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In the 1980's people wrote about malls as cultural centers, as temples to shopping. Now, they're dying.
Many observers are speculating about the growing trend of so-called dead malls: once-flourishing, large retail spaces that now have a high vacancy rate, low numbers of pedestrian traffic, or the lack of an "anchor" store (typically a department chain). Is it because of economic recession, or stagnant middle-class wages and growing income inequality? Or has the death of these malls been hastened by the rapid growth of online shopping?
It's difficult to say, but the dead mall phenomenon is becoming a cultural item of interest -- for retail historians, urban explorers and documentarians alike. We may read about dead malls in The New York Times or The Atlantic, but film footage can say much more than words.
Is Amazon to blame?
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Tuesday April 25 2017, @04:47PM (30 children)
People shopping at Amazon is one thing, but where are people going to just hang out? When I was a teenager, my friends and I frequently went to the mall to hang out, because there really wasn't much else to do, especially if the weather was lousy. We never bought much, except food at the food court, but we walked around and looked at stuff, hung out at the food court, etc. Even at older ages, it was fun to go there with an SO and window-shop, get a drink or a snack, maybe eat at one of the restaurants, etc.
Of course, people walking around a lot and window-shopping, or checking things out in person and then ordering them online, doesn't help mall stores stay in business, but this article isn't talking about lack of sales, it specifically calls out low pedestrian traffic. Where are people going? What other places are there for people to hang out in public? Maybe a local park if the weather is nice, sure, but in many places of the US the weather isn't very nice for large parts of the year: it's too cold, too hot, or too wet. There's a reason the country's largest indoor mall is in Minnesota, and the world's largest indoor mall is (was?) in Edmonton Canada: normal people don't like hanging around outside when it's below freezing.
I'm sorry, I find it a little hard to believe that everyone's just staying at home now.
(Score: 2) by takyon on Tuesday April 25 2017, @04:53PM (15 children)
I have heard that open air malls are doing well. Get a clothing store, theater, restaurants, etc. Into one area. Lower operating costs than an air conditioned mall.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday April 25 2017, @04:57PM (14 children)
Where did you "hear" this? From the companies pushing these things?
They're nice enough when the weather is nice. What about when it's below freezing, or when it's over 90F? What about when it's raining? There's a reason we humans invented the "roof".
(Score: 3, Interesting) by takyon on Tuesday April 25 2017, @05:17PM (5 children)
You can have cover to block rain and provide shade. And if it's cold outside, you just enter a shop/restaurant/pub/whatever.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/03/death-enclosed-mall [motherjones.com]
https://newrepublic.com/article/121203/american-malls-are-changing-their-look-and-their-tactics [newrepublic.com]
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday April 25 2017, @06:30PM (3 children)
you just enter a shop/restaurant/pub/whatever.
Yeah whats up with the design pattern that all strip malls seem to have the same stores?
At every intersection of two major arterial roads, there's the Chinese takeout place, the manicure place that is always next door to the Chinese takeout, there's a bank branch or mortgage company or payday loan(shark) (or worst of all, title-loans), a pizza place, some kind of dollar store or a grocery store or pharmacy. 50:50 on a new fitness type of gym (like not a giant Golds but more of a 24-anytime-fitness mini-gym, there's one about every mile in every direction). Again 50:50 on a Starbucks coffee. A fast food joint or panera bread or juice dealer (jamba, whatever) probably in the parking lot. Now repeat that 2000 feet down the road in every direction. Every strip mall is the same.
Now whats interesting is its very unusual to have a store that doesn't fit the formula. I live near the Asians in a wealthy area so we have a Kumon. I don't want to get into a Kumon debate but we'll just say it seems to work very well teaching math to asian kids but not so much my kids. And a town to the east the biggest strip mall has, of all things, a Hooters restaurant. And thats the only variation in formula I can think of for several dozen strip malls, the formula is pretty strict.
(Score: 2) by nethead on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:52AM (2 children)
When I was young, decades ago, I always wanted to travel America. Now that I have the means and enough vacation a year to do so, why? It's all turned into an infinite loop of what you described. Traveling for business, I found it all mostly the same, Tampa, St. Louis, Huntington Beach, Philly, Boesman, Wasilla, wherever. About the only way I've found to avoid that is to follow the coast through poor little towns that can't afford the strip mall. Anyplace over about 15k population has gone chain.
