Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by Fnord666 on Tuesday April 25 2017, @08:54PM   Printer-friendly
from the OBIPP? dept.

The Liberal premier of Ontario announced details of the Ontario Basic Income Pilot. The provincial government issued a press release saying

Three regions will take part in the study. Pilots will start in late spring in Hamilton, including Brantford and Brant County; and in Thunder Bay and the surrounding area. The third pilot will start by this fall [autumn] in Lindsay.

The Basic Income model Ontario has developed will ensure that eligible participants receive:

        Up to $16,989 per year for a single person, less 50 per cent of any earned income
        Up to $24,027 per year for a couple, less 50 per cent of any earned income
        Up to an additional $6,000 per year for a person with a disability.

[...] The three test regions will host 4,000 participants eligible to receive a basic income payment, between the ages of 18 to 64. By late spring, people in these areas will begin receiving information about the pilot and how to participate. The province is partnering with these communities and other experts to make sure that the Ontario Basic Income Pilot is fair, effective, and scientifically valid.

additional coverage:

related story:
Ontario is Starting a Universal Basic Income Pilot


Original Submission

 
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:12PM (44 children)

    Fair would be killing the rich, or grabbing them by their fucking necks, turning them upside down, and shaking out OUR fucking money.

    And it's your money, how, precisely? You did what, exactly, for them to warrant them paying you? I know you're sure as fuck not going to agree to someone you've never met coming up and demanding your wallet because you happen to have the drive and ambition to make more of yourself than they do.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Moderation   +2  
       Insightful=2, Total=2
    Extra 'Insightful' Modifier   0  
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   4  
  • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:16PM (7 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:16PM (#499587)

    Stand and deliver. Your money or your life.

    Time was desperate beggars would murder you for your wallet. Lucky for you in modern times your surveillance state protects you.

    You sir are a pussy hiding behind your nanny state.

    • (Score: 3, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:24PM (6 children)

      The nanny state doesn't protect me from the poor and lazy. It protects them from me. I could shoot a mugger in the face and sleep like a baby that night.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:34PM (5 children)

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:34PM (#499645) Journal

        You would shoot Oliver Twist?

        Speaking of caricatures, do you realize "a mugger" is one? You're talking like "bad" people are spawn in an FPS game, one around every corner. Mugging is not the sort of activity anyone can make a long, successful, and lucrative career out of. Do you think there's any place today in the US where the likes of Oliver Twist and the pickpocket crime boss Fagin can long thrive? In the real world, petty criminals are much, much rarer. They're people, with complicated histories. Sometimes, desperate people commit petty crimes because they want to be arrested, they want some shelter and a jail cell is the best option available. Sometimes, the criminal is a mental patient who didn't take their meds that day, maybe they ran out, maybe they were confiscated by some pigs looking to score points in the War on Drugs during a stop and frisk. Sometimes they're troubled teens. And sometimes, like Oliver Twist, they're being bullied and threatened into taking the risk of being caught, so someone else can profit from the crime. As for criminal organizations, they aren't much interested in chicken feed that has to be taken by force. The bosses are not idiots, they're rational. They'd much rather deal drugs or something else easy than get into shootouts they might not survive.

        The last thing we need is for some vigilante jackass to pull out a deadly weapon and start mowing down people who he thinks committed a petty crime.

        • (Score: 2, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:38PM (4 children)

          No, I would drag his ass by the ear to the police though.

          And people pulling out deadly weapons to prevent crimes upon themselves is absolutely something we need more of in this nation. It will make crime decidedly less attractive of a career.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:53PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:53PM (#499666)

            Trolling is a lucrative career, let me tell you. It's great that there aren't any living wage jobs left and the market for part time work is saturated also. It gives us professional trolls so much time to devote to our craft of trolling. And did I mention lucrative? Yes indeed I got paid $0.000 to post this comment. I can take that money to the invisible bank where I keep my imaginary fortune. Soon I'll have enough fantasy money stashed away to buy my own private island on the sea of make believe.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by DannyB on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:27PM (7 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:27PM (#499600) Journal

    because you happen to have the drive and ambition to make more of yourself

    If you were talking about someone in the bottom ninety something percent, I might agree with you.

