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posted by janrinok on Friday December 30 2016, @03:17PM   Printer-friendly
from the optimism-is-wonderful dept.

A group of Mexican farmer leaders and academics believe that U.S. President-elect Donald Trump's pledge to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA, will be a good opportunity to review areas of the treaty that are not favorable to the sector in Mexico.

Experts say that after 23 years of its implementation, NAFTA, signed by Mexico, the United States and Canada in the early 90s, has helped dismantle Mexico's agricultural production system through neoliberal policies that have left millions of poor farmers without state support and have increased the country's food dependency on aboard, La Jornada reported Tuesday.

Since his presidential campaign, Trump has vowed to force Canada and Mexico to negotiate the trade deal saying it has been detrimental to the manufacturing industry in the United States, sending shocking waves of uncertainty for the already weakened Mexican economy.

[...] In the years that have followed the NAFT signing, the Mexican government has sold itself as a pro-business and lower-cost alternative for U.S. companies and in the process became a manufacturing powerhouse of cars, computers, aerospace technology and televisions.

However, the modernization process also helped dismantle the national agricultural system, which has practically disappeared, according to analysts and producers.

Source: teleSUR


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 30 2016, @04:00PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 30 2016, @04:00PM (#447465) Journal

    Very few people in the US were enriched by NAFTA.

    Even fewer people in Mexico had their lives improved by NAFTA.

    In comparison, I think slightly more people in Canada may have benefitted from NAFTA - but the numbers are still exceedingly small.

    ONLY RICH BASTARDS BENEFITTED FROM NAFTA!!

    Mexican Farmers see an opportunity to better their lot? More power to them. Maybe, just maybe, if they succeed, the flood of invaders will be stemmed.

    Starting Score:    1  point
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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 30 2016, @04:53PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 30 2016, @04:53PM (#447487)

    "ONLY RICH BASTARDS BENEFITED" That's the way D.C. works.

  • (Score: 1) by RS3 on Friday December 30 2016, @05:33PM

    by RS3 (6367) on Friday December 30 2016, @05:33PM (#447500)

    Very few people in the US were enriched by NAFTA.

    I respectfully disagree- there are millions here in the USA who have been freed from mundane jobs. I call that a win.

    /sarcasm

  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday December 30 2016, @05:48PM

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday December 30 2016, @05:48PM (#447508)

    Given their latitude, you would think that "solar powered production" like farming would be a profitable pursuit in Mexico - all else being equal.

    Personally, I'd rather see the Mexicans in Mexico, with their families, producing food for domestic consumption and export, instead of working the migrant scene in the U.S. - if that means that our farmers have to pay a bit more for labor, and we have to pay a bit more for food, I'd much rather do that instead of paying for the health, education and welfare of the migrant farm workers.

    Unfortunately, everyone pays for health, education and welfare, while a shift in the price of oranges or corn hits a specific few squarely in the wallet, and those few are very experienced at the lobbying game.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: -1, Troll) by Ethanol-fueled on Friday December 30 2016, @09:11PM

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Friday December 30 2016, @09:11PM (#447604) Homepage

      If Mexicans should be anything, it's farmers. Their primitive state of being is well-suited to using the land for subsistence. You can see it in their culture, they sure to love their farm-animals, especially in humor and the Spanish language cartoons and textbooks for non-Spanish native speakers.

      As loud people who cram 4 generations of a family into a single dwelling and breed uncontrollably, they would never be short of farm hands and their fiestas don't disturb their neighbors like they do in the 'States. And if there's one thing they do spectacularly well besides their donkey-shows, it's their food.

      Make it so!

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 30 2016, @08:25PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 30 2016, @08:25PM (#447585)

    Very few people in the US were enriched by NAFTA.
    Even fewer people in Mexico had their lives improved by NAFTA.
    In comparison, I think slightly more people in Canada may have benefitted from NAFTA - but the numbers are still exceedingly small.

    And where do you pull these hand-waving numbers out of? Right. If no one benefited, like you believe, then where did 50% increased trade with Canada come from? Since NAFTA, trade between US and Canada has increased faster than GDP.

    Just last year, bought a pool in Minnesota and hauled it up to Canada. Paid tax on the border but no duty, because NAFTA. Companies can exist north and south of the border and haul intermediaries between the two without paying bullshit duties.

    If Trump wants to renegotiate it, sure, add environmental protection requirements to it, add worker rights requirements (like CETA did), add comparable wage requirements, etc.. but I suspect Trump is not exactly going to be positive and progressive like that. He'll just scrap it and screw everyone over.

    http://www.cfr.org/trade/naftas-economic-impact/p15790 [cfr.org]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday December 30 2016, @10:40PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday December 30 2016, @10:40PM (#447636) Journal

      Where do I pull numbers from?

      Fifty million or more illegal aliens flooding into the United States, because their family lands have been stolen out from under them. (That was key to NAFTA, Mexico had to make it legal for foreigners to own land in Mexico.)

      Seventy or more million US citizens out of work because of NAFTA and similar trade agreements.

      In the late 80's early 90's, I drove truck, back and forth across the US-Canadian border. No duties. No tarrifs. I worked for a Canadian company, with operations in the US and Canada. The stuff I hauled went from plant to plant, one side of the border or the other. We almost never carried finished goods across the border, because that was assessed by Customs, but our partly finished products flowed freely each way. The trade has always been there - you are merely telling me that you are in on part of the trade now.

      And, you WILL notice that I said Canada came out better in this deal that either Mexico or the US. Mexico bleeds people that they can't support, the US bleeds jobs, and Canada just keeps Canucking along. Not a bad deal for Canada, ehh?

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:34AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:34AM (#447710)

        Fifty million or more illegal aliens flooding into the United States

        Lol. That number? Straight outta your ass. As if illegal immigrants have anything to do with NAFTA. They are illegal for fuck's sake, they don't need laws to immigrate illegally. If anything, NAFTA reduced the number of illegal immigrants because they could get jobs in Mexico doing work that was previously done in the US.

        Seventy or more million US citizens out of work

        Did you just goatse.cx yourself? Because your asshole must be gaping in order to pull a number that big out of it.

        70 million people is nearly half the entire labor force. [bls.gov]
        Your bullshit does not pass the laugh test.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:22AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:22AM (#447705)

    > ONLY RICH BASTARDS BENEFITTED FROM NAFTA!!

    Where's your proof? Don't just say "everybody knows" because that's just wishful thinking.
    Just because money didn't flow over the border into your bank account doesn't mean you did not benefit.

    Pretty much everybody benefited except the very bottom rungs - manual laborers without a high-school education. The kinds of people who do the shittiest of the shit factory jobs. Those people got screwed. Everybody else benefited by having access to cheaper goods. Every time they bought food grown in mexico, clothing made in mexico or electronics assembled in mexico the money they saved was money that stayed in their bank account.

    Furthermore, increased US exports created 5 million jobs. Few of those jobs went to people without high school diplomas, they were still fucked. But skilled labor and white collar employees benefited from all the increased exports.

    Here's a high level analysis of the pros and cons of NAFTA. [thebalance.com]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:36AM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:36AM (#447711) Journal

      Proof? The flood of people leaving Mexico when they realized how badly they had been screwed. The millions of US citizens out of work today.

      Figures don't lie, but liars figure. Pay a fool enough, and he can manipulate numbers to say anything you want them to say. Go to Mexico, and look at the quality of life. Between NAFTA and the drug cartels, Mexico positively sucks today. Don't take my word for it though. Go look for yourself. Or, maybe you'll take these people's word for it?

      http://www.borderlandbeat.com/ [borderlandbeat.com]

      WARNING TO SHELTERED SPECIAL SNOWFLAKES!!! If you scroll down that page far enough, you WILL find graphic images that will turn your stomach.

      (hey, it's Christmas season - I had to click to page two to find a photo of a body, and this one is tidily wrapped up in garbage bags.)

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @02:00AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @02:00AM (#447722)

        So anyone with actual numbers is a liar.
        The only truth is whatever you take on faith.

        Runaway you truly are a modern man, you were post-factual before it was trendy!

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:11AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:11AM (#447733) Journal

          The Clinton White House cited numbers like 12 million. The Bush White House set the figure at 20 million, in it's first administration. The O'Bummer White House released a number like 11 million at some point in time. More reliable sources state quite simply that nobody knows - they are undocumented. The ridiculous numbers of 11, 12, or even 15 million are incredible. Add in the fact that many come here illegally, stay for however many years they choose, then go home - only to be replaced by more people crossing the border illegally. Add in those who come here illegally, return to Mexico, then come here illegally AGAIN. I'll wager that there have been 100,000,000 illegal border crossings since Bush was sworn in. Probaby another 25,000,000 while Clinton was president.

          Your Homeland SEcurity asswipes refuse to admit that there are any criminals among the illegal aliens, and they refuse to release credible numbers, in addition to refusing to round up any criminals. How, exactly, do you expect to find reliable numbers?

          My numbers are at least as good as this administration's numbers, because I go back to past administrations to find reference numbers. None of them are nearly high enough. Clinton kinda sorta thought that the police had identified 11 million illegals - but those are ONLY the ones they thought they could count. By their nature, illegals are difficult to count.

          Cumulatively, over the course of the Clinton, Bush, and Obama administrations, not less than 50 million illegal aliens have entered the US. Possibly as many as 125 million.

          You want better numbers? Well, I'd appreciate if you could find and share a CREDIBLE source.

          Want some real news from the border? http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2013/01/risking-their-lives-from-desperation.html [borderlandbeat.com]

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:23AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:23AM (#447736)

            WTF are you talking about?
            I was talking about the number of skilled jobs due to exports.
            You? I dunno, drunk maybe?

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 31 2016, @04:27AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 31 2016, @04:27AM (#447750) Journal

              Oh - so - you're one of those elitests, who don't care that Joe Smith's kid isn't fit for much more than digging ditches. If Smith wanted his kid to have a *good job* he would have sent the kid to college.

              Except - you don't seem to have noticed that somewhat educated people in the tech industries are beginning to complain about the very same thing. Even college educated software and web "engineers" are being replaced by selected people brought in from India and other places.

              As for "skills" - carpentry is a skill. It takes a couple years apprenticeship before you can even try to claim journeyman status. And, carpenters were among the first to be hit by the illegal alien influx. Concrete workers were right up there with the carpeneters.

              What world are you living in, where illegal aliens only do unskilled labor?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @06:37AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @06:37AM (#447779)

                So drunk it is then?

                Because NAFTA has got shit all to do with illegal aliens.

                Its like the drinking has let loose your seething racism and its all blurred together in an alcoholic rage about the brown.

                You could make an argument about NAFTA sending low skilled jobs going south of the border. But I already made that one up thread.

                Carpentry? Concrete? None of those jobs were affected by NAFTA. If anything, NAFTA's benefits to the upper and middle classes contributed to the demand for new construction causing increased employment in construction.

                • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 31 2016, @08:02AM

                  by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 31 2016, @08:02AM (#447794) Journal

                  Science suggests that some brains are the densest material on earth.

                  Which part of "NAFTA and the drug wars destroyed Mexico's economy" do you fail to understand? Mexicans flood across the border, but WHY? They have always trickled across, but suddenly they are a torrent. WHY? The answers are NAFTA and the drug wars. When a rather stable economy all but collapses soon after some pie-in-the-sky trade agreement, you just might suspect some kind of correlation.

                  To be fair, we can't blame it all on NAFTA. The drug wars contribute to Mexico's economic problems. Maybe without the drug wars, NAFTA wouldn't be such a terrible thing for their economy. But, reality is what it is. As a result of NAFTA, millions of Mexicans are no longer able to support themselvs in Mexico, so they come north looking for something better.

                  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/04/24/mexico-loosens-restrictions-on-foreigners-buying-property.html [foxnews.com]

                  Foreingners are colonizing Mexico. Read that carefully - Mexico is an economic colony of corporate masters, primarily US corporations.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:41PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @01:41PM (#447841)

                    So NAFTA is bad for everybody except the 1%ers in all 3 countries.
                    Because NAFTA made it possible to increase profits while simultaneously reducing demand for labor.
                    Your underpants gnome logic is impeccable!

                    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:15PM

                      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:15PM (#447860) Journal

                      Alright, smart guy - who should profit off of treaties and agreements? Does the world actually belong to the 1%? Is that the correct way of looking at things? Streamline the profiteering of the 1%, and cull most of the remaining 99% to live on the dole? Where does that kind of thinking lead? I really don't now where that road leads ultimately, but along the way, the idle masses are going to wreck the 1% mansions, yachts, private planes, ocean front properties, etc. What do you really think an idle population is going to do with it's time? Look at the inner cities today, and imagine that crap spreading all across the country.

                      I guess some people like gangs of thugs roaming their neighborhoods.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:34AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 31 2016, @03:34AM (#447738)

            The (white) people who hire them are committing a crime.
            Jail ALL of the people breaking the law.
            Problem solved.

            N.B. Not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.
            Reagan stopped enforcing the law and no chief executive since has had the balls to start again.

            -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]