How did my SN UID end up over 3 times my /. UID?
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Wednesday April 26 2017, @12:50PM
sudo mod me up
(Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday April 26 2017, @03:08PM
If its any consolation, its nothing new, decades ago uncle sam sent me to various military bases in the US (never did get overseas) and obviously military bases are interchangeable but the usual town that grows up around the base was also mostly interchangeable.
Getting out in the field, the wilderness is highly variable, however.
In the field the difference between, I donno, Ft Dix and Redstone is pretty obvious, but in garrison (barracks buildings) or in town you can't tell.
Its very easy to get a Whopper at Ft Dix or at Redstone, or at least it used to be, but its pretty hard to get regional food.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday April 25 2017, @08:37PM
I've been to the newer lifestyle centers in the Phoenix area; there's no cover there. Rain isn't a big problem of course, but sunlight is. So they were really nice to visit in the winter (there is no fall or spring in Phoenix), but in the summer forget it. No thanks, I don't want to stroll around in 115 degree heat.
(Score: 2) by Oakenshield on Tuesday April 25 2017, @06:00PM (4 children)
There is also a regular mall even closer to my house and parking is never an issue there. Store turnover there is brutal and we expect its Macy's, JC Penney and Sears anchor stores to go tits up any minute. Foot traffic inside the mall is not what it was just a few years ago.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday April 25 2017, @08:42PM (2 children)
I'm really starting to wonder how much of this is "white flight": the poorer minorities are hanging out at the older malls, and the richer white people are flocking to the newer "lifestyle centers" despite the exposure to the elements, because the minorities aren't there (and the minorities don't bother because it's outdoors, and because there's no stores there that interest them).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:27PM (1 child)
There was a recent alt-right discussion about how SWPL left wing people survive as minorities in urban environments by weaponizing SWPL-ness, the 2 million brown people in the city don't care about vegan drum circles and thats how the SWPLs self-preserve in pure white admittedly toxically left wing enclaves, the larger group they live in is very diverse but the people they hang out with at the Kombucha farm or the dredlock hair dresser or antifa bar is less diverse than the right wing people in the burbs experience. I have seen that in person, visiting a Whole Foods in the hood and that was the only building for a couple miles around that was whiter than a Klan meeting. Well, or an antifa meeting, those are always pasty pale white too. Its like using left wing white culture as a gated community to keep the minorities out, which is how they survive.
Its relevant to the discussion because that is basically your "because there's no stores there that interest them"
That's my local mall's strategy. Remember during the election Hillary wore these weird $8K Chairman Mao pantsuit outfits? There's a whole store at the mall selling those and they don't appeal much to the "hip hop urbanware crowd".
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @12:26AM
No msg.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @06:15PM
at ours.
I think they ended up merging a pair of Men's and Women's stores into one at one location, but the rest have closed. Furthermore Sears is awaiting K-Mart going bankrupt and then it will be gone too.
(Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:48PM (2 children)
There's one of these near me. It gets tons of traffic even in the dead of freezing winter (well, such that winter is, these days). I actually went there at such a time thinking I'd enjoy seeing it empty, but was disappointed.
1. There's fire pits in some of the bigger intersections that give off heat; people hang around these. The biggest one has a gazebo-like roof/chimney thing.
2. There's a coffee shop a small one featured in the other big intersection besides the one with the gazebo, plus some other stylish self-serve cafe places that serve hot drinks (besides the restaurants).
3. People mostly seem to hang out at the theatre, the restaurants, the way-too-small/expensive boutique clothing/furniture stores, or around various handsomely decorated little squares.
I assume that's what the kids do these days. You'll note a lack of electronics or videogames or music or such though... all of the stores are clothing or furniture stores, and only one clothing store sells men's clothes.
