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posted by martyb on Wednesday February 22 2017, @02:18AM   Printer-friendly
from the close-to-double dept.

Dissident Voice reports

After a week of limited coverage of "unimaginable levels" of radiation inside the remains of collapsed Unit 2 at Fukushima[...], Nuclear-News.net reported February 11 that radiation levels are actually significantly higher than "unimaginable".

Continuous, intense radiation at 530 sieverts an hour (4 sieverts is a lethal level), was widely reported in early February 2017--as if this were a new phenomenon. It's not. Three reactors at Fukushima melted down during the earthquake-tsunami disaster on March 3, 2011, and the meltdowns never stopped. Radiation levels have been out of control ever since. As Fairewinds Energy Education noted in an email February 10:

Although this robotic measurement just occurred, this high radiation reading was anticipated and has existed inside the damaged Unit 2 atomic reactor since the disaster began nearly 6 years ago.... As Fairewinds has said for 6 years, there are no easy solutions because groundwater is in direct contact with the nuclear corium (melted fuel) at Fukushima Daiichi.

What's new (and not very new, at that) is the official acknowledgment of the highest radiation levels yet measured there, by a factor of seven (the previously measured high was 73 sieverts an hour in 2012). The highest radiation level measured at Chernobyl was 300 sieverts an hour.

[...] This coverage relates only to Unit 2's melted reactor core. There is no reliable news of the condition of the melted reactor cores in two other units.

[...] Whatever is actually going on at Fukushima is not good, and has horrifying possibilities. It is little comfort to have the perpetrator of the catastrophe, TEPCO, in charge of fixing it, especially when the Japanese government is more an enabler of cover-up and denial than any kind of seeker of truth or protector of its people.


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  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by jmorris on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:54AM

    by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:54AM (#469985)

    Well isn't it nice that in these final days of r selection you have so many free resources you can piss away so much to virtue signal your moral superiority. Now here in the real world it is a certainty that your installation will never make economic sense. It won't even be net positive if you ignore the time value of the money you invested in it. Probably not even if we ignore the higher prices for the super energy efficient appliances to keep the battery pack from being totally insane. This means the entire set of people who will do what you did consists of people with a lot of spare cash, a burning need to feel virtuous and morally opposed to the more traditional methods such as charity or tithing. And won't even do the modern California yuppie thing and adopt an African kid. So good luck scaling up.

    And you skipped right over the part where I was talking about base load. Google that term when you get a few minutes and then feel free to come back and revise and extend your remarks.

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  • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday February 22 2017, @04:44AM

    by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @04:44AM (#470000) Journal

    Base load? A great justification for big, possibly unnecessary power stations.
    Even nuclear may be unnecessary (although, as people have mentioned, if you have to, thorium is safer, without the "bonus" for nuclear weapons use)
    http://reneweconomy.com.au/dispelling-the-nuclear-baseload-myth-nothing-renewables-cant-do-better-94486/ [reneweconomy.com.au]
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/02/3081889.htm [abc.net.au]

    Even Australian Parliament researchers think 50% is achievable by 2040.
    http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0809/09rp09yt [aph.gov.au]

    If every houshold installed solar and storage batteries, only industry and services (hospitals, trains, etc) need full grid power, and even they could go part way to independence from the grid.

    --
    "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
    • (Score: 1, Troll) by jmorris on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:11AM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:11AM (#470002)

      Translation: You redefine ignorance to be a virtue. You have no concept of how a power grid operates. Base load is a fundamental concept. Might as well, in a place like this, say compilers are obsolete or something and get butthurt when everyone points and laughs.

      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by lentilla on Wednesday February 22 2017, @11:15AM

        by lentilla (1770) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @11:15AM (#470107)

        You redefine ignorance to be a virtue.

        You malign your parent poster without justification.

        You have no concept of how a power grid operates.

        And how; pray tell jmorris; can you be certain of that?

        Base load is a fundamental concept.

        A fundamental concept - certainly - but how exactly does this apply? The world was flat at one point - and that; too; is a fundamental concept.

        Regarding fundamental concepts: Most of us humans suffer from entrenched thinking. That's where the young blood and the fools are useful. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!", says the patient. Doctor replies "Then stop doing that." We often do things because "that's the way we've always done it". Sometimes that's good enough. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes time moves on and better strategies (perhaps more applicable to the era) appear.

        Very little is black and white. Base load, nuclear, solar rooftops - it's all a balance - and a combination of technology, practicality and politics. The status quo is not the end game - it is merely a reflection of today's reality and yesterday's choices. Thus; whilst it may be convenient to discard alternatives when we need to simplify decisions; we must occasionally revisit those discarded pathways in light of our new situation.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:45PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:45PM (#470340) Journal

        Base load is a fundamental concept.

        I disagree. Base load is a thing because not all power generation costs the same. You want to run power generation with the lowest marginal cost as much as possible and the most expensive power generation as little as possible. Most power generation can be run continuously. Thus, base load is the cheap power run continuously to maximize your return from it.

        In MostCynical's hypothetical world of extremely cheap solar power and energy storage, the cheapest power no longer runs continuously and under good circumstances in hot climates, it comes much closer to mirroring the demand for electricity than base load would. Thus, the electricity infrastructure would be reoriented around that cheap intermittent power rather than around base load. The old base load might now become load following both to smooth out supply of electricity during darkness and to compensate when weather significantly reduces the output of the solar power.

        • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:28AM

          by jmorris (4844) on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:28AM (#470594)

          That isn't all of it. Another important distinction is base load is usually sources that can't be started and stopped quickly. Remember that the grid has zero storage, power generated must equal power consumed second by second or bad things happen. So for example a nuke plant is always base load since once you crank one up it takes a long time to cool it back down safely. Ok, you could just vent a lot of steam or something in an emergency but you don't normally want to be doing that. So nukes won't normally supply more than the nightly minimum load at any time. I doubt a hydro plant just starts and stops in response to transient load variations either. Natgas turbines are the currently preferred peak load source. That is why they like having many different sources of power. Too much of any unbalances the system though.

          So an all solar grid is not happening, neither is an all wind, hydro or nuke. Unless they could actually make grid scale batteries ever work, then a lot of currently unthinkable scenarios become possible.

          • (Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Thursday February 23 2017, @07:56AM

            by Aiwendil (531) on Thursday February 23 2017, @07:56AM (#470643) Journal

            So for example a nuke plant is always base load since once you crank one up it takes a long time to cool it back down safely

            Well, the EUR requirements for new builds are to go between 50% and 100% at the rate of 3% per minute (200 times per year), most GenIII are designed for 5% per minute or more

            The mode french plants (GenII) are designed for is 30-85% within 30min (~2% per minute) unless at the start of very end of its current fuel cycle (so, only can manouver like this for 85% of the time).

            In USA load following is only done with nuclear in Illinois (at least back in 2008).

            If you are willing to risk damages to the fuel pretty much all BWRs can adjust at 10% per hour.

            At the extreme end some unbuilt designs target 25% to 100% in 20 minutes (a cousin design is the EPR, so not a "far in the future" capability).

            Ok, you could just vent a lot of steam or something in an emergency but you don't normally want to be doing that

            Depends on the reactor really, on well-designed reactors the limiting factors are condensers and max allowed discharge temperature of cooling water.
            The Bruce reactors (CANDU 800MWe, each plant has slightly different features) can cool off up to 300MWe without adjusting core output (which it can do at 2.5% per minute). (The EC6 (Enhanched CANDU, 740MWe) is designed for a 100% steam bypass to condensers).

            • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Saturday February 25 2017, @02:26AM

              by jmorris (4844) on Saturday February 25 2017, @02:26AM (#471402)

              Those are some nice features. Wish we could import some of that here, we really should be replacing every reactor older than thirty years, which is pretty much all of them that don't still have orange construction cones up.

              • (Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Saturday February 25 2017, @12:00PM

                by Aiwendil (531) on Saturday February 25 2017, @12:00PM (#471466) Journal

                The CANDU reactors actually are old (excepting the EC6, which is a backport of CANDU9 features into CANDU6), heck, the bruce plant (2x4 reactors) went online between 1977 and 1987. And the CANDU6 are still the second newest member in the family (ACR and CANDU9 was shelved).

                But quite frankly, nothing of the above is unique - most power reactors can go 60-90% at 2% per minite, it mainly is a regulatory issue.

                The extreme degree of steam bypass in EC6 (it is a PHWR) can be acheived in all PWR reactors (steam is in the conventional part in those) with upgrades that would be bog standard with the exact same parts in other power plants - but would require a few shelves extra permits for some reason in nuclear plants.

                Fun tidbit btw; excepting the CANDU (2x30yrs) most reactors was only intended to run for 30-35 years and go offline when their replacement went online (so we've ended up in a situation of where we run old nuclear reactors due to the people opposing the nuclear reactors) - good thing they overengineered them.

                If you are interested in reading about reactors and what has been available since the 90s search for EC6, ABB BWR90, ABWR or Konvoi (that and the french N4 got mangled into the EPR).

                Of the currently available reactors the EC6, ABWR, VVER/392M and VVER/491 are very interesting.

                Or if you want to see what is right around the corner search for AHWR, HTR-PM, or ESBWR.

                And a bit further into the future VVER-SCWR and CANDU-SCWR (CANDU-X) are bound to make quite a few go "wtf?!"

  • (Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:14AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:14AM (#470004)

    Can we all mod jmorris down now? Can we, please? He will probably think it is a vast left-wing conspiracy, and that alone makes it worthwhile!!

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by MostCynical on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:25AM

      by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:25AM (#470029) Journal

      Sometimes, it is a bit like arguing with a grandparent who grew up speaking a different language: every conversation has less and less communication, and more and more nodding, smiling, and working out how you can get away...

      --
      "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:14PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:14PM (#470209)

      It is a vast left wing conspiracy, asshole. I sneaked into last week's meeting, wearing one of those pointy white hat things. You couldn't seen my face under that hoody thing, and I wore white gloves to hide my hands. And, I hid my iPhone recording the event under that stupid thingy. BITE ME BITCHES!!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @04:42PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @04:42PM (#470262)

      Hey, he is known to have decent points on purely science/tech articles.

  • (Score: 3, Touché) by c0lo on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:28AM

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:28AM (#470008) Journal

    It won't even be net positive if you ignore the time value of the money you invested in it.

    Tell it to the corporate puppet masters, they'll pat your back for it.

    When I can afford the batteries, I'll do it. Be it only for the reason I can be independent from the grid. Now... this is a thought that scares shitless the gridders in Australia The same people that pushed me in installing the PV on my roof, the same ones that more than doubled the price of energy they delivered to my home about 4-5 years ago.
    The same ones that continued to increase the price of electricity year after year since (albeit at a lower rate, but certainly still higher than inflation)

    Believe me, it's not "my moral superiority" at play - just simple economics. This year, the PV-es on my roof paid themselves, in spite of me being forced on a "time-of-day energy pricing" contract; it took less that 5 years for RoI.

    Probably not even if we ignore the higher prices for the super energy efficient appliances to keep the battery pack from being totally insane.

    Heh, yeah... hi-tech indeed.
    When I commissioned the home I'm living in, I paid a bit more for extra insulation between the outer wall and the drywall and for double-glazed windows. I also built a pergola along the side of the house facing the sun (the northern side) and planted exactly 3 wisteria [wikipedia.org]-s. The result: its now 36C degrees outside, 22C inside and the only sound I hear is the news droning on a TV I forgot to switch off since this morning (thus, I'm wasting the extra 350W my plasma TV sucks which I could put back on the grid). What I don't hear: the incessant humming of the AC - it needs 3 days of over 35C outside to have the walls retaining enough heat for me to start the AC (over 25C inside).

    This means the entire set of people who will do what you did consists of people with a lot of spare cash, a burning need to feel virtuous and morally opposed to the more traditional methods such as charity or tithing

    Yeap, I'm an egotistical bastard alright.
    Do you fault me for this, jmorris? Are you somehow a social warrior in the name of African children? Or in the name of coal barons?

    And you skipped right over the part where I was talking about base load.

    Not to worry, the moment I'd be paid enough for it to make economic sense, I'll be happy to share my personal "load buffering services" for the good of the base load (have I told you I'm a selfish bastard?)
    Until then, I'll enjoy the feeling of "doing something for the environment" (for which I paid with my own money; jmorris can bitch at his leisure about my choices, I don't care, my money, my choice)
    I'll also continue to feel like a mini-capitalist net producer of energy - in your face, gridders, I'll buy from you only when I'll really need it. If you won't be there, so be it, I'll see what I can do if it happens (see what I did here? I'm using the great mindset as the executive officers of the big corps - quarterly profits, eh? Amazing how this capitalist mindset works, even at small scale - large grin - ).

