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posted by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @10:48AM   Printer-friendly
from the drupal-gored dept.

Drupal founder Dries Buytaert expelled Larry "Crell" Garfield from the Drupal community (archive) for his involvement in the BDSM community. Garfield claims this was done at the demand of Drupal Security team member Klaus "klausi" Purer and unknown others secretly pressuring Drupal leadership to have him removed for his private sex life.

takyon: From Larry's response:

I am involved in two such communities, specifically the BDSM community and the Gorean (Gor) community. The former is by far the larger of the two and more varied, although I spend more of my time and activity in the Gorean community. It's a small community, and sadly much of what is found online about it is utter crap, just as most in the BDSM community find the "50 Shades" representation of BDSM to be harmfully misleading. The Gorean subculture is inspired by a science-fiction book series written from the 1960s onward to today, and predicated on a strong sense of personal honor, integrity, and community. It also practices consensual Master/slave relationships, and has a strong gender bias toward male-Dom/female-sub relationships, but that is not the cornerstone of Gorean culture. There are other groups that are biased the other way, or have no gender bias. There are even groups in Chicago (where I live) that have regular "fem-dom" parties. To each their own.

It's the same Gor that was adapted into two films, one of which appeared on an episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000.


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  • (Score: 2, Disagree) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @05:32PM (13 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @05:32PM (#484724)

    Live and let live - agreed.

    Private matters should not affect employability - agreed.

    However, this public posting would seem to be a willing "outing" of his sex life - making it no longer private.

    I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 27 2017, @06:58PM (#484782)

    I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

    How so? Does his sex life off the clock affect his coding while on the job? Can you give us any examples?

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @07:17PM (4 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @07:17PM (#484803) Journal

      How so? Does his sex life off the clock affect his coding while on the job? Can you give us any examples?

      The obvious thing is when his sex life off the clock brings problems on the clock. There are a variety of ways that can happen such as porn surfing on the clock, sexual discrimination, off the clock criminal charges that harm the reputation of the organization.

      But what's interesting here is that no such problems have been mentioned. For example:

      The Gorean philosophy promoted by Larry is based on the principle that women are evolutionarily predisposed to serve men and that the natural order is for men to dominate and lead.

      According to Garfield, it's just a great way to be kinky in your relationships and he emphasizes consensual master/slave relationships.

      The Gorean subculture is inspired by a science-fiction book series written from the 1960s onward to today, and predicated on a strong sense of personal honor, integrity, and community. It also practices consensual Master/slave relationships, and has a strong gender bias toward male-Dom/female-sub relationships, but that is not the cornerstone of Gorean culture. There are other groups that are biased the other way, or have no gender bias. There are even groups in Chicago (where I live) that have regular "fem-dom" parties. To each their own.

      So according to Garfield, he isn't promoting the "Gorean philosophy". In his own words, he's having fun.

      Maybe there were legitimate problems which have no been brought out in the open, but I don't see the case made for exiling Garfield.

      • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday March 27 2017, @08:01PM (3 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Monday March 27 2017, @08:01PM (#484837) Journal

        And guess what we call

        consensual master/slave relationships.

        ?? Slavery! There are some things to which even mentally competent adults cannot consent. We might even say that if they do, they are not mentally competent? Now of course, if it is only pretend slavery, but where is the fun in that?

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @08:54PM (2 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @08:54PM (#484867) Journal

          ?? Slavery! There are some things to which even mentally competent adults cannot consent.

          The obvious rebuttal is that the "slave" party can leave the relationship any time they want (since the relationship is consensual). That makes it not slavery for those keeping track.

          • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday March 27 2017, @09:13PM (1 child)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Monday March 27 2017, @09:13PM (#484880) Journal

            khallow!!! Did I give you permission to comment in this thread? No? Hold out your hands! Where did I leave that riding crop? No, I will not listen to your latest appeal to the pedant's dictionary! You need to be punished, on your obvious rebutt.al. Leave? There is no "leave". Now, hold out your hands, knuckles up. NOW!!

            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:15AM

              by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday March 28 2017, @12:15AM (#484944) Journal

              Do you have a newsletter?

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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bradley13 on Monday March 27 2017, @07:02PM

    by bradley13 (3053) on Monday March 27 2017, @07:02PM (#484786) Homepage Journal

    He "told" because he was fired for his sexual preferences, and told to keep the reason quiet. "Telling" the real reason he was fired, rather than quietly disappearing, is his only possible defense. WTF else was he supposed to do.

    BTW, it took a lot of guts to out himself.

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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @07:06PM (5 children)

    by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Monday March 27 2017, @07:06PM (#484789) Journal

    However, this public posting would seem to be a willing "outing" of his sex life - making it no longer private.

    I didn't ask, but he told anyway... that would seem to be soild grounds for dismissal.

    If you are talking about the garfieldtech.com link in the summary, he had already been exiled before he "outed" himself, and had already been outed internally (leaked info from a private site).

    I do not suffer threats and bullying lightly. I immediately referred the matter back to the CWG, who tried to set up a mediation that consisted of a single conversation with each of Klaus and I and concluded once again that I had in no way violated the Code of Conduct.

    Apparently, during this time, Klaus continued to "monitor" my posting on the private forum and share further excerpts from there with the CWG, at least, in a continued effort to get them to kickban me. (See previous statement about their Terms of Service.)