(Score: 2) by Oakenshield on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:57PM
Philistines... Our fancy dancy outdoor mall has an Apple Store. And we have a bookstore that's literally as big as an aircraft hanger. They have music, videos, software, calendars, toys, a coffee shop, a yogurt shop, games of all kinds (RPG, Cards, Boards, etc.) and if you search real hard, you might find a book. Don't get you hopes up though, they're tough to find.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:23PM
Sounds similar to the one I used to live near several years ago. However, it had a giant Barnes & Noble: that's where you go for music these days, if you're a "dinosaur" who still buys it on CD (you can also go to Walmart, but we're talking about "lifestyle center" outdoor malls here and those don't have Walmarts). But games and music these days are almost always sold online so it makes sense there's no stores selling those now, except maybe for weird antique/vintage stores that sell old 8-bit consoles and games from the 80s (again, you won't find those in a trendy outdoor mall). For electronics, there's the Apple Store (a common fixture in trendy/upscale shopping centers), but that's about it; it's the perfect place to pay top dollar for a new set of Bluetooth headphones/earbuds to go with your new iPhone which doesn't have a headphone jack.
As for men's clothes, the outdoor mall I mentioned above did have a "Lids" (or is it "Lidz"?) store, since young men all seem to like wearing stupid-looking baseball caps these days. Most of the shops in that place seemed to be restaurants (both nice sit-down and cheaper ones) and expensive clothing stores, along with the anchors: B&N and the theater.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @05:39PM (2 children)
If you're a teenager, the mall was an attractive place to go.
Not these days. They have a loud high-pitched screeching noise playing that only teenagers are supposed to hear. So anybody under the age of 50 without a hearing problem. If you can hear it, it's proof you're a teenager and up to no good, even if your ID says you're middle age.
They have mall cops that will harass teenagers or anybody who's just short.
That's a lot of people they chase away from malls.
Me specifically, now that I'm all growed up, there are better places for me to hang out rather than putting up with that screeching or worry about whether a mall cop is going to think I'm a loitering teenager.
Now malls wonder why nobody goes? wtf! They didn't want anybody there!
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @06:07PM (1 child)
Reminds me of a tale I heard some time ago, could be fiction but I found it interesting.
A local car dealership that sold expensive sports cars was successful while many rival dealerships in the same area were failing. The owner attributed his success to the fact that his business never shunned anyone who came in: often teenagers would come in, clearly with no ability to purchase the products (they just want to drive a cool car for a bit) but it did not matter to this dealer. They got to test drive just like any other prospective buyer.
Later, some of those teenagers become financially successful people who drive expensive cars. Where will they go to buy one? It won't be the dealership that told them to fuck off when they were younger, that's for sure.
(Score: 2) by Kromagv0 on Wednesday April 26 2017, @04:51PM
I use to do that. At the high end car dealers they would entertain you and let you test drive most things (never did get to take out a BMW Z8 or MB SLR) while the regular ones would often judge you and treat you like trash. What is interesting is that now as a fairly well off professional those same low end car dealers still will blow me off. For example when I had to replace my previous car I was driving around in my beater jeep for a couple of weeks and found that this still is the case. At the near by Maserati, BMW, Mercedes, and Aston Martin dealers they were happy to show me the car I was interested in and then would suggest that I not only take that one out for a test drive but that I consider some other much more expensive and/or fun car and bring that around as well. At the regular dealerships I would actively get steered away from the car I wanted to see and was often told that they didn't let people test drive those cars. So in the end I bought a used BMW from the Maserati dealer as that was the nicest car with the features I wanted in my price range that I saw.
T-Shirts and bumper stickers [zazzle.com] to offend someone
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday April 25 2017, @06:42PM (2 children)
A lot of them no longer allow the teens to hang out.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday April 25 2017, @07:13PM (1 child)
Have you ever visited a "diverse urban" public library? Its a daycare for non-white kids who run wild, pushing everyone out who isn't a kid enjoying free daycare.
The same thing happens at the malls.
"See, we're not racist, we don't allow any unaccompanied under age people of any race or color"
One of the local malls in a borderline area has a sign with a truly amazing curfew of 1pm, where after 1pm under 18 are technically allowed but only in presence of an adult.
