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posted by martyb on Tuesday October 18 2016, @10:39PM   Printer-friendly
from the doing-it-with-mirrors dept.

Hearings on the potential construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), opposed by native and environmental activists, begin on October 18th:

If you are going to spend more than a billion dollars building one of the world's biggest telescopes, you'll want to put it in a place with the best possible view of the stars. But in the case of the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT), an instrument that promises unprecedented images of everything from the most distant galaxies to nearby exoplanets, builders may have to settle for second best.

Next week, the fierce legal and cultural battle that has engulfed efforts to build the TMT on Mauna Kea, a 4207-meter-high peak in Hawaii, will reignite as state officials open a pivotal hearing on whether to allow construction. The peak is rated as the best observing site in the Northern Hemisphere, but for Native Hawaiians it is sacred land, and many residents oppose the project. "The risk [to the project] is by no means small," says project manager Gary Sanders of the TMT International Observatory in Pasadena, California, and "the cost of delay is significant." So the project is also hedging its bets by considering alternative sites.

There is a wealth of information available on the Thirty-Meter Telescope web site.

Previously:
Protests Temporarily Halt Thirty-Meter Telescope's Construction in Hawaii
Hawaiian Court Revokes Permit for Construction of Thirty-Meter-Telescope


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  • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday October 19 2016, @12:11AM

    by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday October 19 2016, @12:11AM (#415932) Journal

    So, does the government get to take anything, from anyone?http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/absolute-insult-for-st-peters-residents-turfed-out-of-homes-for-westconnex-20161018-gs4xbk.html

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  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:20AM

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:20AM (#415950) Journal

    So, does the government get to take anything, from anyone?

    Do I in turn get to block any project just because I want to? First, there has to be standing to contest the construction or land grab. Apparently, the state of Hawaii has granted standing for this group of native Hawaiians to block construction. Sounds like it was a bad idea, but oh well, it's done.

    Second, even when eminent domain is exercised, it has to adequately compensate for seizure of land. There's no actual ownership nor monetary value here (which kind of makes it no value at all) so it's a legal limbo with nothing like eminent domain for sorting this mess out. It sounds more like someone is exercising their power to block this construction for unrelated political reasons. I don't buy that a few telescopes are violating anyone's sacred territory, but if native Hawaiian groups have been granted the power to block for any reason, then they can. Given that they're blocking this project, it sounds like there's a good chance they'll be blocking any construction for at least a generation. Doesn't mean I have to respect them for it though.

    Finally, when society does need infrastructure, it's got to go somewhere. Whining about "progress" still means that large groups of people have needs that aren't being met.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:26AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:26AM (#415952)

      > Sounds like it was a bad idea,

      Sounds like it was a great idea. After decades of trying to have their legal rights recognized they finally achieved a small level of success in a game completely rigged against them.

      > There's no actual ownership nor monetary value here (which kind of makes it no value at all)

      Yeah, if there isn't a price tag its worthless. Jesus Christ, what are you, a freshman reading ayn rand?

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:56AM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:56AM (#415954) Journal

        Sounds like it was a great idea. After decades of trying to have their legal rights recognized they finally achieved a small level of success in a game completely rigged against them.

        I guess you and they have never heard of the term, Pyrrhic victory [wikipedia.org]. They will no doubt be able to block any further construction on Mauna Kea, but that's going to bite them with any other progress they attempt. Sorry, but a telescope is innocuous compared to other privations. And blocking a telescope will going to generate a lot of negative publicity and bite them in other ways.

        Yeah, if there isn't a price tag its worthless.

        Pretty much. It's amazing how little people are willing to pay for priceless things, isn't it?

        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @02:19AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @02:19AM (#415962)

          > They will no doubt be able to block any further construction on Mauna Kea, but that's going to bite them with any other progress they attempt.

          You sure think you know a lot about local hawaiian politics. I am kama`aina, what are you?

          > Pretty much. It's amazing how little people are willing to pay for priceless things, isn't it?

          Woooosh!

          I take it back, you aren't an ayn rand acolyte, you are autistic.

          • (Score: 2) by captain normal on Wednesday October 19 2016, @03:56AM

            by captain normal (2205) on Wednesday October 19 2016, @03:56AM (#415990)

            He aha kou makemake hoahanau? Oukou makemake i ke kala no ka mea ole? Kahi iʻoukou i ko lākou kūkulu i ka na telescopes i laila? Hana oe i ike ke aloha?

            --
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          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @05:11AM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @05:11AM (#416013) Journal

            You sure think you know a lot about local hawaiian politics. I am kama`aina, what are you?

            I'm someone who heard about Hawaiians standing up to the Feds from fully controlling security screening for Hawaii airports back in late 2003 because terrorists. As far as I know, that made you unique among hundreds of airports throughout the US. That took serious balls.

            Now, you're burning political capital on a single telescope. Think about it. I don't need to know local politics in detail to know that someone here is wasting their strength. The point has been made. It's time for the placatory gesture to seal what gain has been made.

            Finally, unless you plan to build a better telescope (or something of comparable value) in its place, there is nothing you will ever do on or for that mountain that will be more worthy. Surely, there's a way to respect the mountain and benefit mankind at the same time.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @05:29AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @05:29AM (#416024) Journal

              for Hawaii airports back in late 2003

              Excuse me, late 2002. I'm off by a year.

            • (Score: 2) by http on Wednesday October 19 2016, @06:00AM

              by http (1920) on Wednesday October 19 2016, @06:00AM (#416037)

              The telescope is not the issue "political capital" is being spent on.

              there is nothing you will ever do on or for that mountain that will be more worthy

              The importance the Hawaiians place on the peak of Mauna Kea has exactly zero to do with your parochial notions of worth. Please, do yourself a favour and be quiet for a moment. If you are tempted to respond, first answer for yourself this short essay question: who is traditionally allowed to visit the peak, when, and for what reason?
              Beaking on about this while openly admitting ignorance of the regional politics...wow. If you had half a brain, you'd be looking for the other half.

              --
              I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @06:24AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @06:24AM (#416045) Journal
                So are you going to stop fucking around and tell me, or should I continue to not care? I'm really getting tired of this bullshit.
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:17PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:17PM (#416113)

                  > should I continue to not care?

                  If only you would so completely not care that you would stop running your mouth like your opinion was grounded in anything more than selfish ignorance.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:47PM

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:47PM (#416123) Journal

                    If only you would so completely not care that you would stop running your mouth like your opinion was grounded in anything more than selfish ignorance.

                    I notice there have supposedly been several defenders of the Hawaiian side in this conversation. And yet not one word of why they're here. I'd just like a simple explanation of what supposedly is going on beyond the superficial story. It remains that this telescope looks pretty important to me, but it would work almost as well in a few other locations. So it's not the end of the world if it has to be built somewhere else, or even not at all. Still looks a hell of a lot more important than anything else going on in this story.

                    And yes, "don't care" remains my default position, if we're just going to continue to play rhetorical games.

              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by weeds on Wednesday October 19 2016, @12:43PM

                by weeds (611) on Wednesday October 19 2016, @12:43PM (#416104) Journal

                Yea, so I did some research. Now you can't throw your, "I'm Hawaiian, and you don't know shit." at me.
                "Visiting Maunakea is an adventure—one that allows us to step back in time in the realm of the gods of the Hawaiian people."
                "...Mauna O Wakea—the mountain of the god Wakea, from whom all things in Hawaii are descended."

                Those who believe in mythology standing in the way of those who want to learn more about how things really work. This is an age old story.

                I can't say it any better, "Religion Poisons Everything."

                • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:19PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 19 2016, @01:19PM (#416115)

                  > I can't say it any better, "Religion Poisons Everything."

                  If that's the best way you can say it then obviously you don't know jackshit about the role of religion.
                  You've made anti-theism your religion and are an embarrassment to serious atheists.

                  • (Score: 2) by weeds on Wednesday October 19 2016, @03:01PM

                    by weeds (611) on Wednesday October 19 2016, @03:01PM (#416159) Journal

                    Indeed, anti-theism is my religion. Much the same as not-running is my sport.

                    Anyone can open any history book and read all about the role of religion.