    People worth many Billions of dollars did not somehow earn or merit that by contributing anything of that much value to society in return. They have gamed the system in order to extract money off the backs of everyone else. Example: Bill Gates. He created great language packages for microcomputers in the 1970's. Then Microsoft created other programs, including a microcomputer version of Adventure. He shrewdly negotiated a deal with IBM to sell them PC DOS and keep the rights to sell it himself as MS-DOS. Great! Then he created an illegal monopoly by illegal tying. Then he milked it. There were other OSes for the IBM PC. But when the clones (OEMs) came out, if an OEM wanted to sell any MS-DOS at all, they had to sell MS-DOS on every PC they made -- even if the customer wanted it with a different OS, which means every competing OS is funding Microsoft. But I'm sure there are plenty of other rich billionaires to pick on also.

    We could talk about executive compensation packages.

    It is not about people who better themselves. It's about people with ambition to steal from everyone else, or somehow skim it on a large scale, or other ways they become so immensely wealthy. In short, too few people have too big a share of the planet's resources for no particularly good reason. Some people deserve a bigger share than others. But not what the 1 % have.

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:36PM (6 children)

      People worth many Billions of dollars did not somehow earn or merit that by contributing anything of that much value to society in return.

      Really? Take Google or Windows or their car or their utilities or their TV or any number of things that everyone expects as part of life nowadays away from the average human and see if they agree with you.

      They earned every penny; you just can't comprehend how or you'd be arguing the same side as I am.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:05PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:05PM (#499626)

        You are dumber than I thought, and a verified lying sociopath / psychopath through your own admissions. You can't comprehend your own limitations which is why you still utter such garbage.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:04AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:04AM (#499733)

        >"... did not somehow earn or merit that ..."
        >"They earned every penny;"

        It is a matter of opinion whether what the did was worth what they got. The real problem is that the US is not using anti-monopoly regulations to limit consolidation of businesses. The reason we don't is that the people making the laws favor pumping up the stock market instead of preventing monopoplistic behavior. If we limited companies to having no more than about a 10% share of their market, it would increase employment, increase product diversity, and reduce the concentration of wealth.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:52AM (1 child)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:52AM (#499806) Homepage Journal

          It is a matter of opinion whether what the did was worth what they got.

          No, it is not. It is a matter of economic fact. If consumers are willing to pay what they ask, every last dime was earned.

          The real problem is that the US is not using anti-monopoly regulations to limit consolidation of businesses.

          I absolutely agree. I am a capitalist and capitalism flourishes only when competition exists in order to ensure that the market works out to the best interests of all parties involved.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday April 26 2017, @05:49PM

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 26 2017, @05:49PM (#500209) Journal

            If consumers are willing to pay what they ask, every last dime was earned.

            I disagree. I'll use broadband as an example.

            I may have no other choice other than to pay what they demand. (Not ask) Simply because there is no competition. But if there were competition, the prices would go down, the service would go up, and everyone would still be making a profit. Just like other businesses.

            You can't say people are willing to pay a monopolist. They simply may have no other choice. Like Oil. Railroads. And until fairly recently Microsoft.

            But I also see you are in favor of competition. In my original reply to "kill the rich", my premise is that they are the ones tilting and gaming the system against everyone. Including creating monopolies for their own unjust enrichment.

            --
            People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:40AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:40AM (#499793)

        Take Google or Windows

        ...please!

  • (Score: 4, Flamebait) by edIII on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:38PM (21 children)

    by edIII (791) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:38PM (#499611)

    It's my money because I worked for it you dumb mother fucker. They need to PAY ME, because I WORKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! You insinuate that we never deserved it in the first place. That's what you forget. It was taking from us. Why the fuck would I work for less than what I need you stupid fucker?!!!!!!!