    Then on 24 February I got a phone call from Drupal project lead Dries Buytaert. Apparently Klaus was insisting that I be removed from DrupalCon (where I have been a track chair for many years, and was selected as a speaker) before speakers were announced the following Monday (the 27th). It seems Dries and Drupal Association Executive Director Megan Sanicki had been informed of the situation weeks earlier, but neither had reached out to me once about it. Now, in my first contact with Dries, he asked me "to step down from Drupal", including as a Drupal advocate for the PHP community, "in the best interest of the project".

    [...] We talked further, but Dries wouldn't budge on me leaving, including making it clear that it wasn't an option, but an instruction. The conversation ended with Dries saying "think about it, let's talk again, maybe soon", and indicating that he needed "time to process".

    [...] The next communication I received from the Association was an email from Megan on Monday 27 February, informing me that I'd been summarily dismissed from my position as track chair and as a speaker at DrupalCon, "per [my] conversation with Dries".

    I do not know if "per my conversation with Dries" means I'm unwelcome in Drupal because of my sex life, I'm unwelcome in Drupal because Dries was afraid Klaus would go public and embarrass the project otherwise, or something else. I have been given no further information than that and still have not been.

    I never expected to be subject to prejudice and discrimination in Drupal, least of all from Drupal's leadership. I therefore referred the matter to the Board of Directors, as I didn't think they would approve of discrimination within the community. The Board's only available time to meet was while I was presenting at a conference and thus was unable to attend, instead submitting my case in writing, at length, detailing the same information as I've presented here and then some. They sent me no questions in advance of the meeting. I know nothing of the Board's internal deliberations. I only know that their response came back "The board has voted to affirm Megan’s decision to revoke the session for DrupalCon Baltimore and end the track chair term."

    (emphasis mine)

    His post was on March 22nd, Buytaert's anemic response was the next day. But he was done for before March 22nd. Sure, he outed the gory details of his sexual relationship preferences... which were actually pretty tame and should not lead to dismissal at all.

    Get how you're wrong, eh?

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    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @07:33PM (4 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @07:33PM (#484818)

      I get that I'm an outside observer, getting slanted dribs and drabs of an incomplete version of the whole story.

      I did garner a bit about wearing leather to work. I perceived a willingness, even eagerness to discuss the whole thing in the writing that I read. It could be that he was absolutely silent and 100% discrete about it at work and this only came out after a third party brought it into the workplace (which, in itself, could still be his fault in some circumstances), or it could be that he bent anyone and everyone's ear about it at every opportunity - I'm sure it was somewhere in-between.

      Where on that spectrum his actual behavior fell vs. the expectations of the workplace culture would determine how just/un-just this firing was. Do something like this at an indie-startup operating in the San Francisco tenderloin district - I think you'd have to take this pretty far for it to be a justified firing. Do something like this at a conservative accounting firm in the Midwest, the slightest hint of "kinky" might be adequate grounds for dismissal.

      I also do not intimately know the internal culture at Drupal, which has a big bearing on how outraged one should or shouldn't be at this... and, in the end, we're talking about what's "fair," and grown adults with any experience in the real world should know by now: there is no such thing as "fair" in life.

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      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday March 27 2017, @08:16PM (3 children)

        by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Monday March 27 2017, @08:16PM (#484849) Journal

        I did garner a bit about wearing leather to work.

        I wasn't sure what @bradley13 mentioned existed, but I found it. Here is the kinky BDSM wear [ohthehugemanatee.org] in question (found on Google images at various angles [ytimg.com]). If you look closely, you can probably see nipple clamps.

        He has also worn a fedora [museumsandtheweb.com], a symbol of extreme hatred towards women and the concept of God.

        Aside from the leather signalling, he had a geeky obscure goodbye that apparently nobody connected to Gor for years.

        there is no such thing as "fair" in life.

        Larry might have been hurt by this, but it looks like Drupal will hurt more by losing at least one major contributor and driving people off (you can see some of them in the comments on both articles). Balance wins in the end. At least Larry has exited the toxic environment of Drupal.

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        • (Score: 3, Funny) by JoeMerchant on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (1 child)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday March 27 2017, @08:45PM (#484860)

          Having said there is no such thing as "fair," let me follow up with: there is such a thing as "karma." Karma doesn't work reliably, or always visibly, or fairly, but it does tend to move people from where they are, closer to where they probably deserve to be. As you said, exiting Drupal is probably more blessing than curse, even if it isn't what he wanted.

          What I wonder is: why, in the age of "employment at will" clauses, did Drupal give any reason for dismissal? The top two explanations I can think of are: A) they're seeking attention from the ensuing outrage, and B) they're idiots. Note, these are not mutually exclusive options.

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          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @09:04PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @09:04PM (#484871) Journal

            What I wonder is: why, in the age of "employment at will" clauses, did Drupal give any reason for dismissal? The top two explanations I can think of are: A) they're seeking attention from the ensuing outrage, and B) they're idiots. Note, these are not mutually exclusive options.

            Because externally imposed rules aren't the only constraints. For example, consider the case of Stalin's reign over the USSR. He was sufficiently in control that he could have offed people without explanation. But by going through show-trials and similar theater, his regime gave ideological cover to its supporters and increased the level of control over society. Mikhail wasn't a hapless chump who got executed by random lot to scare the rest of us. He was a counterrevolutionary with sympathies to various western bad guys. With that trivial amount of spin, everything is made right for the true believer.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 27 2017, @08:57PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday March 27 2017, @08:57PM (#484869) Journal
          Don't forget the black slacks! One can almost hear the whip cracking!