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Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard
Windows Update came roaring back today [Mar 7] after more than a month in a semi-comatose state, and the chute filled up quickly this morning. Windows Update seems to be working well -- even more reason to check your Win7 and 8.1 systems and make sure it's turned off
[...] More disconcerting are the re-re-releases of KB 2952664 (Win7) and KB 2976978 (Win8.1). As I explained last month, those two patches have, in the past, triggered a new Windows task called DoScheduledTelemetryRun.
Even proponents of installing all Win7 and 8.1 patches balk at those patches, which were born in the crucible of the Get Windows 10 (GWX) marched upgrade madness. The series was renumbered, with no explanation: KB 2852664 was renumbered from revision 25 on Oct. 4, 2016, to revision 12 today. Microsoft states:
This update performs diagnostics on the Windows systems that participate in the Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program. The diagnostics evaluate the compatibility status of the Windows ecosystem, and help Microsoft to ensure application and device compatibility for all updates to Windows. There is no GWX or upgrade functionality contained in this update.
Yet it appears as if the scheduled task runs whether CEIP is enabled or not. If there's a reason for installing the patches, other than increased telemetry, I haven't heard about it.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday March 10 2017, @04:00PM (16 children)
I just look at this, and think how much time, effort and money has been wasted on both sides,
Microsoft isn't wasting money here; they're doing these things because it makes them more money. It's the other side that's wasting their time and money, when, as you astutely point out, they could simply choose an alternative OS. You're exactly right: for all the effort they put into trying to work around MS's shenanigans, they could be investing that on migrating to a better OS that aligns better with their preferences and goals.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Unixnut on Friday March 10 2017, @04:07PM (14 children)
> Microsoft isn't wasting money here; they're doing these things because it makes them more money.
While I agree with your point, I suspect that right now, it isn't making Microsoft money either.
I believe they are doing it in order to make money in future. They are looking forward to a time when they lock it down enough to be able to start "monetizing" the users data. I would not be surprised if they eventually come out with the brainfart to only allow apps from the "Windows App store" to be installed (with commission on every transaction to MS, a-la Apple). However they can't tighten that screw just yet, as too many users are accustomed to "owning" the OS (and by extension doing what they want with it, including running any binary they find anywhere).
This is some twisted concept of "Investment", where they don't mind trimming down the number of users through attrition, as long as the ones left are easy enough to pen in and milk for future income. I am not convinced that they will succeed (hence I see the money "wasted"), but who knows, they have definitely decided to go "all in" on this concept, so we will see if it is a success, of if MS manages to actually kill Windows (as a useful OS) with its incompetence.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by LoRdTAW on Friday March 10 2017, @04:53PM (10 children)
The problem is there is too much legacy software floating around at the moment. MS is working on getting developers to move to "Windows Apps" (formerly Metro) and get them in the store. Once the store reaches critical mass, MS can pull the plug on win32, .net, and non-store applications calling it all unsupported legacy. At that point you either run a VM (if your lord and master allows it) or keep legacy hardware and Windows systems floating around.
Bottom line is, its not if but when MS pulls the plug. That all depends on the various software vendors moving to Windows Apps. And given history, it probably will happen at some point as MS still enjoys a majority share of the desktop so developers will go where the money is.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday March 10 2017, @06:03PM (9 children)
Given how well WINE reportedly works these days, it seems the best course of action for people who actually have the resolve to not just go along with MS's plans is to switch to Linux and try running their legacy software on WINE, and also for software vendors to utilize WINE to ease the transition.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Friday March 10 2017, @07:47PM (8 children)
There are still a few applications I have yet to get working in Wine. Three are industrial laser controller applications that use ethernet or serial communication, and the other is the ERP software which is a total mess but were stuck with it. An industrial motion control system we use is built on Windows and requires special drivers and kernel level stuff that can't be ran on Wine. A lot of Industrial systems run Windows (scary, right?), have windows only HMI's, or have development tools that are Windows only. For me, it's a long road out of Winhell.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Friday March 10 2017, @07:58PM (1 child)
Those kinds of tools cost big money though, right? Big money that could be used to GET it working on Wine rather than purchasing new software perhaps? Or does it even matter -- aren't a lot of those types of systems on some (hopefully) air gapped XP box? Are you really running that kind of stuff on _Windows 10_?
Personally I find the exact opposite anyway though -- I've given up on Windows because the few pieces of Windows software that I *do* still want to run won't run on Windows anymore, but they run just fine under Wine...
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday March 10 2017, @11:11PM
Unfortunatly, it's not my call. For management: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Though, I do use Linux where I can. Some general use shop floor PC's run Mint and I'm contemplating writing a PLC engine that's POSIX compliant and running it on Linux or OpenBSD. I did some experimenting with Opto22's OptoMMP protocol and libmodbus. The HMI would simply be a terminal application written using ncurses or termbox. If the machine goes down, I could SSH into it remotely and run diagnostic tools right from the command line. Though half the time I'm fixing broken stuff.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday March 10 2017, @09:32PM (5 children)
Please tell me you aren't connecting your industrial laser controller to a network.
If your computer isn't on a network, you don't need to worry about OS updates.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday March 10 2017, @11:12PM (4 children)
Isolated network with access to a file server for transferring programs. There is no outgoing or incoming internet connectivity. I fixed that a while back. Before that, everything was on one insecure network. Yikes.
The one thing I do have a gripe with is Trumpf, a laser manufacturer, requires their machine (Trulaser Cell 3000) to be connected to the internet for remote diagnostics but after they commissioned the machine I yanked the Ethernet from the Windowz box in the machine. And yes, the machine runs Windows for the HMI and diagnostics along with an embedded Windows PLC from Beckhoff. If it needs diagnosis, it will be connected only for the duration.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday March 11 2017, @01:09AM (3 children)
Yeah, for stuff like that (specialty machines not connected to the internet), OS really doesn't matter except for the annoyance factor of having to use the Windows UI. Machines like that, to me, don't even count in this whole argument; those kind of machines are frequently running some ancient version of Windows anyway. You don't use them for general-purpose computing.
It's the general purpose office computers, connected to the internet, where people should be working to free themselves of their dependency to MS. And that's why I brought up WINE: it might very well be possible to run all your 3rd-party software on Linux that way. Machine-control stuff won't work because of special device drivers and such, but regular application software is not like this.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Saturday March 11 2017, @08:27PM (2 children)
I've built some of those machines with regular Dells or custom built rack mount boxes from newegg. Aerotech is the CNC system we use and even though it's windows based, it's quite flexible and easy to build and configure a motion system. We saved an Aerotech system a customer was going to toss and I re-purposed the CNC system for a job that has made $100k to this day. Took me only a week and that included waiting for parts. Runs off a Dell Dimension 4700 (P4/1GB) with XP Pro. They do have newer software that runs on 7/8/10 but again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. My boss hates spending money on things that work (He's also very penny wise pound foolish). I rebuilt our glove box CNC with new Aerotech on Win 7 and I spent more time with wiring and building a rack mount enclosure for the drives than software installation and configuration. I got my little open source thing going, have a cygwin install on it that handles some CAM post processing, oprogram modification (e.g. automatically adds laser commands), and backup using regular shell scripts and sed/awk/rsync.
I have wanted to try out either Machine kit or Linux CNC on Mesa FPGA hardware. Though, the support is a mailing list and it requires a lot more work to build a system. Only downside to opensource when trying to convince management that there is no one to call up and scream at someone for support when shit breaks. My boss turned that suggestion down immediatly. Now he wants to move towards highly integrated high performance stuff like Siemens Sinumeric or possibly Fanuc. Not that Aerotech or even ACS are low performance, quite the opposite. They are more OEM DIY and not turnkey.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday March 11 2017, @11:09PM (1 child)
I have a hobby CNC machine running LinuxCNC; it wasn't hard to get set up, but I did choose a controller that was already supported by it, the Gecko G540. From there it was a couple hours maybe of installing the software and configuring it for that particular machine. I have no idea about this "Mesa FPGA hardware" you mention; I haven't heard of that. I'll have to look it up. LinuxCNC is obviously very DIY-oriented, but it works well IMO; it's been very reliable for me for years now. I've certainly never needed to call anyone up and scream at them. The problem with that idea (which you probably agree with but management does not) is that that support is extremely expensive and not needed if you have competent people on staff who know how the machine works and who even built it (from easily-available components). Anyone reasonably competent with Linux, who can install and tweak the OS (and especially do a little custom scripting) is not going to have a problem. That fancy expensive "support" is if you have morons on staff who just want to press a button and don't know anything about how their machines work, much like the workers at McDonald's who have no idea how their burger-making machines work, they just know enough to follow the pictorial directions printed on the machines.
(Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Sunday March 12 2017, @05:17PM
What kind of machine do you have? The Mesa stuff is really interesting and the cost wont break the bank. http://www.mesanet.com/ [mesanet.com]
I can agree that it is a silly mentality but believe it or not, Aerotech support is free so long as you have a sales order with them. We have built five CNC systems with their hardware and they work very well when properly setup. The yelling part is simply due to what I I'm on vacation or I quit? The boss wanting Siemens or Fanuc is just his crappy childish mentality of seeing some high-end German hardware and thinking it's going to look good to customers and on the website. He is obsessed with aesthetics and outward appearance rather than focusing on internal process' and fine tuning them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 10 2017, @05:00PM
You mean like this? http://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-10-how-to-lock-down-the-os-to-only-install-windows-store-apps/ [techrepublic.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Friday March 10 2017, @05:08PM
> I would not be surprised if they eventually come out with the brainfart to only allow apps from the "Windows App store" to be installed [...]
That was last week's news: "Microsoft Adds Store App-Only Restriction as Option in Windows 10" [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Friday March 10 2017, @05:12PM
Come one, dear geeks ...
What's the actual percentage of users who go out of their way to disable telemetry? I'm guessing single digits, and not the big ones...
Many people who did it the first time, because we warned them, will miss this one. The remaining few who fight every time (outside of gamers, the highest value ones have move to linux) are not a big loss to the giant database of easily-monetized data.
And this shit has been baked into W10 from the start. If they did the patch thing every month this year, I'm not sure the people leaving would register above the noise.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by requerdanos on Saturday March 11 2017, @01:36AM
Surely at some point it will be easier, cheaper and faster to just leave Windows altogether?
For me, this point came when I was testing the windows 10 preview on a laptop, and it...
1. Demanded that I update by a certain date or it would self-destruct [microsoft.com],
2. Continually failed to update [microsoft.com] every time it tried (whether online, from DVD, or from USB),
3. Sure enough, it self-destructed.
This reinforced to me in a personal way that not only was the software a sypware, malware, bad actor in the theoretical sense, but the practical.
That was the last computer I had with Windows installed. I have seven computers (desktops, laptops, servers) and at this writing all are running Debian [debian.org]. Additionally, all server space/servers that I lease are linux-based.
At my age, I conservatively estimate that approximately half of my life is past. I don't have time for an operating system that is designed to actively fight against me, as is Windows. I suppose other people have to make their own decisions about that, but after decades of having both Linux and Windows around, after that day I have been free-operating-system [distrowatch.com] only. I even joined the FSF [fsf.org] as a monthly associate member.