    And won't even do the modern California yuppie thing and adopt an African kid. So good luck scaling up.

    Ah, about scaling up. I forgot to tell you a bit of history. About 10 years ago, the PV panels were expensive like hell ($12k-15k for a 3kW installation). When I installed mine (late 2013), I paid $7500 for a 4.2kW worth of panels +inverter. Today, prices for a 5kW installation go as low as $4800. Chinese, of course.

    Now, let's see: this year the prices for a PowerWall2 is $16500. Coming from our friend, Elon, who developed them for USian yuppies with money to burn on overpriced roadsters.
    I betcha in 5 year time, the Australian market will be flush with the LiFePO4 [wikipedia.org] batteries, those batteries BYD auto [wikipedia.org] is so busy now [soylentnews.org] building for its EV buses [sustainnovate.ae]
    Egotistical prick as I am and also being a tight ass, I'll wait until then to make my move. I guess the PV-es will be happt to speak the same language with the batteries, eh?
    I can guarantee many will do the same - so many, that it will take a nuclear winter cloud blanket for Australia to experience blackouts (yes, the gridders will have a role in this, but the negotiation... ummm... power will be more balanced than the pay-up-or-else nowadays).

    How do you like my capitalistic mindset (contrast with your 'advantages for Communism' thread title), jmorris?

    • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:59AM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:59AM (#470036)

      Where the heck are you? Google sez electricity in general is about 2 1/2 times more down under vs the U.S. but if you are out on the edge of the grid, OK, maybe you are getting shafted hard enough to justify trying something. Just how much are you paying? But again, that ain't typical for any significant percentage of the world. By definition since anywhere people actually live is always served by the grid fairly well.... assuming 1st world political stability of course.

      Now lets address a few random thoughts in no particular order.

      Do you actually think those cheap Chinese panels are going to last twenty plus years? A non-trivial number of the American made ones have suffered a lot higher drop than the ad copy promised and remember, the 'life expectancy' rating is like a battery, the 50% of original spec point. So unless you dramatically overspecced the system.......

      You aren't even really on solar yet anyway. Until you connect the battery you are still running on the grid. Go outside on a bright sunny day and cut the mains switch and watch your home go dark. (there are exceptions but that is the general rule because it protects your appliances from sags) You are generating and selling electricity to the grid at above market rates. Most grid operators don't like paying for grid tied solar because it actually causes them about as much bother as the wholesale price of the energy. Then they, again because of government meddling to encourage solar, have to actually pay you more than they can buy the same energy from a large power plant for. So you are only a Capitalist in your mind, in reality just another welfare client who bought the spiel that they were from the Government and were there to help you. Except they also got you to sink a fair stack of your own money too.

      And while solar tech is, like all tech, generally sloping down you are forgetting something. Fusion has been thirty years off for the last fifty years but they really are getting close these days. Do you want to be all in on a ten to twenty year payout when electricity cuts in half? Yes it has been going up lately, green mandates tend to do that, but tech advances outside the solar industry too.

      Is there a chance solar gets so cheap it makes sense for large numbers of people? It could happen. But it hasn't done it yet. And since true grid free operation is going to need pricey, dangerous and short lived batteries the magic 8ball says "Unlikely." Research the concept "economy of scale". making more solar panels, etc. lowers the price but generating at a big ass station has decades of engineering optimizations going for it as well as scale. It is possible a million independent installs could be cheaper than one or two really big generating stations but it ain't the way to bet. Especially since the grid is universally assumed to remain and need to be maintained in every popular alt-energy scenario.

      And as expected, yup you spent non-trivial extra cash making your home green ready and accept 25C as a reasonable indoor temp. Since you would need the AC on days when the sun was brightest we can assume your panels still can't supply sufficient power for it and you would by buying from the grid if it operates. Most people disagree that 25C/77F is a optimal indoor temp. But I live in Louisiana, I admit I have been known to let the house get that warm to keep the electricity bill lower... but the Mrs. is another story.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 22 2017, @08:50AM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 22 2017, @08:50AM (#470065) Journal

        Where the heck are you?

        Outer burbs of Melbourne, surrounded by a 18-hole golf course.

        Google sez electricity in general is about 2 1/2 times more down under vs the U.S

        Yeap. And it's not the production cost, but the distribution. Wholesale, the energy is somewhere at AUD50/MWh, I'm paying retail 30c/kWh peak, 22c/kWh offpeak (23:00-06:00) + a fixed "service to property fee" of $1.05/day. Wanna do a calculation for how large is the difference they pocket?

        The total energy that passed through the inverter to date is: 25850kWh.

        So unless you dramatically overspecced the system.......

        Based on the stats I collected during 1 year before and the avg sun light, I concluded 3.6 kWh would be needed to cover the net consumption.
        Thus, I installed 4.4kW (this is what the inverter screen is reporting me) - 20% overhead, expecting to a drop of efficiency of about that over the first 3-4 years.
        It is about that - actually, it was 3.2kW generated today in full sun, but I need to climb the roof and wash the panels a bit, some showers mixed with dust from northerly winds let a quite stick fine layer of dust on the chinese panels that I have. I have a feeling that cleaning them will get them into 3.6kW.

        Fusion has been thirty years off for the last fifty years but they really are getting close these days. Do you want to be all in on a ten to twenty year payout when electricity cuts in half?

        I wouldn't hold my breadth for fusion, even more so that will take some 10 years at least from a functional prototype to an actual power station - fission is much easier and building a commercial nuke is over 5 years. I have more confidence in battery tech progress than fusion.

        Other than that, if I can be self sufficient, yes I don't mind to be still in the payout when the electricity prices cuts in half - based on the invoices I receive, I have a hunch that the gridders won't pass the full lower price to me.
        Only considering the "service to property fee" at the current price of $380/year (to be increased year-after-year), a reasonable-priced "electricity buffer" ($7500) is payback in 20 years. Yes, I know, they won't last that long, but I still think an off-grid solution that is viable given the prices the damn'd retailers charge here!!!.

        Do you see now why Australia is so quick to embrace "power grid independence" as much as possible?

        It is possible a million independent installs could be cheaper than one or two really big generating stations but it ain't the way to bet.

        Why not?

        Most people disagree that 25C/77F is a optimal indoor temp.

        When's 40C during Christmas (and the lamb is sizzling on the barbeque) and the lower temp over the year is 4C, 25C is warm but bearable. I'm not sweating and this means comfortable.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:39PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:39PM (#470762)

          Thank you for solidly debunking every bit of bullshit that guy passes off as reasonable discussion.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:37PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 23 2017, @04:37PM (#470761)

        Is there some reason you like shitti g on every idea that doesn't maintain oil/coal forever?

  • (Score: 1) by charon on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:55AM

    by charon (5660) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:55AM (#470019) Journal

    Even if (and it's a big if) your contention is correct that people with personal solar systems have paid more for them than they will ever receive in lowered cost. Even if (and it's a big if) they are "virtue signaling," as you like to call it. And even if (and it's a big if) they are wasting their money, which, in the economic system you like to propound, is their own choice and no one else's.

    Even if all of those things are true: their effect is that of an anti-Tragedy of the Commons. The people are intentionally doing something not in their own economic interests with the intent of making the community richer. And I find that to be a desirable outcome. I cannot comprehend a worldview where that is not a desirable income. Even a stereotypical evil, dog-eat-dog, hyper-capitalist would twirl his moustache and say, "Good! Those weaklings are making it easier for me to fleece profits from them."

    So basically, this was a long way of saying, "What the hell is wrong with you?"

    • (Score: 1) by anubi on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:05AM

      by anubi (2828) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:05AM (#470020) Journal

      Even a stereotypical evil, dog-eat-dog, hyper-capitalist would twirl his moustache and say, "Good! Those weaklings are making it easier for me to fleece profits from them."

      Gawd, I wish our Government would recognize this and quit being an enabler for this kind of destructive horse crap.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
      • (Score: 1) by charon on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:19AM

        by charon (5660) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:19AM (#470024) Journal
        That was supposed to be an absurd sterotype. Most hyper-capitalists don't have moustaches they can twirl.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @07:41AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @07:41AM (#470041)

        I wish our Government would recognize this and quit being an enabler for this kind of destructive horse crap

        So, this time around, did you vote for the Red Brand of enabling or the Blue brand?

        Keeping up with what your Congresscritters are doing?
        Sending letters/calling?
        Going to participate in the town hall with your Congresscritter during the February recess?
        (A bunch or Reds are ducking those.)

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:24AM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:24AM (#470028)

      Oh I'd have zero problem with people doing whatever they want with their own money. I'm on record here multiple times saying my Rule 0 is the Right to be Wrong since without it somebody has to wield the power of declaring who is Wrong. But it is an illusion in this case since taxpayers are typically on the hook when a home installs solar since even the virtue signalers usually get cold feet when confronted with the unsubsidized price. In fact, now that he has declared he is in Australia I care a bit less since while he is still helping a government waste taxpayer money but it isn't my government wasting mine. :)

      And to a certain extent I can even work up a grudging respect for guys like Elon Musk. I think he knows the green side of his company is mostly a scam to hoover up government cash and part the hyper rich .com folks from large sums of money, but it was the only way to fund a space program. We need one of those but the only other players, the USG and other nation states, are only interested in going round and round in low earth orbit in gold plated launch vehicles that ain't ever going to advance the ball.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:51AM

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:51AM (#470033) Journal

        but it was the only way to fund a space program.

        Space program for which he'll fleece the US tax payer.
        Yeap, fleece, because the tax payer of today will not see any benefit from it.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @08:19AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @08:19AM (#470052)

      Community sounds too similar to communism so it is scary.

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:10PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 22 2017, @03:10PM (#470205) Journal

    Maybe you're not being entirely fair. Battery technology is supposed to be improving. Converting to a combination of wind and sun power might actually make sense in the not-distant future. Let's remember that the early adopters of new tech pay high prices, later buyer get better prices, and those who wait for mass production get bargain prices. Let those with deep pockets go on ahead, and fund the R&D needed to make solar power affordable for all of us.

  • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:23PM

    by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @05:23PM (#470286) Journal

    Look at it this way: they're paying the early-adopter tax for us :)

    Now, from a purely energetic perspective you're right: a bunch of lucky people with money to burn aren't going to solve the pollution problem, and our battery tech straight up *is not there* yet. However...this is how it starts.

    If you'd just left it to technical gripes I'd've modded you up. But no, instead, you had to go on another whiny, aggrieved, special-snowflake rant about "butbutbut VIRTYOO SIGNULLAN! Fuck you you're not better than meeeee! You don't really have any light in your either whaaa whaa whaaa the light is a lie, mommyyyyy~!"

    So fuck you very much for that. When you grind your axe down to the size of a small scalpel, you've overplayed your hand. Wanna know why you're getting downmodded to Hell? Because this "dial-an-alt-reich talking point" post style of yours is unmitigated, corrosive bullshit, and people are finally finding the balls/ovaries to call you on it.

    --
    I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday February 22 2017, @07:41PM

      by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @07:41PM (#470376)

      Look at it this way: they're paying the early-adopter tax for us :)

      But that IS the heart of my objection. They are using YOUR money and MY money to feel superior. It is the government subsidy that makes it wicked. Get away from green tech which makes some people lose their effing mind. Imagine when the iPhone first came out, the old $700 ones... (of course the new ones are too... hmm) that some Congresscritter had declared they were so revolutionary that anyone who didn't have one would be 'left behind' so there would be a government program to pay $600 of the cost of one for anyone who met the means testing, probably using the typical rule of if you qualify for food stamps. Yea it would probably have driven the price down but would you be happy about your taxes dumping Sagans of cash into Apple's coffers so welfare clients could sport a current model iPhone?

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday February 22 2017, @10:10PM

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday February 22 2017, @10:10PM (#470462) Journal

        Aaaaaand your fallacy is....*Classic Family-Feud scrolling sound* ...Faaaaaaalse Equivaleeeeence!

        A fucking iPhone and solar power are not the same thing. The fact that you can't tell the difference speaks badly of either your intelligence or your morals. Or both. This is more like what fell out of NASA in the 50s and 60s than anything.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:53PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 22 2017, @06:53PM (#470347)

    Heh, if all California yuppies adopt African kids then I guess its true that your mom is also your sister, and your siblings are also your aunts/uncles.

    The world finally makes sense!