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posted by on Thursday March 16 2017, @12:41PM   Printer-friendly
from the sit-stay-cook dept.

If you ever need to strike up a conversation with a group of academics, a surefire way to get them talking is to ask about their graduate training. Where did they train, in what methods, in which lab, under what mentor? People will speak with great pride about their training as an economist, historian, chemist, philosopher, or classicist. If, on the other hand, you need to make a quick exit, try sharing the opinion that undergraduate education should include a lot more vocational training. You'll soon find yourself standing alone or responding to accusations of classism and questions about your commitment to social and racial equality. You might even hear that "training is for dogs," a common refrain in higher education that carries the unpleasant implication that skills-based education is the equivalent of teaching students to sit, stay, and shake hands.

For reasons that are not entirely clear, in the United States training is widely understood to be the end, not the beginning, of an educational journey that leads to a particular job or career. Undergraduates are supposed to get a general education that will prepare them for training, which they will presumably get once they land a job or go to graduate school. Any training that happens before then just doesn't count.

It is because of this belief that general-education requirements are the center of the bachelor's degree and are concentrated in the first two years of a four-year program. The general-education core is what distinguishes the B.A. from a vocational program and makes it more than "just training." It is designed to ensure that all degree holders graduate with a breadth of knowledge in addition to an in-depth understanding of a particular subject area. Students are exposed to a broad range of disciplines and are pushed to think critically about the social, cultural, and historical context in which they live. It is supposed to guarantee that all graduates can write, have a basic understanding of the scientific method, have heard of the Marshall Plan and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and know that iambic pentameter has something to do with poetry.

While few would challenge the importance of general education, both to students and to a well-functioning democracy, there is good reason to question why it has to come at the beginning of a B.A.—and just how general and theoretical it needs to be. The pyramid structure of the bachelor's degree, which requires that students start with the broad base of general requirements before they specialize, is what makes college unappealing to so many young people.

It doesn't have to be this way. There is no iron law of learning dictating that students must master general theories or be fully versed in a particular historical or cultural context before learning how to do things. Some students will do well under this approach, but there is solid evidence that some students learn better through experience. For these students, theory does not make sense until it is connected to action. Putting a lot of general or theoretical courses on the front end just leaves them disengaged or, even worse, discouraged. They will do better if they start by learning how to master certain tasks or behaviors and then explore the more abstract concepts behind the actions.

-- submitted from IRC


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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bradley13 on Thursday March 16 2017, @01:46PM (8 children)

    by bradley13 (3053) on Thursday March 16 2017, @01:46PM (#479773) Homepage Journal

    ...is a holdover from the privileged classes of the 19th century.

    A bachelor of science (note that last word) should specifically educate you in a scientific or technical field. A bachelor of arts, correspondingly, in a non-scientific/non-technical field. The way you teach a civil engineer to build a bridge does not involve him or her actually going out and pouring concrete. Education takes place (excepting the odd practicum) on an abstract level.

    Vocational education is completely different. It is primarily a practical education (excepting the odd theory course). A carpenter learns to do good carpentry by measuring, cutting, sawing and constructing. An electrician learns the basic ideas, and then gets lots of practice running cables, connecting fixtures, etc..

    The US has two problems:

    - General education through high school has been watered down by programs like NCLB. Everyone gets an 'A', there are no consequences to failing to learn, we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings.

    - Probably as a consequence of the first problem: people push their kids to go to college. Vocational education has lost all respect, even though that's where lots of really essential jobs are.

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  • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @02:58PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @02:58PM (#479813)

    I don't like NCLB at all but it sure as hell doesn't make teachers give undeserving As. Unless you live in a very abnormal area you have no idea about education and are just playing keyword bingo.

    Vocational training should come back, right now lots of people suffer through standardized (bastardized) education then have to pay for another 1-2 year program.

    Standardized testing is the worst.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @04:33PM (2 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @04:33PM (#479878)

    The "liberal arts" were, in the ancient world (long before the nineteenth century) said to be "liberal" in the sense that they were fit for people free (liber=free)... free from the duties of work. The unfree were those who had to till their fields for a living or grind grain or in other ways dedicate their time to the banausic tasks that sustained life. Those with sufficient resources to avoid work were able to cultivate astronomy, arithmetic, geometry, music, and so forth. Note that sciences (astronomy) and math (arithmetic and geometry) together with what people now consider "art" (music) were all parts of the original "liberal arts": they aren't manual labor, which only requires training.

    Today's separation of STEM from the rest of the liberal arts is a sham to those too poor to attend college. An uneducated pauper sees no difference between the hipster coder who graduated from an engineering program, the UX designer who pines for social justice, and the museum director who has a PhD in Tibetian calligraphy: they're all far richer than the pauper will ever be, they all complain about things the pauper sees as pointless, and they're all assholes.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:27PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:27PM (#479909)

      Y'know what they say when you are seeing assholes everywhere....

    • (Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday March 16 2017, @07:54PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 16 2017, @07:54PM (#479995) Journal

      Today's separation of STEM from the rest of the liberal arts is a sham to those too poor to attend college.

      And we should care why? Should I consult the opinion of family pets as well?

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:53PM

    by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:53PM (#479929) Journal

    - General education through high school has been watered down by programs like NCLB. Everyone gets an 'A', there are no consequences to failing to learn, we wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings.

    Please provide sources for this silly claim. Kids arent being given A's for failing math. The more likely scenario is they pass kids with D's just to get them out of the school. That practice is nothing new.

    - Probably as a consequence of the first problem: people push their kids to go to college. Vocational education has lost all respect, even though that's where lots of really essential jobs are.
    Reply to This

    In my parents (Boomers) day, College was the big ticket out. That mentality stuck. They looked towards the upper classes and how none of their kids were truckers, welders, electricians, garbage men or landscapers. Those were jobs for dummies and smart kids will get paid more than them. Meanwhile, they were good jobs, paid good, and didn't require taking on debt to qualify for them. Though, my parents never put down those jobs, they just pushed college as the way to make more money than those careers could offer. They want what's best.

    But that was during a time when you could make big money with a degree. Now you have graduates with a 4 year degree working for 40-50k year with 100+k in debt when the garbage man makes 60+k with a pension and benefits. I know a guy working for Con Edison making 140k/yr in substations which consists of him sitting on his ass all day long waiting for something to break. His education? A GED. I know union truck drivers making 100+k/yr and non union drivers making 10-15/hr, 20 if you're really lucky. I know union electricians making $50+/hr and bridge painters making $90+/hr (super dangerous job though).

    Bottom line is the boomers push for higher education as the only means of getting a good paying job is a dead end for many people. And it also doesn't help that manufacturing jobs have nearly disappeared from the US eliminating a lot of basic jobs for people who aren't cut out for higher education or vocational jobs. I'm sure the stigma with low skill and vocational jobs is there on purpose. Cant have people making too much money now can we?

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Kromagv0 on Thursday March 16 2017, @06:10PM (2 children)

    by Kromagv0 (1825) on Thursday March 16 2017, @06:10PM (#479944) Homepage

    Vocational education has lost all respect, even though that's where lots of really essential jobs are.

    Even people who are going for a vocational education don't really understand the difference and view it as a joke. Last year I finished taking a series of 3 classes to expand my skill set at the local Vo-Tech (a good quality one that ins't like ITT, DeVry, etc.) and in each class my fellow students would eventually find out that I already had a BS in CS. This would confuse them as the highest degree offered there was an AAS in software engineering or networking so why would I take a class there when I already have a better degree. I would then explain to them that in my degree I took only 2 classes where I learned how to program. While a number of my classes had a programming aspect to them the programming was to learn and work with other concepts that the class was about. Often times we weren't limited to a programming language and could use any one we wanted (the exception was my AI class where everyone got to suffer through LISP). I then tell them that a BS in CS is very much focused on theory so things like actually setting up and configuring network devices, doing forensic analysis on computer, are not covered. The biggest thing that makes the difference clear is the OS course I took and the OS course they took. In mine I learned about the different kernel styles, how OS manage memory and other resources at the low level, they learned how to work with the tool sets in a Windows and Linux environment so that they could work with and install them as sys admins.

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    • (Score: 1) by Ethanol-fueled on Thursday March 16 2017, @11:23PM (1 child)

      by Ethanol-fueled (2792) on Thursday March 16 2017, @11:23PM (#480097) Homepage

      The sad truth is that an A.S. from a good community college is the same education as what you'd receive at ITT/DeVry at a fraction of the cost. I've talked to some ITT grads recently and was horrified to find out that they didn't even have SpecAns as part of their education.

      The strength of places like ITT and DeVry is in their job-placement programs and I've found ITT grads everywhere I work around here. Unfortunately, ITT just shut down out of nowhere and those who haven't yet finished their degrees are left high and dry, having to either test out at community college or go through school all over again.

      There is none of that risk at a decent community college.

      • (Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Friday March 17 2017, @03:16PM

        by Kromagv0 (1825) on Friday March 17 2017, @03:16PM (#480439) Homepage

        Here in Minnesota there is a difference between the public community colleges and the public vocational and technical colleges. The community colleges while they may offer AA, AS, or AAS degrees still don't to the vocational training and as you said don't have job placement services. On the other hand the vo-techs do only vocational and practical skill courses and do have job placement services. So if you want to try out college you go to the community college and get 2 years of a 4 year degree on the cheap and maybe get and associates of arts in your prospective major done and then finish with a BA or BS in it at a 4 year school. If instead you want to become a machinist, electrician, networking technician, mechanic, plumber, general contractor, beautician, graphic designer, etc you go off to the vo-tech and get a certificate or up maybe to an AAS depending on the course. For example here is the offerings at the nearby community college [normandale.edu] for programs while here is the offerings at the nearby vo-tech [dctc.edu] so you end up with very different educations depending on where you go.

        Personally I think this is a good thing and while high school teachers and administrators all push the you need a BA or BS because a high school diploma doesn't cut it they are only half right. Not everyone needs BA or BS and most people should not be getting them, but what they do need is an AA, AS, AAS, AFA, or certificate program once they finish high school as a high school diploma basically meas you managed to show up reasonably consistently to some place for the last 13 or so years. What high schools should be doing more of is expanding post secondary programs like what my school had when I was in. If students wanted they could go up to Normandale community college and take classes that would transfer to a 4 year college or go to Dakota County Technical College (DCTC) and start learning a trade. I had a few friends who went to DCTC for the bulk of the junior and senior years and learned a trade like welding, being an electrician, or a mechanic, yet very few people went to Normandale even if they were planning on going to a 4 year school afterwards. It was strange as none of the very top GPA kids went there yet the 3 of us in my senior class (of over 600) who did got a far better education and entered our 4 year schools with junior standing instead of as 0 credit freshmen. The best part was that the school district would pay for you to take summer classes too, which is what you would need to do to enter college as a junior after exiting high school.

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