    That's the executives sitting their with the stolen money in their wallets, under the fucking delusion that is their money. Let me rephrase it for your stupid fucking ass:

    ME: Hey, Bob! Ummm, I worked pretty hard today. Got all of my targets met, and I uhh, don't have enough to live, eat, and pay bills.
    BOB: Gee, why is that?
    ME: Well, and maybe you didn't understand, but my money is in YOUR wallet. Please reach into your wallet and give MY money back.
    BOB: Huh?
    ME: You need to pay me enough so that I can survive. I didn't get that today, because you took some of it and pocketed it. Please take it out so that I can have MY money back.
    BOB: It doesn't work that way. I went to an IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL and I know all the big people. It's who you know.
    ME: What does that have to do with my production? Do you agree I worked today?
    BOB: Of course you worked, but what you don't understand is that I can replace you, outsource you, and that in reality, you have no value.
    ME: Ummm, Bob, what the fuck does that have to do with the 10 hours I just worked? You need to pay me so that I can survive.

    That's the reality you fucking asshole. I'm working just as hard as Bob, who takes long lunches and puts alcohol on his expense account (of which I don't have) and then shows up at 4pm to tell me that I need to do more work after hours. You can go apply for a job at Walmart and/or McDonald's and be an instant ward of the state. That's wrong because I put in a full day of work.

    How about YOU explain why Bob gets so much fucking money, and I deserve to be paid less than what I need?

    BI is not required. Only Living Wages are required, and if we get back to Unions being strong as fuck we can have it. Because it is in issue of representation and group negotiation for work offers. Do NOT SIT there and act like American and Canadian workers get paid fairly. Not fucking nearly enough. SO when we ask for that money, that you feel is being asked without merit, we are asking for OUR fucking money back.

    WE WORKED FOR IT YOU FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We DESERVE IT!!!

    WE ARE GOING TO TAKE BACK WHAT IS OURS, OR THE WORLD WILL FUCKING BURN. Deal with it bitch.

    --
    Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
    • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:42PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:42PM (#499615)

      Hillary lost. Your million cunt march didn't get you what you think you deserve. Bitch.

    • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:43PM (2 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:43PM (#499616)

      This soylentbob sounds like an ass..

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by edIII on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:02PM (1 child)

        by edIII (791) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:02PM (#499625)

        They mostly are.

        I've had unfortunate experiences in my life around executives. Arguments about how the employees are only there to fuck them. From their perspective, it was already an Us. Vs. Them deal.

        What pissed me off was watching them drink alcohol during work hours while actively railing against how much water the girls in a call center were drinking. In a desert. Talking 8 hours a day.

        Yep. A couple hundred dollars (a day or two of lunch expenses) was too much to spend on those hard working women each *month*. They can bring in their own extra water, paid for by themselves.

        That's why I'm so pissed all the time. Workers consistently denied what they need to survive, consistently denied any real chances for advancement, consistently denied workplace safety, and basically consistently denied any time they ask for more. Even though they work for it. Every single day, they work hard enough to deserve dignity.

        That SoylentBob isn't just an asshole. He is bound for a spike in hell because of how he treated his brothers and sisters, and how he took so much during his life and never gave back shit.

        --
        Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:51PM (14 children)

      You worked for their money? I think not. I think you worked for your money by giving them a day's effort and they paid you a mutually agreed upon amount for it. That their intelligence allows them to make more of a unit of effort than yours does is nobody's fault but your own. That they're so good at it that they can then afford to subcontract out the labor does not mean you deserve per work unit what they do. You still only deserve what you deserve because your utility is != to their utility.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:08PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:08PM (#499628)

        Are you secretly the "series of contracts" guy? Sounds like you just want the freedom to totally screw over other people, probably sneak in some bullshit fineprint that makes them your literal slave if they fail to do some insignificant bullshit. People like you make me want to believe in religion, and not for good reasons.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:24PM (1 child)

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:24PM (#499636) Journal

          The series of contracts guy is just some Aspie loser somewhere. He's weird, and delusional, but he doesn't seem evil. More hopelessly dogmatic, something like APK and the hosts file thing on The Green Site. Uzzard here is, as has been mentioned, a self-professed sociopath. He is a good coder, but that's *all,* and you know what your momma says about single purpose devices in the kitchen...

