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While the UK and much of the world struggles with overcrowded prisons, the Netherlands has the opposite problem. It is actually short of people to lock up. In the past few years 19 prisons have closed down and more are slated for closure next year. How has this happened - and why do some people think it's a problem?
...
"In the Dutch service we look at the individual," says Van der Spoel."If somebody has a drug problem we treat their addiction, if they are aggressive we provide anger management, if they have got money problems we give them debt counselling. So we try to remove whatever it was that caused the crime. The inmate himself or herself must be willing to change but our method has been very effective. Over the last 10 years, our work has improved more and more."
He adds that some persistent offenders - known in the trade as "revolving-door criminals" - are eventually given two-year sentences and tailor-made rehabilitation programmes. Fewer than 10% then return to prison after their release. In England and Wales, and in the United States, roughly half of those serving short sentences reoffend within two years, and the figure is often higher for young adults.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 12 2016, @12:28AM
Well - the thing is, the US and UK view prisons as an income. In the US especially, we have contracted with prisons to keep their beds filled. We lock people up for minor offenses - a month first time, six months next time, a year of prison next time around, then five years. Most of these clowns who get locked up were just young idiots who did something stupid. Getting caught with a joint was often the first "offense". The young jackass never should have been locked up - ticket the little jerk, and let him come to court to talk to the judge. "Young man, marijuana is illegal, and you've got to pay for having marijuana in your possession. You'll do 160 hours community service, and take a course in drug abuse. You'll be fined $500, but I'll suspend that portion of your sentence if you stay out of trouble."
That is the sort of sentence most first time offenders need - even second and third timers. When they've worn out the easy, friendly approach, then they can go into a county facility. Pubilc intoxication? Something like that should NEVER become a state prison sentence. It's a county problem caused by a county resident, keep it in the county.
The LAST thing we want to do is to put these punks into a prison, where real criminals train them to be criminals. Those kids need to be out in the community, working, and earning their food, shelter, clothing, etc.
Our whole problem is, prison for profit. REAL criminals can't be housed in prison for proper prison terms, because the prisons are filled with cash-flow convicts.
We simply do it all wrong. Our supposed "Land of the Free" imprisons more people than most of the rest of the earth's governments - combined. The US and UK are pretty screwed up in that way.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 12 2016, @01:02AM
even easier, give someone a civil fine. If they can't pay it in 10 days, then give them a $2000 "administration and late" fee. Whoa... can't pay that in 15? Oh, we're sorry, you're already late anyways! Off to jail.
oh, wait. There are areas in the US already doing this.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 12 2016, @10:27AM
You are describing a debtor's prison system. Again, prison for profit. We need to drop the whole idea of anyone profiting from your screw ups. The "bad boys" need to pay back what they owe, but they don't go deeper and deeper into hell for failure to pay a fine, or whatever. At some point, most of them just give up, and stop even trying to become a contributing member of society. We need to learn some lessons from the European systems.
On the other hand, we don't punish the real criminals harshly enough. So - we have some screwup who insists on digging himself deeper and deeper into the dungeon. We've coddled him a little at the beginning, we gotten stricter in stages, and he insists on hurting everyone around him - financially, physically, sexually, psychologically he hurts everyone he knows.
THAT sumbitch needs a life without parole sentence, that means exactly what it says. Rapists, for example. We've got a tangled web of definitions of rape, but just ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of a brutal rape that leaves the victim dead, or suffering for life, gets the death sentence. Some things don't merit any kind of coddling.
Stop prison for profit, and get down to business punishing those who commit heinous crimes.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday November 12 2016, @12:41PM
Sometimes the potential penalties for marijuana possession while possessing a legal firearm but not using it, or have it involved in any way other than legally possessing it, have been worse than USING AN ATOMIC WEAPON!
From: Federal Mandatory Minimums List (link is to a PDF) http://famm.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Chart-All-Fed-MMs-NW.pdf [famm.org]
42 USC § 2272(b);
§ 2M6.1
Using, attempting to use, or threatening while possessing, an atomic weapon
2004
30 years
1. Christopher Williams
A Montana medical marijuana provider is facing 82 to 85 years behind bars, due to mandatory minimum laws linked to some of his charges. Convicted of crimes like manufacturing marijuana, intent to distribute and possession of a firearm during a drug trafficking offense, Christopher Williams appeared to be in the for the worst. But in a rare move this September, U.S. Attorney Michael Cotter offered to drop four of Williams’ charges and bring his sentencing down to “as little as 10 years,” so long as Williams waived his right to appeal.
(Williams refused the offer on moral grounds. He ended up with 5 years. They dropped the charges for possessing a legal weapon in an open-carry state.)
