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If you ever need to strike up a conversation with a group of academics, a surefire way to get them talking is to ask about their graduate training. Where did they train, in what methods, in which lab, under what mentor? People will speak with great pride about their training as an economist, historian, chemist, philosopher, or classicist. If, on the other hand, you need to make a quick exit, try sharing the opinion that undergraduate education should include a lot more vocational training. You'll soon find yourself standing alone or responding to accusations of classism and questions about your commitment to social and racial equality. You might even hear that "training is for dogs," a common refrain in higher education that carries the unpleasant implication that skills-based education is the equivalent of teaching students to sit, stay, and shake hands.
For reasons that are not entirely clear, in the United States training is widely understood to be the end, not the beginning, of an educational journey that leads to a particular job or career. Undergraduates are supposed to get a general education that will prepare them for training, which they will presumably get once they land a job or go to graduate school. Any training that happens before then just doesn't count.
It is because of this belief that general-education requirements are the center of the bachelor's degree and are concentrated in the first two years of a four-year program. The general-education core is what distinguishes the B.A. from a vocational program and makes it more than "just training." It is designed to ensure that all degree holders graduate with a breadth of knowledge in addition to an in-depth understanding of a particular subject area. Students are exposed to a broad range of disciplines and are pushed to think critically about the social, cultural, and historical context in which they live. It is supposed to guarantee that all graduates can write, have a basic understanding of the scientific method, have heard of the Marshall Plan and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and know that iambic pentameter has something to do with poetry.
While few would challenge the importance of general education, both to students and to a well-functioning democracy, there is good reason to question why it has to come at the beginning of a B.A.—and just how general and theoretical it needs to be. The pyramid structure of the bachelor's degree, which requires that students start with the broad base of general requirements before they specialize, is what makes college unappealing to so many young people.
It doesn't have to be this way. There is no iron law of learning dictating that students must master general theories or be fully versed in a particular historical or cultural context before learning how to do things. Some students will do well under this approach, but there is solid evidence that some students learn better through experience. For these students, theory does not make sense until it is connected to action. Putting a lot of general or theoretical courses on the front end just leaves them disengaged or, even worse, discouraged. They will do better if they start by learning how to master certain tasks or behaviors and then explore the more abstract concepts behind the actions.
-- submitted from IRC
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 16 2017, @02:35PM (7 children)
Can't agree, TMB.
Can you imagine an illiterate engineer? An engineer who DOES NOT understand the scientific method? Alright, so maybe he doesn't really need poetry. On the other hand, any supposedly educated person who knows nothing of poetry is probably a terribly boring shit when you get him away from the job. (Even I like certain flavors of poetry, though I am very discriminating.) Same with the Marshall Plan, and Maslow. The American engineer who knows absolutely nothing about US history is probably as boring as the engineer who has never recited a poem. And, the heirarchy? Well - maybe he can do without that silly pyramid. Who needs food, water, warmth, or rest, when there are interesting projects to work on? Work til you drop, dude!! Stroke (or heart attack) at age 30?
I'm certainly not advocating a liberal arts degree (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) but people should have a little more education than just physics and math. If they don't, then they are just some kind of idiot savant or something like that.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 16 2017, @02:49PM (6 children)
Depends on the kind of engineering. A chemical engineer is definitely going to need the SM but a bridge builder is not; they need math. Teaching people to not be boring is not worth tens of thousands of dollars and it should never be a job requirement.
The above is assuming you're correct in your assumption that non-formally-educated people are boring, which is incorrect. You should get out and meet more people. I know plenty who are damned interesting and can think as deeply as anyone with a degree; many of whom never finished highschool. With the added benefit of they probably won't regurgitate the inane garbage they were taught but actually have to think about things at least a little bit to form an opinion on them.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @03:03PM (2 children)
Sounds like you just have a chip on your shoulder. People shouldn't be so judgmental about lack of a college degree, but you shouldn't go the opposite route and say most of it is worthless. There is more to life... Sounds more like you're annoyed by the average human.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:04PM (1 child)
You think the average human has a college degree? Interesting...
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 16 2017, @05:33PM
As usual you aren't thinking very critically...
won't regurgitate the inane garbage they were taught but actually have to think about things at least a little bit to form an opinion on them
The average human regurgitates what they've been told to various degrees. Not many humans think critically about much of anything, they learn about the world through various methods and then stick to what they learned mostly. College or no college this seems to hold true, and it would require education to focus on critical thinking and teach it from the start. However, that isn't what the leaders want, they just want good workers. They've pushed from STEM because that is what they need in their workforce, it has nothing to do with making better citizens.
Anyway, for every example of college educated shitheads I can pull up an example of an uneducated shithead. Get the chip off your shoulder son.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 16 2017, @03:04PM (1 child)
Well, there's nothing to argue with, there. I'm completely in agreement that a formal education isn't necessary for a person to be interesting. But, an education is necessary. Father in law, for instance. His formal education ended at the 6th grade. But, he pursued his education all of his life. The old man knew stuff that I never did figure out. I'm half sure that I've mentioned him here, before. If you could state any mathematical problem to him, he would give you the solution, faster than anyone nearby could punch it into a calculator. Not just simple sums, but any algebra or geometry problem. I don't think he grasped Einstein's physics math, but I can't say for sure. All that was required, was that YOU were both smart and fluent enough to state the problem correctly.
The old man knew a butt-load of poetry, he knew his Bible, he knew agriculture, trees, and animal husbandry. He dabbled in just about everything that I could imagine.
No, a formal education isn't essential, but an education is.
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Thursday March 16 2017, @03:31PM
My dad is a retired mechanical engineer and electrical engineer with about 50/50 military and medical engineering experience. I learned more from him growing up than I ever did in school. I got a two year aas in machine tool technology for dirt cheap, and have been able to be the sole breadwinner for my family the whole time.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bob_super on Thursday March 16 2017, @06:15PM
Teaching people how to properly express themselves and communicate is critical in highly technical environments too.
I've read enough datasheets and product descriptions, heard enough tech presentations, to know how some people can be great at coding or designing while requiring an english-to-english translator (providing both interpretation and censorship) to function in a team.