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:46PM (1 child)

          I'm not secretly anyone. I go by the same name on this site that I go by at home and with most of my family. And ask around, I'm not even remotely shy about putting my views under my own handle.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:12PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:12PM (#500032)

            Your "views"? You claim your horrible shit is trolling, but then your a no nonsense straight shooter. You lie, you troll for laughs, you have very selfish viewpoints... Your opinion matters less and less as people figure these things out about you. Try being honest and not lying on a daily basis.

      • (Score: 2) by http on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:32PM (8 children)

        by http (1920) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:32PM (#499685)

        You are operating under the delusion that workers and employers come to a bargaining table with equal power.

        You're getting very angry for no good reason, and it can't be good for your blood pressure. You would do well to shut up about all things not coding rehash. Both your health and the conversation on SN would improve.

        --
        I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:59PM (7 children)

          I'm not remotely angry, man. This is just how I talk. Now back on-topic...

          Have you ever, in your entire life, worked in a union shop? They absolutely have enough bargaining power to make it cheaper on a company to pull up stakes and relocate somewhere cheaper. Why do you think manufacturing has been so heavily outsourced?

          Me, I have plenty of bargaining power all on my own. All it requires is the knowledge that you can get a job equally as good before you burn through your savings and a willingness to tell your employer to go fuck himself. If you lack either the skills or the savings for that, it's entirely because of your own foolishness.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by http on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:31AM (6 children)

            by http (1920) on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:31AM (#499752)

            Unions are tangential to the point I'm making, but you're only underlining my point: without ganging up, workers cannot even come close to applying pressure to an employer. When was the last time you heard about someone getting a job and having the company move to them, for example?

            --
            I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
            • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:17AM (2 children)

              by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:17AM (#499776)

              Do you even read the news? Or do you even read what you write before hitting post? Good grief.

              When was the last time you heard about someone getting a job and having the company move to them, for example?

              Happens every frickin' day. That is the root of the problem, really. Companies being forced to move the jobs to where the workers are. If you are a rich guy with a factory do you really think you WANT to go to the bother of packing the whole thing up and moving it elsewhere? Why do you think they do it? Because they can't afford workers with the required skills in the area where the factory currently is at. So they compare the all in price of moving workers in vs moving the factory and decide it easier and cheaper to move the factory to the labor. And there goes another few thousand jobs to Mexico, China, Indonesia or some other craphole.

              You complaint, and most everybody else here, seems to be you don't like the idea of competing with the whole world for your job. Yea it sucks but lets hear your alternative. The root of the problem is not the inequality within the U.S. or any of the 1st world countries, it is the vast gulf of inequality between the U.S. and the poorest 3rd world country with just enough political stability and infrastructure to allow it to compete for your job.

              No Trump probably can't fix this problem without making several worse ones.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:25AM

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:25AM (#499782)

                it is the vast gulf of inequality between the U.S. and the poorest 3rd world country with just enough political stability and infrastructure to allow it to compete for your job.

                Clearly, the solution is to let our infrastructure and political process rot, and then we'll be able to compete with them for jobs.

              • (Score: 2) by http on Thursday April 27 2017, @05:08AM

                by http (1920) on Thursday April 27 2017, @05:08AM (#500520)

                This is the perfect troll! Cogent, plausible to the naive, and 100% wrong. Kudos.

                Nopody in Mexico aspired to work for Ford/GM/whathaveyou, but when the plant moved there, hey, a crap job is better than no job.

                Companies being forced to move the jobs to where the workers are.

                You're kidding yourself. Companies choosing to move to where cheaper workers are available, in hopes of maintaining high ROI and gold plated executive payouts.

                --
                I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:48AM (2 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:48AM (#499801) Homepage Journal

              No, unions are the answer to your point. They need not even be localized. They could simply be all class-3 widget makers declaring that class-3 widgets will not be made for under $23/hr across the nation.