2. Will Foster
US Army veteran and business-owner Will Foster was suffering from widespread rheumatoid arthritis when he started growing marijuana. In 1997, Oklahoma police discovered his marijuana garden and just $28 cash after a “confidential informant” helped them procure a “John Doe” search warrant for methamphetamine. His sentence was reduced to 20 years (His original sentence, brace yourself...was 93 years for 50 plants!) and he was paroled to California in 2001. The Oklahoma Department of Corrections was unhappy when Foster completed parole, and attempted to extradite him back to Oklahoma — a fight Foster won.
But in 2008, Foster’s marijuana grow, legal by California standards, was raided. Foster sat in a California jail for a year before local authorities dropped the charges. Unfortunately for Foster, Oklahoma officials showed up at the Calif. jail, shackled Foster and drove him back to Oklahoma, where he remained until he was released in late November 2009. (Cops had a real hard-on for this guy. He ended up in jail for 12 years!)
3. Jonathan Magbie
Jonathan Magbie’s story is a stunning example of the cruelty that can accompany an arrest for medical marijuana. Paralyzed from the neck down after being hit by a drunk driver at the age of four, Magpie was charged with marijuana possession in 2004 after cops found a joint and a (legal) loaded gun in a vehicle (not Jonathan's gun however, he's quadriplegic) in which he was the passenger. Though he had never been convicted of a criminal offense and required medical assistance 20 hours a day, he was given a 10-day sentence in a DC jail. With no ventilator to sustain his breathing, he died in jail four days later. (Death sentence for a fucking JOINT!)
Additions in parenthesis are mine.
I validated each example with several sources, just google name and marijuana convictions, don't want to deal with a bunch of links.
Yep, that's definitely justice.
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday November 12 2016, @12:49PM
I think I got the total on Will fosters total incarceration wrong, I couldn't find an exact total however I think it was only about 8 total, forgot about the parole, it's 5a.m. and I'm stoned.
Damn, I was trying to be accurate...good ganja....
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 12 2016, @04:30AM
160 hours? I'd tell the judge to send me to jail. Jail is nice. You get a bed, three meals a day, and all the books you can read. If you like to play spades, chess, rummy, work out or rap you'll have plenty to do.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 12 2016, @04:50AM
also plenty to do if you like the cock
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 12 2016, @10:30AM
But, it's not your option. It's SOCIETY'S option. No, we don't WANT your lazy ass in a prison cell, watching television all day. You are going down to the park this week, and put in 40 hours of hard manual labor, making the park pretty for our law-abiding citizens to enjoy. Next week, you'll be out picking up litter along the highway for another 40 hours. Following week, you're going to help the highway maintenance crew, shoveling macadam into pot holes. Your last week, we'll send you back to the park to chop more briars and weeds out of the meadows.
You want to sit in a comfy cell? You can kiss my ass, and the asses of all taxpayers.
(Score: 2, Informative) by kc on Saturday November 12 2016, @05:18PM
This idea has already been tried. It is literally slavery as punishment for a crime. And it is still for-profit and therefore it would be abused to provide cheap labor for either public property or for private companies.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 13 2016, @12:37AM
First - define "slavery". No, this is NOT slavery. This is more like bond servitude. Bond servitude and slavery are remotely related, for sure, in that a person is deprived of some freedoms in either case. But, a bond servant has a lot more freedoms than either a slave, OR a person in prison. A bond servant gets to go home at night, see his family, go to a movie, enjoy social and/or sexual intercourse - the list goes on.
Bond servitude is vastly preferable to our current prison system. Vastly.
And, the whole pupose of this exercise, is to ensure that people learn to WANT TO WORK, and WANT TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE!!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 14 2016, @10:24AM
And how do you enforce that? Send me to jail if I don't comply?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday November 14 2016, @02:50PM
First - you would go to jail, as you ask, and not to a for-profit prison.
Second - you would NOT like any jail that I was in charge of. See, no work, no eat. You'll scrub the jail house from top to bottom, front to bad, and side to side, wax the floors, and wash the windows BEFORE breakfast is served. People who have lived in barracks know what I mean.
When breakfast is served, you'll think of Sheriff Joe in Arizona. A slice of cold balogna, two slices of bread, and a glass of water.
After breakfast, you will be permitted to go outside, cut the grass, trim the hedges, and whatever other work might be assigned.
Again, lunch won't be served until the assigned tasks are finished.
Lunch will consist of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a glass of water. But, you can drink all the water you want.
After lunch more chores. We're going to keep you busy, boy. No, you don't really HAVE TO WORK. You can refuse. And, we will refuse you dinner as well.
It's your choice. We don't have to feed the deadweight of society. Pull your weight, and we'll feed you. Don't pull your weight, and we'll allow you to lie in bed, comfortably, as you starve yourself to death.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 14 2016, @11:31PM
Wow, that's BETTER food than jail! Breakfast is usually oatmeal, frozen apples, and water + "milk", lunch is really shitty fake bologna/salami/ham depending on the day + horrible koolaid mix (seriously the only ingredients are strange chemicals and food coloring, and it will stain concrete, I always save them and trade or gamble them), dinner is soy-based fake food with more koolaid. Peanut butter and jelly comes once a week, and I would save the peanut butter packs and trade other stuff for them because it's the most filling and nutritious food available. Second, haha, "cruel and unusual punishment". Coerced labor and starvation is definitely cruel. The way jail already works is that trustees (those prisoners who choose to work, or rather, don't refuse when they are assigned to work), have special priveleges (reduced time, some of them get paid or get discounts on commisary, some of them get access to outside and smuggle contraband) and there are WAITING lists, because there's not enough work to go around. If you wanted to put this into action you'd have to dramatically reduce the number of inmates or the increase the number of jails.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday November 15 2016, @01:31AM
Don't worry, the food offered will be marginally nutritious. I've heard horror stories about some kinda fake meatloaf crap - supposed to have all the vitamins and minerals, but even a starving man thinks twice about eating it. The thing is, you won't GET food if you won't work.
There will be work to do, I promise, for everyone. The floor may be gleaming, but you can always scrub it again. Think "boot camp". Pointless labor to fill the time. White glove inspections at any time. Even the bars on the cells will gleam. Everyone will be a trustee in my jail, because everyone will work. Police cars need to be washed, maybe two or three times a day.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by driverless on Saturday November 12 2016, @09:28AM
Getting caught with a joint was often the first "offense". The young jackass never should have been locked up - ticket the little jerk, and let him come to court to talk to the judge. "Young man, marijuana is illegal, and you've got to pay for having marijuana in your possession. You'll do 160 hours community service, and take a course in drug abuse. You'll be fined $500, but I'll suspend that portion of your sentence if you stay out of trouble."
"Young man, you're sentenced to 160 hours community service for wasting police and court time making us prosecute you for something as insignificant as owning a bit of weed. Next time for fscks sake don't get caught so we can focus on catching actual criminals".
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday November 12 2016, @10:32AM
LOL - you've changed the focus a little bit, but we're on the same page. Laws are being passed all around this country, decriminalizing marijuana. I love that. It never made sense to pay cops to chase stupid kids who just want to "feel good". Stupid, stupid, stupid.
(Score: 2) by Pslytely Psycho on Saturday November 12 2016, @11:59AM
"Well - the thing is, the US and UK view prisons as an income."
The very root of the problem.
From the 2014 Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) annual report:
The demand for our facilities and services could be adversely affected by the relaxation of enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction or parole standards and sentencing practices or through the decriminalization of certain activities that are currently proscribed by our criminal laws. For instance, any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them ... Legislation has been proposed in numerous jurisdictions that could lower minimum sentences for some non-violent crimes and make more inmates eligible for early release based on good behavior.
Although, the message is part of a larger report basically informing shareholders of the risk of outside events that may impact profitability, it shows that legalization of marijuana and lowering sentencing for minor offenses is a concern to them. It's easier just to put them in a cell and make them work as basically, a slave labor force. I didn't realize how much stuff is made by prisoners. I found out researching a joke I was going to make on this article about who would make our license plates, and found out that not only are a lot of plates made in prisons, but every thing from lingerie to canoes. If we can get the money out of the system, then rehabilitation becomes a public interest.
Then there's a chance for improvement.
I'm rambling, it's 04:00 and I have a good buzz on...
Alex Jones lawyer inspires new TV series: CSI Moron Division.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 13 2016, @05:25AM
Community service is generally not free; there is a fee or per-hour charge, and it can be fairly stiff, several hundred dollars if not more.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Sunday November 13 2016, @07:35PM
It all depends on where you are, how it actually works in reality. A judge might argue that you owe $500 and that you can work it off at fifty dollars per day - and award you ten days of community service. What it all boils down to is, you have performed 80 hours of labor, and you have recieved no cash to put in your pocket. Lawyers are good at using words to imply things that aren't true. The taxman will argue that in exchange for your 80 hours, you were "paid" $500, and he wants his cut, so you're doubly screwed.
(Score: 2) by Reziac on Sunday November 13 2016, @08:37PM
Yeah, it's highly variable. In Los Angeles County, it costs you something like $5 for each hour of "community service" plus a service fee and as a punishment is generally preferred by the courts to straight-up fines, because it brings in more money.
And there is no Alkibiades to come back and save us from ourselves.