(Score: 2) by sjames on Tuesday April 25 2017, @08:48PM
Actually, I have. It was a lot like any other library. So are most of the "diverse kids" at the mall.
It's mostly only a problem for the sort who whisper "those people" to their friends when they mean non-white.
(Score: 2) by VLM on Tuesday April 25 2017, @07:37PM (1 child)
because there really wasn't much else to do
I think we're about the same age. Same situation when I was a kid. The modern solution is hyperscheduling. At least two sports and a music instrument at all times, right? And don't forget scouts...
Another curiosity, when I was a kid, summer school was for the slow kids and I never went. Today they compete with Parks n Rec to see who can provide more Tai Chi classes. So my kids go to summer school and don't learn any academics, weird but true. "Playground games" is just organized gym class. There's actually a middle school class where the kids play board games all summer.
For parents of little authoritarianism, they can pay money to parks and rec to yell at their kids to silent read for an hour, which I find vaguely unbelievable, but true. I guess for a modern fatherless world there's moms who need a librarian to lay down the smack to get some reading done, but all I can do with that one is LOL, seriously, hiring a librarian to tell your kids to "STFU and read" for an hour... I'm like WTF speechless...
I never would have believed this in the 80s but here we are.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday April 25 2017, @07:59PM
The 80s were really a wonderful time compared to now. The dystopias predicted back then have come true.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:25PM (5 children)
People shopping at Amazon is one thing, but where are people going to just hang out? When I was a teenager, my friends and I frequently went to the mall to hang out, because there really wasn't much else to do, especially if the weather was lousy. We never bought much, except food at the food court, but we walked around and looked at stuff, hung out at the food court, etc. Even at older ages, it was fun to go there with an SO and window-shop, get a drink or a snack, maybe eat at one of the restaurants, etc.
When I was a teenager, I would go to a local park and play frisbee and/or smoke pot with my brothers and/or friends.
Otherwise, I'd hang out with friends at their houses and smoke pot, or sit for hours in coffee shops bullshitting with my friends.
If the weather was bad, I'd often go to a museum (I started doing that around age 10 or so). Sometimes I'd go to concerts at large venues or live music at bars and clubs (the drinking age was 18 back then, and even so it was lightly enforced. It was helpful if you were with a cute girl: they always got in and you with them).
On weekend nights, I'd often take LSD and wander around the big city in which I lived with similarly situated friends.
I *never* went to a mall. Actually, the closest mall was 13 miles away and at least 1.5 hours on public transportation. Besides, why would I want to go to a mall? It was just a bunch of stores and there were stores everywhere.
I'd also ride my bicycle almost everywhere. My parents (or others) never drove me anywhere. I did what I wanted, when I wanted. And had an after-school job to make money to pay for my drugs.
If I'd grown up in the suburbs, I think I might have committed suicide just from the boredom.
I suppose malls were better than nothing if you didn't have culture and drugs.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @12:36AM (4 children)
Congratulations on spending your youth doped up. That's definitely more worthy than what those boring people were doing _in the burbs_. I mean, you are going to call yourself superior to kids who spent Saturday sixpacking it because you prefer to smoke your buzz? Lame poser.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by NotSanguine on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:11AM (2 children)
Congratulations on spending your youth doped up. That's definitely more worthy than what those boring people were doing _in the burbs_. I mean, you are going to call yourself superior to kids who spent Saturday sixpacking it because you prefer to smoke your buzz? Lame poser.
I never said I was superior, or had a better experience than others. It was just different.
I'm glad I grew up the way I did. That says nothing about other people. Just about me.
Bitter much?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:40AM (1 child)
You pretty much said it in your final sentences:
"If I'd grown up in the suburbs, I think I might have committed suicide just from the boredom.
I suppose malls were better than nothing if you didn't have culture and drugs."
The superiority is right there for all to see.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by NotSanguine on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:45AM
The superiority is right there for all to see.
Your inferiority complex is showing, AC.
Have you considered therapy to address your insecurity issues?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday April 26 2017, @03:20AM
kids who spent Saturday sixpacking it
Oh, and I did drink my fair share of 40s [urbandictionary.com].
So take your self-righteous bullshit elsewhere.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr