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The Liberal premier of Ontario announced details of the Ontario Basic Income Pilot. The provincial government issued a press release saying
Three regions will take part in the study. Pilots will start in late spring in Hamilton, including Brantford and Brant County; and in Thunder Bay and the surrounding area. The third pilot will start by this fall [autumn] in Lindsay.
The Basic Income model Ontario has developed will ensure that eligible participants receive:
Up to $16,989 per year for a single person, less 50 per cent of any earned income
Up to $24,027 per year for a couple, less 50 per cent of any earned income
Up to an additional $6,000 per year for a person with a disability.
[...] The three test regions will host 4,000 participants eligible to receive a basic income payment, between the ages of 18 to 64. By late spring, people in these areas will begin receiving information about the pilot and how to participate. The province is partnering with these communities and other experts to make sure that the Ontario Basic Income Pilot is fair, effective, and scientifically valid.
additional coverage:
- Canoe (editorial)
- The Globe and Mail
- globalnews.ca
- The Guardian
- Business Insider
- BBC News
- Canadian Press via City News
- Reuters via NASDAQ
- Toronto Star
- CHCH-TV
- CBC
- CNN Money
related story:
Ontario is Starting a Universal Basic Income Pilot
(Score: 5, Insightful) by melikamp on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:21PM (12 children)
I think basic income is the way to go. Living wages sound great until there's no more practically necessary work, and thanks to robots and just general efficiency gains, we are getting there. I mean, we are getting into semantics here. If all the practically useful jobs (resulting in feeding, clothing, healthcare, etc.) can be done by, say, 10% of the population, what does that leave the rest with? If you want them to get living wage, you gotta give some bullshit jobs. Basic income is essentially a living wage for a bullshit job you make up for yourself, and as such it's better than some job description imposed by the government. Let the people figure out whether they want to spend their free time and money on getting more education & training, making art, participating in politics, or taking care of the family.
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:29PM (1 child)
And asteroid prospecting and robot repair, just like the GNU communist manifesto says.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:37PM
Where's my Jetsons flying car and condo on stilts??
(Score: 2) by edIII on Tuesday April 25 2017, @09:46PM (5 children)
That's bullshit though. We are nowhere near the point where robotics can take over to feed us, clothe us, and build and provide maintenance for our shelters and infrastructure. Your point is valid for a future that is decades away, if not more.
Don't know about Canada, but in the U.S our infrastructure is starting to fail spectacularly. Our engineers give us a D- grade, IIRC. There is an incredible amount of work that needs to be done.
I disagree. There are still plenty of jobs left, what you don't see is how many of those jobs have been outsourced to other countries, or taking care of by illegal immigrant labor.
Any jobs that are left must become LIVING WAGES.
Also, in this future of yours, do we still have billionaires? If so, why? If BI eventually comes around then that means we are equal comrade. Except, for the special classes of people that were lucky enough to have parents that stole enough to become the magical dynasty families that live like royalty around the BI class of poor people. When you have BI, there is no reason to succeed, no drive to improve yourself, and no reason to try to reach for the stars.
The stars are already filled with the rich dynasties. Your place will be on the ground with BI hopefully providing enough for you to live, while they live like emperors. Even though, they don't actually do anything either. I'm reminded of Eddie Murphy, "But, what have you done for me lately?"
It is not a stepping stone to the Federation, my friend.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:14PM
in the U.S our infrastructure is starting to fail spectacularly. Our engineers give us a D- grade, IIRC. There is an incredible amount of work that needs to be done.
So pay workers to build infrastructure. Government did it last century by taxing the rich and employing the poor. This century why doesn't Elon Musk do it? Conventional roads are too mundane for him? Not hyperloopy enough? Elon Musk just another greedy egotistical psychopath who only cares about himself?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:29PM
Them: Robots are going to take our jobs, what can we do?
Them: Let's see if BI works!
You: FUCK YOU, I WANT MORE MONEY! I FUCKING *DESERVE* MORE!
Everyone else: Can't wait to see the results.
Bob: Customers have been complaining about your potty-mouth. You're fired.
You (after failing to find a job you think you deserve): Damn, fucking I wish I had me some fucking BI.
(Score: 4, Informative) by mhajicek on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:27PM
In 1790, about 90% of workers were employed in agriculture. Now it's about 1.5%. Robots are doing most of the agricultural work with guidance from a handful of agricultural technicians. The same trends are happening in other industries too, just a bit slower / later.
Example: I'm a machinist. I sit at my desk all day and prepare programs for the machine to run. With one machine (robot) and one human assistant I get done in a day what would have taken weeks a few decades ago. That's with a fairly entry-level 5 axis CNC. If I wanted to quadruple my output and had the funding to do so, I could either buy three more of the same machine and hope I can find three more skilled assistants (unlikely), or I could put all the money into one high-end machine with a pallet pool and large tool index and run it with just me and my assistant, and it would be capable of running unattended for days at a time. The latter option would be much more reliable, and by far the better business decision.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by melikamp on Thursday April 27 2017, @04:52PM (1 child)
I don't know, mon. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_productivity_and_real_wages.jpg [wikipedia.org]
The productivity been going up for centuries, and now it's outright spiking. The reason many people don't notice it is in the same chart: all the gains been going to the ultra-rich. We can definitely afford basic income at this point, so there is a straightforward utilitarian argument for instituting it. All the arguments against it, on the other hand, are based on the almost-religious attachment to the a caricature of a "free" labor market: no one will work unless out of fear of starvation; and the outright religious (puritan, to be precise) idea that not working is sinful. Never you mind that the ultra-rich just wank themselves all day, while the rest of us are polishing their golden urinals for the hourly wage.
Once we give people a decent basic income, they can and almost certainly will use it to dedicate their life to the most fun activities available: (1) fine art (2) fundamental science (4) politics (3) community service, which sounds boring until you realize it's the same as meddling. Today people sit on the couch chasing a pink dragon because they are marginalized, desperate, and see no way to succeed in the brutal capitalist economy plagued by racism, sexism, and all kinds of discrimination. Give them the true leisure, and sure, some of them will stay on the couch and kill themselves, but most will move on to doing fun and useful things, simply because they will be much happier that way.
(Score: 2) by edIII on Thursday April 27 2017, @06:31PM
I'm not doing it. There is no fucking way I'm going to accept being paid off so those fucking avaricious cocksuckers can live like emperors off us. NO. NO. NO. NO!
If we work at all, we need to enjoy the benefits of our production. Otherwise, it's fucking slavery. When you need to spend over 100% of your daily production just to find shelter, for no other reason than the avarice of the property owners, the 1% has lost its soul and deserves to die.
Why would you ever agree to a world where they are propped up? What's to stop them from stopping BI at some point because they don't like it, and we forever gave them all of the control?
It's not like we are self-sufficient anymore, or possess any kind of a work ethic whatsoever. We will be fat lazy entitled cattle screaming for more BI because we can't properly assign value to anything anymore. Nobody works, so how could anyone understand work ethics and similar values.
I could only agree if there didn't exist a rich Owning Class anymore. If they divest themselves of all of those luxuries at the same time, then I'm onboard.
Otherwise, I'll fucking kill as many as I can, as that will be the only path of upward mobility. How do I in this world of no work ethics reach the stars like ol' Elon huh?
BI is a form of slavery and intentional life sabotage. I'm sure you honestly believe that people would better off, but they are not.
I agree that is bullshit. The Owning Classes created the fear-of-starvation method to actively cultivate pools of desperate workers. We have another option though, and will always did. Massive National Strikes and we stand up and DEMAND our lives back. When you are paid a living wage, and are responsible, you will eventually find yourself on very solid ground. What do I mean by that?
You own your own house. You own all of your stuff, not rent. You have a nice veggie garden in the back. You have a permanent benefits life insurance policy growing. You have investments and/or growing assets to aid you when YOU decide that you can no longer work and retire. You have a strong foundation upon which to negotiate work offers... because if they don't give you what you need to survive.. you smile and walk away.
The problem with that is people that need to be subsidized are such a large group the employer can smile too and then just pull from the desperate pool for less and you lose. Therein lies the answer. We need to finally stand up as a people and demand our lives back, self-sufficiency, and a free labor market in which we are equal with the employer and not under extreme and utter duress. We need to not accept the existence of such a large group of hungry and desperate people, AKA, The Scabs. I don't want to beat the shit out of a Scab, but lift them up with us so the Owning Classes can no longer prey upon them.
By the way, not working is sinful. The Puritans had something there. If you look deeper into that wisdom and ponder it for awhile, you may take away what I did. Those ultra-rich wanking themselves off each day? They are going to hell. Nice grand hyperbolic statement, but what do I mean by that? They are unable to assess the value of anything because it is freely given to them, or they are outright manipulating people and stealing from them. None of that is morally acceptable. Entitlement will creep up on us, just as it does with the ultra-rich. They are actually convinced their way is correct, moral, and good, which is completely delusional.
The value of a work ethic lies in not giving in to egotistical desires every other fucking second, but actively working towards a common goal with others to achieve greatness and serve your fellow man. In doing so you will become Godly, or doing God's work. Which sounds very religious and doctrinal, but all I mean is that you cultivate a spirit of love and unity within yourself while being dedicated to making the lives of your fellow man better. I'm not ultra religious or anything, but I understand what they are saying about not serving your own ego and desires, but to serve others instead. You will never find that in a BI world. We would become as abhorrent as the Owning Classes, just with far less luxuries on the ground while they enjoy Elysium in the skys.
100000% disagree here. They will become entitled little shits watching the Owning Classes with awe on their free Internet talk about their latest botox or $10,000,000 tchotchke that got stolen from them. Sorry, dude. I said it before. BI is not a stepping stone to the Federation which is what you just promulgated. I love you for it, I greatly appreciate your heart, but it does not represent reality. Even in the Federation people are working, not just sitting around. To get there, we will need a revolution of spirit, and I think that begins with good ol' fashioned *hard work*, dedication, and a strong moral center that includes the idea of service to your fellow man.
People need to work. The most I can agree to is a Socialist foundation to never let them fall down, or turn into Scabs, and have a foundation upon which to succeed. It protects the rest of us from them being used against us by the Owning Classes, which is exactly what we need. A sincerely equal environment free of duress to negotiate work offers. It is not in our best interests to accept homelessness and poverty around us.
The only compromise I can see is that BI starts off at a VERY low level. Only the most basic housing, slowest Internet connections designed just to deal with errands and work and low end entertainment (720p max). Not nearly enough to afford the luxuries like a PS4 and 8K screens (or equivalent). Subsidized food, but also giving them a small patch of land in front of their literal fucking hut, and teaching them how to grow *something*.
There must be some incentive to reach for the stars. Giving them a small 10x10 room to live in with only the most basic necessities would surely motivate them to go the free market labor pool and negotiate for some work. That way they can get better housing, afford the PS4, afford a restaurant, afford travel, etc. At the same time, anybody that decides to put themselves on a life journey as an ascetic is permanently subsidized :)
Not working is a sin, and I don't mean that in the religious sense. It's not healthy. I want to work and don't need BI. I just need a living wage. That's all.
Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday April 25 2017, @10:49PM (3 children)
Living wages sound great until there's no more practically necessary work, and thanks to robots and just general efficiency gains, we are getting there.
The problem here is that narrative runs counter to how the world actually works. Instead, we're seeing more employment of people than ever. For the past few centuries and up to the present date, automation has created more and better quality jobs than it has destroyed.
(Score: 2) by mhajicek on Tuesday April 25 2017, @11:38PM (2 children)
False. Labor force participation rate peeked at 67.30% in January of 2000, and since has dropped to 63%. It hasn't been this low since '77.
The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
(Score: 2) by fnj on Wednesday April 26 2017, @04:53AM
Did it "peek" from behind the bushes?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday April 26 2017, @01:46PM
False. Labor force participation rate peeked at 67.30% in January of 2000, and since has dropped to 63%. It hasn't been this low since '77.
You're referring to planet US. On planet Earth, it's still increasing. You should ask what the US is doing that lowers its labor force participation rate. There's a lot of policies including retirement, jails, education, etc that remove people out of the labor pool.
In addition, the US has gone through considerable effort to make employing people costly. It should come to no surprise that when someone makes something more expensive, less of it is consumed.
While the developing world has many of these problems as well, it still remains that labor force participation is growing worldwide. China and India in particular have greatly improved their employment situation. Each country has roughly the same population as the entire current developed world.