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This year, the world saw a long-theorized weapon in action: a commercial drone, like a person might find at Best Buy, dropping a bomb on a target in Iraq. These drone bombers, used by the ultra-violent quasi-state ISIS in Iraq and Syria, are the flashiest combination of modern technologies with the modern battlefield. Cheap, camera-carrying robots, put to nefarious ends by a group that could never otherwise dream of fielding an air force. Dropping grenades isn't the deadliest thing an insurgent group can do with a small flying robot, but it leads to a very important question: What, exactly, is the answer to such a drone?
[...] Here is just a short sample of the more out-there anti-drone tools: net guns, drones carrying nets, squads of drones with nets, drones with net guns, and a smart anti-drone bazooka that fires, you guessed it, a net at a drone (we liked that last one). There was a vaporware drone concept that ensnared the propellers of other drones with wire. A Russian firm floated the concept of a microwave gun, to fry the electronics of hostile drones. And most famously, there are the Dutch police eagles, trained to snag a drone from the sky.
Part of the problem for law enforcement, the Pentagon, and other entities trying to protect against drones is that they're cheap. Workable quadcopters cost as little as a couple hundred dollars. Is there a way to knock drones out of the sky that's just as cheap as the drone itself?
Source
http://www.popsci.com/how-to-stop-a-drone
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Monday February 13 2017, @02:41PM
Best options I can think of seem to be local area effect weapons like the various net based solutions designed to snare the propellers (but again, you still need to spot and aim at the target), or wider area effect weapons like the EM/microwave solutions to jam the signal or fry the electronics. The problem with the EM approach is that drones generally go "safe" when they lose contact with their controller, and if going "safe" includes returning to home GPS co-ords then those could be preset to a best guess as to those of the intended target rather than the operator, and frying the electronics at range takes a fair bit of power which means a much bulkier weapon, even it is re-usable, and you *still* need to spot and aim.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Monday February 13 2017, @02:55PM
You might be surprised to know that shotguns are used often, probably primarily, for hunting birds.
Live birds, flying in the air, usually significantly smaller targets than these RC aircraft.
"Even assuming buckshot rather than a single bullet"
Buckshot? Don't be silly. Number 8 birdshot should be plenty big enough to take it down, and it's a lot easier to get a hit with.
"even cheap drones can fly at sufficient altitude to make accurate targetting difficult"
Sure, but that cuts both ways, they need to come down low to deliver their own ordinance.
"Best options I can think of seem to be local area effect weapons like the various net based solutions designed to snare the propellers'
Wait, wait, hold up. First you're worried the shotgun won't have enough range. Then you're talking about net throwers with much less range as an alternative. How does that make any sense?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by zocalo on Monday February 13 2017, @03:42PM
I'd imagine the best flight model for grenade delivery would be a gradual climb to altitude to save power, maintain altitude until right on top of the target and to try and avoid detection/incoming fire, then descend to drop height to release only the last moment. If you allow for just a three second timer delay then for a near-surface detontation that's an altitude of 60m, and with a five second delay that's up to 150m - not really all that low, and the window of opportunity for a non-specialist weapon like a shotgun is going to be only seconds. You've also got the possibility that your shot will result in a live grenade dropping on top of you to keep in mind, so maybe not such a practical solution compared to something that has both a little more range and altitude. As a last resort though, sure, why not?
As to the net throwers, I was thinking something that fires something like a cartridge containing the net but only actually deploys the net once hopefully close enough to the drone to have an effect - not something that just launches the net right off the bat. Or perhaps something akin to a mini AK-AK that replaces the net with a small cloud of shrapnel - same effect as the birdshot, but with more range than a COTS shotgun load. Problem is, of course, that once you start specialising you start limiting your deployment options; maybe OK for cheaply defending a fixed installation, but do you *really* want yet another type of ammo, let alone another weapon, for your infantry to lug around in the field? And we're still not really tackling the targetting issue either; whatever your weapon, you've still got to figure out how to get it pointed at a target which may be small, in camo, near silent, and flying at a reasonable alitude in less than optimal lighting conditions.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday February 13 2017, @04:24PM
It is, and firing at a 45 degree or even greater is fairly common.
"If you allow for just a three second timer delay then for a near-surface detontation that's an altitude of 60m, and with a five second delay that's up to 150m - not really all that low, and the window of opportunity for a non-specialist weapon like a shotgun is going to be only seconds."
Obviously you'd like to have more range and accuracy anytime you can, but those are not crazy ranges for a shotgun. Most people figure extreme range for bird hunting reaches out to about 300m.
As a cheap and practical reaction it seems quite sensible. Certainly it's not a Magical Shield of Invulnerability(r) - those are incredibly expensive and often fail to deliver on their promises anyway. But it wouldn't cost much money to put a bunch of shotguns in the hands of men already in the field, and they could definitely be effective.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 13 2017, @06:28PM
#8 shot has an effective range of 30-35 yards, not 300. Not a single pellet will make it more than half way to that 300 meter target (and be ineffective for the last 115 meters) as they will all literally drop to the ground at about 150. If you use duck loads (#4 size range) you can extend that a couple yards. 00 buckshot will get you to 50 yards or so effective. That assumes you have a barrel and load that will pattern well at range, not all will. A slug could get you out to 100 meters, but good luck hitting that drone.
No sane person thinks shotguns have 300 meter range. Try searching "max range of #8 shot" on your favorite search engine, or go see how it works at a trap/skeet/sporting clays range.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Monday February 13 2017, @10:12PM
To the contrary, people that shoot trap think they have a 300 meter range, that's considered minimum distance for safety. Of course you'd find it difficult to hit anything at that range - but birdshot can and does travel that far and retain enough energy to do damage.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1) by Arik on Monday February 13 2017, @10:20PM
http://www.njskeet.com/files/shotgun_statistics.pdf
Bottom left.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 14 2017, @03:48PM
Yes - bottom left. #12 shot is very small, and it's extreme range is about 40 or 50 yards. Defining "extreme range" to mean, the shot has so little energy left, that it isn't going to penetrate the bird's feathers, let alone his skin. #1 shot extreme range is about 225 yards. Extreme range isn't the bottom of the arc, but rather, the end of the (more or less) straight line, and the beginning of the downward arc. Ought or double ought buckshot will get closer to 300 yards, but as I stated above, it probably won't reach 300 fired from a standard 12 guage shotgun.
I can't find "ballistics" for ten guage shot or slugs, but a couple near-misses suggested this site for more info on 10 guage loads. It seems you have to pay for their manuals in order to get the info. http://www.ballisticproducts.com/default.asp [ballisticproducts.com]
Anyway - to reiterate my earlier point, no one is knocking birds or drones out of the air at 300 yards or meters with a standard 12 guage shotgun, or with a standard 12 guage load.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Tuesday February 14 2017, @04:26PM
Sure #12 is shorter range but I wasn't talking about #12 I was talking about birdshot. Everything on that scale is included, with the most typical probably being the 7 1/2 about the middle of the chart and both extremes included. You can cherry pick #12 I can do the same with #1, are you trying to have a conversation or win an argument?
With 7 1/2 or 6 it will definitely still do damage if it hits at near to 300 yards, and it can definitely get there, especially if you use a 40deg muzzle instead of the 30 shown in that chart.
"Anyway - to reiterate my earlier point, no one is knocking birds or drones out of the air at 300 yards or meters with a standard 12 guage shotgun, or with a standard 12 guage load."
Way to completely miss the point. I made it perfectly clear I was talking about ballistic range, not accurate range. You're not likely to hit a bird at 300yards because the pellets are spread out so far the bird has a good chance of flying right between the pellets, but they'll still kill if you get lucky and hit, they can still break windows and injure people badly at that range if they hit.
So when the prior poster was saying that it was unrealistic to think they'd be effective at *half* that range, in a military situation (which means that unlike bird hunting no one is going to stop you from getting a dozen guys or more all firing at the same object at long range in order to get a good chance that one hits) I had to call bullshit. And it's still bullshit. The ballistics absolutely work out that far, you just need several shots to get enough pellet density that hits start to become reasonably likely.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 14 2017, @05:29PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=325&v=F42Bsc8YtnU [youtube.com]
(Score: 1) by Arik on Tuesday February 14 2017, @05:42PM
You could save me a lot of time by saying what you mean instead of pointing me to a video perhaps?
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday February 14 2017, @03:22PM
Extreme range for bird hunting, out to 300 meters? Hmm. I'm kinda scratching my head on that one. You're probably right, or near enough to it, except, we don't see many goose guns these days. Big 10 guage guns, with 30 inch barrels, full choked - I suppose you can probably still find one if you look, but I've not seen one in decades.
Hmmmm - quick search for "goose gun", and I find all sorts of hits for 12 guage guns, and no especially long barrels. Wikipedia has an entry on the Marlin Model 55 - but only one of the 6 guns mentioned is a 10 guage.
Let's face it, 300 meters (328 yards) is a terribly long shot for any standard shotgun.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Monday February 13 2017, @04:18PM
Do they?
I think the issue here is there are far too many variables for any one solution to work.
The purpose behind the UAV IED is to instill a new kind of fear. Now you have guys nervously looking up at the sky for bombs which is a great distraction. Hell, if I were them, I would make a few dummy IED UAV's fly around just to distract and scare the shit out of ground forces while they fire away revealing their positions.
(Score: 1) by Arik on Monday February 13 2017, @04:37PM
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 13 2017, @04:40PM
lolwut?
1. Fly up to 600 feet, above the range of any shotgun.
2. Fly to target, maintaining 600 foot altitude.
3a. (If the drone is expendable) When at target, power off motors and fall.
3b. (If the drone is reused) When at target, release payload, then fly to recovery point and land.
At no point in any of this (save for launch, where it will be heavily guarded, and falling on target, where it won't matter) is the drone within reach of a shotgun.