              Mind you, they're each and every one cannibalistic by nature and will end up destroying the jobs of those they propose to represent; but for a very short time they're actually useful.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:19PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:19PM (#500038)

                This site is a hotbed for corporate fascists such as yourself. You shouldn't be allowed to claim being a US citizen. But neither should 33% of the population who hate individual freedom and love freedom of profits.

                You're all SOOO DUMB. Tmb, jmorris, khallow and sometimes runaway. Promoting the horrors of yesterday.

                The WORST part? None of you are actually blithering idiots which makes it that much worse to see it wasted on trolling and shitty ideology.

                • (Score: 2) by http on Thursday April 27 2017, @05:11AM

                  by http (1920) on Thursday April 27 2017, @05:11AM (#500522)

                  EASE UP, there, a.c. They're welcome to their citizenship. I would fucking hate it if they moved away from the US and came here.

                  --
                  I browse at -1 when I have mod points. It's unsettling.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:10AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:10AM (#499737)

      If Bob isn't paying you as much as you want, quit working for him and work somewhere else. You might consider the possibility that your personality is getting in the way of getting paid well.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:52AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:52AM (#499765)

        Because there's such an abundance of jobs, it's easy to find a better one.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:57PM (5 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:57PM (#499623)

    I basically agree with you on the ownership thing. Commodities (like money) naturally accumulate at the top. Everything does. Seriously the top 1% of unix sysadmins do more admin work than the entire bottom 99% put together. Ditto software dev. Or fine art. Or cooking. Or singing. Or pro athletes. So let people who want to collect tokens collect ALL the tokens. You want to collect "all" the diamonds in minecraft? Have fun! No problemo!

    The problem is "we" are arguing two things at once and the other thing argued is how to make a living in a world still pretending that those useless tokens are somehow a currency in an economy thats really not functioning for most of us anymore.

    If for the sake of example we were on a space station, we'd need to procure our oxygen somehow, and as a 25% completed education chemical engineer I assume unless theres a better chemist on station (SN does have some excellent chemists that I know of) then I will own 100% of the productive capacity of oxygen. Naturally tokens always flow to the best owner; all of them. None of you will have any oxygen tokens. This would be mildly amusing if we were discussing the means of production of medium spicy taco sauce but unfortunately oxy is a required element for life so there will be much butthurt about my keeping it all. This is very interesting but it pragmatically does not work. Our system suxs.

    In the long run "we" pretty much have to have socialism for the minimum required for life. Which has nothing to do with who collected ALL the tokens and has a lot to do with everyone needs air, water, some place to sleep, food, defense dept, public roads, fire dept, public library, last but not least fully socialized medical care. Everything else can be wild barely regulated capitalism. Hands off my designers edition copy of Ogre. Keep the government out of my video game collection. etc.

    This is all at least semi consistent with my national socialist political belief system which is always universally supported by all SN readers especially the antifa. Socialism to keep the volk alive and part of the social contract is service in the nationalism half of proud capitalism and proud imperialism.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:00PM (1 child)

      So let people who want to collect tokens collect ALL the tokens. You want to collect "all" the diamonds in minecraft? Have fun! No problemo!

      Right there. That is your problem. You assume that wealth and earning is a zero-sum game. Nothing could be further from the truth. Wealth is created from the void every time a human being puts forth effort that either they or someone else desires, or makes the effort necessary to accomplish a desired task easier.

      If you have issue with how much wealth remains in your hands when you are implementing the ideas of someone else, bargain better. Hell, bargain collectively. Just make sure you don't cut your own throat while doing so. If labor is too pricy a commodity to continue doing business, they won't.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 2) by VLM on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:30PM

        by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday April 26 2017, @02:30PM (#500047)

        I think we agree on more than we disagree about, and your analysis skills are great, but we don't have a common language or set of definitions because here you go on a THIRD orthogonal topic, this being wealth as a social status signal and the attainment thereof as a lifestyle and all that.

        So my point of view is there's about three orthogonal topics and are getting incorrectly mixed leading to problems.

        1) There's the social contract thing. I'll be a member of your economic system and culture if you keep me alive better than the alternatives. Otherwise its armed rebellion, refugee time, join a motorcycle gang or commune and drop out time. Its hard to rally people around a system that involves their kids dying while another system lets them live. You can't collect anything cool this way like #2, what is the cool collection of "has great police protection" or "hasn't died of poor/no drinking water yet"? You probably can't get rich or cool off the same commodity as everyone gets see #3, nobody cares about my drinking water other than its there and doesn't make you sick.

        2) There's the ancient capitalist game of cornering a monopoly commodity market. Harmless if limited to non-basic living issues. Someone collects all the non-meaningful tokens? Good for them, completionism is a perfectly good compulsion. Got all the MtG cards? Cool! Seen all the pr0n on the internet? Cool!. I'm the go to guy at $employer for ETL and system integration I've cornered that market, Cool! Just don't corner the market for drinkable water like #1 or you get the guillotine as you very rightly should. And don't turn it into a rich guys playing field like #3 or people will be unhappy (real estate, collectible cars, maybe)

        3) Finally there's social status points, someone wealthy won't stay wealthy for long when playing game #2 if they're collecting black velvet Dale Earnhardt paintings or elvis memorobilia. Maybe it works well if they collect real estate and ETF shares. They won't be wealthy for long if their profit maximization strategy along the lines of #1 above involves killing the villagers children, because the villagers will put the wealthy dude in a guillotine right where he belongs. But if he got social status for good investments or being a really good rock star singer, well, cool!

        Its best for a culture and society and economic system to keep those three systems as separate as possible, more important even than separation of church and state. Virtually any cross mixture eventually ends up F-ed up. Needless to say almost anything functional about western civ in 2017 involves those being separate and most things Fed up involve mixtures.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by mhajicek on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:11PM (2 children)

      by mhajicek (51) on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:11PM (#499673)

      Survival is optional. In the old days it was even kind of a luxury. Now we've had a brief stint where, at least in the first world, most people could be pretty well guaranteed to earn a living (people are still starving to death in the third world). Going into the future however, we'll see a dramatic increase in the rolls of the unemployable, as the bar for employment rises. You are not entitled to a certain wage just for being there and putting in effort; you have to generate enough value to be profitable for your employer. Fail to generate enough value to cover your minimum wage plus overhead costs (or fail to out-compete automation) and you're out of a job.

      This will result in the majority of people being essentially pets, or zoo animals, if those above the bar deign to support them, and dead if not.

      So the discussion is really whether or not the productive should support the unproductive, and how many of them, and to what extent; there's obviously a limit.

      I hope Neuralink and the like make rapid progress; once memories and skills can be transferred like data and software it will be much easier for people to stay above the bar.

      All that said however, I think the worst thing for our economy is the financial "industry". People gathering (not making or earning) huge sums of money simply by moving paper around, being gatekeepers, and skimming off the top of everyone else's production, without generating a bit of value themselves. This include the insurance "industry" and a significant portion of government.

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @10:16AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 26 2017, @10:16AM (#499914)

        Given current trends and increasing automation, pretty soon that "generate enough value" term is going to be "the boss not getting his fucking head on a spike".
        Why do people think Trump, Brexit, and now France, happened? Racism? stupidity? insanity? - that's bullshit. People are pissed off. Really, really pissed off.
        The EIGHT richest people in the world own as much as the poorest THREE AND A HALF BILLION people. Do you think that is sustainable?
        And the trend is getting worse, a few years ago it was 65 people. Now down to eight.
        Do you think those eight got that much richer, or are the poor getting poorer?
        The ruling class can wake up and smell the coffee, or pretty soon it's going to be wake up and smell the smoke.

        • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Wednesday April 26 2017, @07:55PM

          by mhajicek (51) on Wednesday April 26 2017, @07:55PM (#500310)

          The ruling class are fully aware of that, and that's why they're tracking our every communication. You start rallying people for a revolution and you'll find a drone deployed munition in your lap.

          --
          The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek