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from the is-Howard-Stern-listening-in-on-you? dept.
A recent techdirt article says that
Thomas Fox-Brewster of Forbes is taking a closer look at a decade-plus of in-car surveillance, courtesy of electronics and services manufacturers are installing in as many cars as possible.
Following the news that cops are trying to sweat down an Amazon Echo in hopes of hearing murder-related conversations, it's time to revisit the eavesdropping that's gone on for years prior to today's wealth of in-home recording devices.
One of the more recent examples can be found in a 2014 warrant that allowed New York police to trace a vehicle by demanding the satellite radio and telematics provider SiriusXM provide location information.
In this case, SiriusXM complied by turning on its "stolen vehicle recovery" mode, which allowed law enforcement to track the vehicle for ten days. SiriusXM told Forbes it only does this in response to search warrants and court orders. That may be the case for real-time tracking, but any location information captured and stored by SiriusXM can be had with nothing more than a subpoena, as this info is normally considered a third-party record.
It's not just satellite radio companies allowing cops to engage in surreptitious tracking. OnStar and other in-vehicle services have been used by law enforcement to eavesdrop on personal conversations between drivers and passengers.
In at least two cases, individuals unwittingly had their conversations listened in on by law enforcement. In 2001, OnStar competitor ATX Technologies (which later became part of Agero) was ordered to provide "roving interceptions" of a Mercedes Benz S430V. It initially complied with the order in November of that year to spy on audible communications for 30 days, but when the FBI asked for an extension in December, ATX declined, claiming it was overly burdensome.
The 2001 case didn't end well for law enforcement. It wasn't that the court had an issue with the eavesdropping, but rather that the act of listening in limited the functionality of the in-car tech, which the court found to be overly-burdensome.
[...] Law enforcement may find encryption to be slowing things down in terms of accessing cell phone contents, but everything else -- from in-car electronics to the Internet of Things -- is playing right into their hands.
-- submitted from IRC
(Score: 2, Disagree) by Unixnut on Friday January 20 2017, @06:51PM
Cheap East European cars, or Chinese. Things like the Dacia are still relatively "electronic crap" free because they are aimed at the budget conscious buyer, who isn't looking for fancy stuff. Not sure if they are sold in the US though (assuming you are in the US).
Failing that, stick to cars from the 90s and 80s. Technology has advanced to the point where cars such as those can be maintained for a long time relatively easily. Also helps that cars during that period were better built (designed to last, rather than be consumable fashion statements on wheels to be replaced every 3 years like modern ones).
If however in future we reach the point that IC cars are banned and only electric cars are allowed, we will be in trouble, because no electric car has been built without all the electronic spyware. Not sure what to do in that future scenario, but I think we have quite a few decades before IC car bans become realistic. By then maybe everything has collapsed and it won't matter anymore.
(Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Friday January 20 2017, @07:12PM
> [...] no electric car has been built without all the electronic spyware.
I disagree.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/30/business/bob-beaumont-who-popularized-electric-cars-dies-at-79.html [nytimes.com]
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Friday January 20 2017, @08:41PM
Nice! Thanks for the link. Although I guess I should have said "modern electric cars". With its design, and only 40mph top speed, I don't think that would even be allowed on public roads here in Europe. Still, very nice.
I guess if push comes to shove people can build/assemble their own cars, but that is going to be one hell of a niche. Most people would not want to do anything like that.
(Score: 2) by butthurt on Saturday January 21 2017, @03:06AM
> [...] I guess I should have said "modern electric cars".
The Nissan Leaf is modern, yet in the USA the cellular network that earlier models used for its telematics is being dismantled:
Just got a letter from Nissan. I assumed it was about the security flaws in NissanConnectEV (formerly Carwings).
Instead, it detailed once again, how At&T's 2G network is going away at the end of 2016.
-- https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/48d2mb/nissan_will_pay_for_upgrade_once_2g_is/ [reddit.com]
The Leaf has also been sold in Europe and Japan; perhaps similar events will occur there as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf [wikipedia.org]
Of course, any self-respecting surveillance state will operate "stingray" (cell site simulator) devices.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/08/23/baltimore-police-stingray-cell-surveillance/31994181/ [usatoday.com]
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2016/dec/02/virginia-state-police-release-cellphone-surveillan/ [muckrock.com]
> I guess if push comes to shove people can build/assemble their own cars [...]
I'm under the impression that it's more common for people to retrofit ICE cars for electric operation. Kits are sold for doing so, or one can acquire the parts separately.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday January 21 2017, @09:40AM
Very interesting stuff, thanks for the links!
> The Nissan Leaf is modern, yet in the USA the cellular network that earlier models used for its telematics is being dismantled:
Yes, but I am sure that if push comes to shove it can be re-enabled on a local level. Like you mentioned, you can get portable cell simulators. However that at least will require the police to put some effort into tracking you, so more likely to be used if they already have a case against you, rather than blanket simlation
> I'm under the impression that it's more common for people to retrofit ICE cars for electric operation. Kits are sold for doing so, or one can acquire the parts separately.
Good point, that is quite likely, although ICE cars have issues with conversion, such as battery placement. Due to the lower energy density of batteries, you need more volume of space in the car to reach an acceptable range than the fuel tank occupied.
However I have already seen "future car" designs which are basically in kit form, and you decide how you want it to look. Such as this one:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a16726/local-motors-strati-roadster-test-drive/ [popularmechanics.com]
Somehow I think it will be easier for people to buy such kits, assemble and get their kind of custom body built for it, then it is to retrofit cars that really were not designed for such power trains originally.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 20 2017, @07:23PM
You build a ~~wall~~ cage around your car and move like this all the time.
(Score: 3, Troll) by Grishnakh on Friday January 20 2017, @07:58PM
Also helps that cars during that period were better built (designed to last, rather than be consumable fashion statements on wheels to be replaced every 3 years like modern ones).
Wow, that's one hell of an idiotic statement. Cars these days last far longer than cars ever did in the 80s. They also protect you far better in a crash, accelerate much faster, and get better fuel economy. Cars didn't last to 250k miles back in the 80s; now it's not that unusual (for a 00s car; the 10s cars aren't quite old enough).
(Score: 2, Troll) by Unixnut on Friday January 20 2017, @08:38PM
> Wow, that's one hell of an idiotic statement. Cars these days last far longer than cars ever did in the 80s.
Disagree completely. Look at an 80s Mercedes, compared to a post 2000's one. If you have taken one of them apart (I have taken apart both), the earlier model is far better built. Likewise for BMWs and Porsche's of the era. I guess if you buy a shit car in the 80s it won't last long, but then, if you buy a shit car now it won't last long either.
In an effort to reduce costs, extract profit, and build in obsolescence, cars now are built far more poorly than old cars. This is a fact that anyone who has worked in the automotive industry has told you, it isn't even a secret really.
Coupled with the fact the most common failure in cars is the electrics, the more electrics and computers in cars, the sooner they will fail.
Go to places in the middle east or Africa, you will see cars from the 70s and 80s going strong. I doubt you will see many of the modern cars last that long.
> They also protect you far better in a crash, accelerate much faster, and get better fuel economy. Cars didn't last to 250k miles back in the 80s; now it's not that unusual (for a 00s car; the 10s cars aren't quite old enough).
This is all irrelevant to my point. Although for a given horsepower, they accelerate much slower, because they are much heavier than earlier cars (due to the mandated safety features). They are also harder to stop because of the extra weight, hence why even small cars now need seriously big brakes to maintain the same stopping distance.
I will also point out that one of the reasons early cars are more likely to outlast the later ones is because they are simpler and cheaper to maintain and repair. The technology in them is now commonplace and cheap, so easy to repair and maintain.
Also, 80-90s cars were (mostly) built by humans, so can be disassembled and worked on by humans. Modern cars were built by robots, and are as such harder for humans to work on. Hence the rise in garage labour costs. Things that would take less than an hour take multiple hours on a modern car. Sometimes easier to just pull out a unit, chuck it and buy a new one, than actually get and replace the faulty part out of it.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 20 2017, @08:50PM
My favorite example of cars that cannot be worked on easily was my boss's truck. To replace the serpentine belt (or was it the timing belt?), you had to remove the entire engine. The gap between the engine and the compartment was an inch and the belt was an inch and a half. Suffice to say, the bill he got from the shop to repair the belt was a bit more than he was expecting.
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by Grishnakh on Friday January 20 2017, @10:25PM
Disagree completely. Look at an 80s Mercedes, compared to a post 2000's one. If you have taken one of them apart (I have taken apart both), the earlier model is far better built. Likewise for BMWs and Porsche's of the era. I guess if you buy a shit car in the 80s it won't last long, but then, if you buy a shit car now it won't last long either.
80s German cars are not representative of all cars worldwide, particularly not American cars.
Although for a given horsepower, they accelerate much slower,
Irrelevant. No one makes cars with 90 horsepower these days. Back in the 80s, that was pretty normal for an American compact. These days, a typical compact has at least 150 horsepower, which was considered a lot back in the 80s. The faster ones now have 200+HP, which back then was Corvette territory.
They are also harder to stop because of the extra weight, hence why even small cars now need seriously big brakes to maintain the same stopping distance.
Incredibly stupid. Cars have bigger brakes not only because of higher weight, but also increased standards.
I will also point out that one of the reasons early cars are more likely to outlast the later ones is because they are simpler and cheaper to maintain and repair. The technology in them is now commonplace and cheap, so easy to repair and maintain.
Incredibly stupid. Obviously, you've never had to deal with the rat's nest of vacuum hoses that were commonplace on 80s cars.
You're an absolute idiot. You can see it with cars on the road and how far cars actually go. Cars in the 70s and 80s did NOT last over 100k miles routinely; I was there and I remember. You sound like someone who believes the Earth is 6500 years old despite all available evidence.
(Score: 1, Troll) by Unixnut on Saturday January 21 2017, @02:19AM
> 80s German cars are not representative of all cars worldwide, particularly not American cars.
Well, to be honest I never worked with American cars, maybe they are really poorly built in general or something. Perhaps modern American cars really are better than the old ones. Other makes that I can say has improved since the 80s is Fiat and Lancia. Their cars really rusted easily due to lack of protection (they didn't bother to galvanize the shells).
And my point to the original poster was to buy a decent 80s or 90s car (my preference for German, but Swedish and Japanese are good too) because they are cheaper to keep running, and are overall built better, if with less fancy gadgets and luxuries. You can get really good second hand models, with the benefit that a lot of them actually are appreciating in value, rather than depreciating in value.
> Irrelevant. No one makes cars with 90 horsepower these days. Back in the 80s, that was pretty normal for an American compact. These days, a typical compact has at least 150 horsepower, which was considered a lot back in the 80s. The faster ones now have 200+HP, which back then was Corvette territory.
Well yes, it is about as irrelevant to the conversation as your post on the matter as well, which is where it came from.
Always amazed me how Americans squeeze so little power out of such large engines though. I get that there is a lot of torque, but you run out of ooomph very quickly in the rev range.
> Incredibly stupid. Cars have bigger brakes not only because of higher weight, but also increased standards.
Oh look, an insult. Brake diameter is a variable in the function of stopping power, which are matched to the curb weight of the car. Of course that isn't the only reason (I never said it was), but it is the main reason.
Of course standards have improved, but more in line with things like ABS and electronically controlled braking. Still doesn't change the fact that the bigger discs on cars are primarily due to their larger weight. That is why earlier cars could get away with smaller disk brakes than the same models later. Modern cars are really heavy.
> Incredibly stupid. Obviously, you've never had to deal with the rat's nest of vacuum hoses that were commonplace on 80s cars.
Oh, another insult, Actually I have dealt with them. Many actually, on cars from the 70's to the mid 00's. Vacuum hoses are really quite simple, never found them that taxing to deal with. Also hose is cheap! I found it usually easier to just replace entire sections of vacuum hose rather than find where is is leaking from. The later cars were more of a PITA because the vacuum houses were routed under stupid plastic covers, and packed really tightly in stupid places because there is so much stuff in an engine bay nowadays.
Again, don't know about US cars, maybe their vacuum setups were nuts.
> You're an absolute idiot. You can see it with cars on the road and how far cars actually go. Cars in the 70s and 80s did NOT last over 100k miles routinely; I was there and I remember. You sound like someone who believes the Earth is 6500 years old despite all available evidence.
Right, and more insults. You really could do without them. They don't add to the conversation, and quite frankly do more to put your posts in disrepute than affect me. They just make it look like you are lashing out at me personally to substitute for your lack of a decent argument.
I work a lot with cars, and due to the nature of my business, I see cars from the entire spectrum. There is no denying that cars from the 80s are the easiest to maintain and repair. They were assembled mostly by humans, they are simple, they are basic.
They are easier to maintain and keep on the road for the same reason a go kart would be even easier to maintain and keep on the road (if they were road worthy). This is just plain obvious to anyone who has done engineering, the simpler a system is, the fewer parts that can go wrong, the easier it is to maintain and keep running, so the longer it will last.
And a lot of those 80s cars that came into the shop have seen >100k miles. One '79 Porsche came in with 237k miles on it, which I thought impressive considering sports cars are not really built for reliability but rather performance. Car did need a top end rebuild though to bring its output power back to original.
90s-00s cars are already getting a bit tricky, more robotic assembly, more interconnected electronics and wiring to have to debug. Already turning into a rats nest of wiring and ECUs, all needing special "manufacturer computers" which are nothing more than basic laptops with crappily made software, sold for stupidly large sums of money (give me the vacuum hoses any day instead).
Latest cars I have been working on have been 2005, and already at this point you can't do much to "repair" the car, only buy and replace units and segments. Not worth the time really. Modern cars becoming disposable really. I don't think I will be looking at working on anything newer soon, the ongoing costs for certification and getting the software to debug and trouble shoot is getting too much for an independent. For the prices I would have to charge for that kind of work, people can just go to an authorised dealer. So I may well switch over to just working on the older gen cars, start a restoration business maybe. Will see how things go.
I am not sure if you are overestimating how hard older gen cars are to work on, or underestimating how hard and expensive modern cars are to work on, but I think it is one of those two.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 21 2017, @10:54PM
Americans squeeze so little power out of such large engines because we aren't taxed on displacement. If we want more power, we get a bigger engine. It's affordable and physically sensible. In places like France and Japan, that'd cost you in tax, so instead you do everything possible to get power out of a small engine.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 21 2017, @07:26AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias [wikipedia.org]
Some cars from that era were the 1%. They are actually good cars. But the majority of cars are junk even today.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday January 21 2017, @09:51AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias [wikipedia.org]
Yes I know that well, but I am talking about buying an 80s-90s car now, which means you are picking from the reliable survivors already. We have already passed the survivorship filter.
Some cars from that era were the 1%. They are actually good cars. But the majority of cars are junk even today.
I quite agree, but the same applies today. 90% of the cars built in the last few years won't make it to 20+ years. Some due to just not being built that well, others because they have been written off in accidents.
Everything goes through that cycle, even modern cars. Once had a modern 911 brought to the shop that had gone completely haywire, must have been less than a year old. In the end we had it shipped for replacement under guarantee, but goes to show that every era of manufacture has its lemons.
However I suspect that if in future we look back, we will see that a larger number of modern cars will be filtered out over time than equivalent early generational models for the same year.
For the simple reason that they are much more complicated, have more to go wrong, need expensive specialist equipment to maintain and are harder for humans to work on. This makes it harder to enthusiasts to keep the cars going, and pushes up the costs for garage work, which means after a certain time it will be cheaper to scrap the car then pay the large bills for people to work on it, especially if it is an independent garage.
We are already at the point where when a new gen car is out of warranty, people want to sell it and get a new one just to avoid the massive maintenance and repair costs for even minor things.
(Score: 2) by dry on Saturday January 21 2017, @03:08AM
All my '80's vehicles lasted at least 500,000kms before rusting out. Probably the same with my '70's vehicles but as their odometers only went up to 99,999 it's hard to say. The exception was the American truck where the rivets holding the frame together failed at about 400,000 kms as well as the firewall where the master clutch was attached coming apart (fucking thing was glued together). Engine was still good though. The American vehicle amazed me with the crappy design decisions that went into it after only owning Japanese vehicles, fuckers ran the brake light wire up the steering column (for the 4 way flashers) and through a u-joint. Fun to fix.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 20 2017, @08:53PM
Why not take a nice morning drive? [2112.net]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday January 20 2017, @10:06PM
East European stuff got laughed out of the US market with the Yugo. Perhaps a few parts might be sourced from East Europe, but we don't get East Europe brands at all. The closest is Germany. The same goes for China; the closest is South Korea.
Anyway, the point of buying a car is because my old one is falling apart. I don't want a used car. I don't want crap with 3 cylinders, piddly little 4-bolt wheels, and 1-star crash ratings.
Aside from this issue, decent cars: 2017 Volkswagen Golf Type R, 2017 Subaru WRX STI... get my drift?
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday January 21 2017, @02:38AM
East European stuff got laughed out of the US market with the Yugo. Perhaps a few parts might be sourced from East Europe, but we don't get East Europe brands at all. The closest is Germany. The same goes for China; the closest is South Korea.
Yeah, but most East European stuff is just German now with a different badge and fewer luxuries (and lower price tag). The days of communists attempting to build and sell tin cans disguised as cars in the West went with away with the wall and the USSR in the 1990's.
However if you don't have those brands there, then not much point considering it, so moving on...
Anyway, the point of buying a car is because my old one is falling apart. I don't want a used car. I don't want crap with 3 cylinders, piddly little 4-bolt wheels, and 1-star crash ratings.
Aside from this issue, decent cars: 2017 Volkswagen Golf Type R, 2017 Subaru WRX STI... get my drift?
Yeah I get your drift, so no second hand German bruisers :)
However you won't find a modern upmarket car that isn't totally integrated with electrics now. The systems are so closely intertwined into the car that you can no longer disable/remove say, tracking or Internet connectivity from the car without disabling the engine and everything else. Not to mention the push for DRM on cars, that will add even more fun in future.
The only market segment that isn't wired up the wazoo is the "cheap and cheerful" bottom end (Your Skoda's and little Fiats and Peugeots, and even they have the basic ICE with bluetooth and possibly touch/voice interfaces). However piddly engines and low power is par for the course for this segment, so not meeting your needs either.
If your needs must all be met, then you will most likely have to make peace with the direction the market is going when it comes to the electrical installation. I guess if you really are inclined, you can look online to see which car is the most hackable, then see if you can reflash/modify/disable the bits of the car you don't want.
I don't know around the USA, but here in Europe VW's are that car. A large aftermarket and shared parts bin means you can find all kinds of mods that add features, remove features and modify features. I have not looked at post 2010 cars, but I see no reason VW aficionados would have slowed down their modding.
Might be a direction to look into, see if the car is moddable enough to meet your needs and remove the features you absolutely do not want. Of course in addition to whatever else you see as important in your purchase, after which you can see if the car is for you.
(Score: 2) by Unixnut on Saturday January 21 2017, @09:56AM
Oh, and one more thing. if you do consider a VW, stay away from the TSI engines. As an example of modern cars not being built as well as old ones, VW removed a piston ring from each cylinder compared to old engines, presumably to reduce costs.
The FSI survives this longer because it is an N/A, but the TSI is under more stress because of forced induction. This makes the TSI engined cars leak oil and break down very quick. Oil burning from the engine already started after 2 or so years of ownership from new, and you need to rebuild the engine, which isn't cheap.
The other posters recommendation for the focus-rs is also not too bad, they are decent cars based on reviews. However have not worked on one yet, so can't really give advice about it (which I guess is a good sign, when your job is to fix broken cars).
(Score: 1) by EETech1 on Saturday January 21 2017, @07:18AM
http://www.ford.com/performance/focus-rs/ [ford.com]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 21 2017, @11:20PM
Oh, I wish... but I simply don't fit in currently-sold Ford cars. (didn't check trucks) I'm tall, but nothing strange: 6'2" (188 cm)
It was a bit of a shock. I am fond of Ford controls and fond of the company. I hit my head in the Taurus, Focus, Fiesta, and I think one or two more. The roofs are lower (fuel efficiency?), the inside surface lower still due to sunroofs, and they even add handles to the A piller. Speaking of that, who needs a handle to climb into a small car, and can such a person see over the dashboard or reach the pedals? In any case, I just don't fit in any Ford car.
(Score: 1) by EETech1 on Sunday January 22 2017, @12:12AM
Watch the review from top gear. I seem to recall them saying how much headroom it had.
They couldn't say enough about how awesome it is.
I guess the best way to find out is to test drive one!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Webweasel on Friday January 20 2017, @11:29PM
Agreed, look for a low mileage Toyota or Honda that has all its service stamps.
Look after that car and it will do 250, possibly 500k miles.
My GT4 is coming up for 150k miles and still pulls as strong as ever. I spend on average about £500 a year on maintenance, but I like to go for a full service rather than an interim every time, as I love my car.
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