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posted by martyb on Sunday April 30 2017, @03:07PM   Printer-friendly
from the we-can-find-no-longer-find-data-against-our-plans dept.

You were warned. Now it begins: The Chicago Tribune reports that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is working on changes to its Web properties:

The EPA's extensive climate change website now redirects to a page that says "this page is being updated" and that "we are currently updating our website to reflect EPA's priorities under the leadership of President Trump and Administrator Pruitt." It also links to a full archive of how the page used to look on Jan. 19, before Trump's inauguration.


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  • (Score: 0, Offtopic) by VLM on Sunday April 30 2017, @03:57PM (11 children)

    by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 30 2017, @03:57PM (#501883)

    With a side dish of Trump Derangement Syndrome where some dude runs "apt-get upgrade" then the antifa claim that phrase is voodoo chanted during child sacrifices at comet pizza, oh wait the other guy won, I mean they claim its paternalistic and misogynistic because "apt-get" is one of the 47 new genders and its wrong to imply someone should be forced to upgrade their sexual identity so we need new bathrooms for everyone, especially the guy who sexually identifies as an apache attack helicopter, oh god slippery hydraulic oil everywhere.

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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by JoeMerchant on Sunday April 30 2017, @04:06PM (10 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Sunday April 30 2017, @04:06PM (#501888)

    We get the government we deserve (we, the country - not we, your like-minded friends and acquaintances).

    Did you ever give up trying to convince your idiot acquaintances in school that their views and priorities were short-sighted, self-destructive, and very bad for other people around them? Yeah, me too. This is on us.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by piss_drinker on Sunday April 30 2017, @07:28PM (5 children)

      by piss_drinker (6536) on Sunday April 30 2017, @07:28PM (#501958)

      It doesn't take much to have a label like "Fringe Thinker" stamped on your forehead. Then anything you say, that others don't feel comfortable with, can be easily put aside. You don't even have to carry unpopular opinions. All it takes is to question opinions that others view as self evident. I don't have to say that the moon is made of cheese. But if I confess that I can't prove that it isn't made out cheese, which is the truth, I am just as bad.

      Many seem pretty taken with the, "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" phrase. But as soon as you stand for something, so you're not caught looking like you could fall for anything, you have pretty much just fallen for anything. Standing for something without sufficient data is simultaneously the accusation and productive aim of the phrase.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @07:49PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @07:49PM (#501966)

        All it takes is to question opinions that others view as self evident.

        You are right. There is one group, widely represented here and elsewhere online, who seem absolutely determined to question that all men are created equal and that the role of government is to effect their Safety and Happiness.

        • (Score: 1) by piss_drinker on Monday May 01 2017, @03:16PM

          by piss_drinker (6536) on Monday May 01 2017, @03:16PM (#502293)

          [QUOTE]widely represented here[/QUOTE]

          This place actually rocks. I enjoy /. but even the trolls here are more entertaining. It really shocked me to find that I could make posts without JS enables. Love that! Glad to hear that the site moved to Gentoo. I would have thought NetBSD, Slackware, or even Devaun as cool too. If I had the time, I'd see if I could dev some integration for reading and posting via a telnet/ssh BBS like connection. SDF seems like one of the last providers for that. But it has no web access for the console illiterate.

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @08:48PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @08:48PM (#501991)

        The problem is when what is "self-evident" is stuff that has no empirical evidence. Empirical evidence should be the very definition of self-evident.

        Trickle down economics
        Invisible hand solutions
        Pull self up by bootstraps approach to welfare/healthcare
        Temperatures not increasing due to CO2
        More guns don't result in more unnecessary deaths

        The only thing self-evident about these is that they lead to certain rich people getting more money.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @11:41PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @11:41PM (#502049)

          Complex models man, complex models that show man is irrevocably responsible for the end of days. It is done by scientists with conclusions drawn subjectively by scientists, so it is science.

          I have a weird mad hat conspiracy theory that all these are done by creationists and religious nut cakes to discredit science. After all the best way to beat something is to join in and discredit it from within while having the perfect cover to push your agendas. Just like the mafia/mob's approach to beat the police is to join their ranks

        • (Score: 1) by piss_drinker on Monday May 01 2017, @05:07PM

          by piss_drinker (6536) on Monday May 01 2017, @05:07PM (#502359)
          I felt inspired today, so don't blame yourself for this reply. Feel free to flame it and laugh :)

          The problem is when what is "self-evident" is stuff that has no empirical evidence. Empirical evidence should be the very definition of self-evident.

          That is the beginning of a long conversation. But I agree that it is a problem. The issue with theory (logic) is that it hardly ever comes in a distilled package. But empirical evidence is always examined with logic. Not all logic is equal. So it seems that supposing our own logic as empirical might be the problem. But thats more of a problem for you and me. Fortunately we often realize that it can be a problem, which is why we are so good at pointing it out in others. A really interesting problem is not even questioning whats empirical, with whatever logic one does have. Just basing rational on emotions that hang from a sleeve and the pattern of thought that places you in a comfortable social group. Which is almost a contradiction since no one in the groups are actually open or social. They are just repeaters of clique validation to continually build the pleasant foundations fantasy cohesion. Thats why its the American "Dream". The real thing requires too much personal responsibility on the part of ever single moving body. And the very thought that this could happen causes the masters of illusion to break into a sweat of terror. Thats why we call it terrorism. So they pour on the ever relieving elixirs of opinions, well designed and orchestrated toward pride and conflict. Then the people sleep well at night (and during the day) again, enjoying freedom and liberty from self governing. We don't have to think it out. We are smart enough to agree with leaders that have nothing but the patriotism of governing us in mind. We may get the government that we deserve. But history seems to show that when the people start deserving something other than what they've been programmed for; its often something like the "Red Scare" so that the bad code can be weeded back out again. But then again thats what government is. They are not ever going to allow us voting it out as a whole. But if we all did self govern, our limited perspective of species management might have us preventing things like cancer and war. People might start living well into their 80's, across the board. Which is fine, except that we all have different ideas about what fair division of resources is; against what might be a enormous population of personal governments. Without our culturally designed distractions, me might become efficient managers of our time and self development. All of our social pleasantries may fall through the cracks. We might start stoning people, in the center of town, for being too lazy or reckless. If one of your children gets out of line, you better stone it to death to assure everyone that you aren't going to be a problem. We would at least know that we were the masters of our own destiny. At least until the dirt takes us. Which is about the time some of us realize we were being masterfully governed all along. Governed by some force that nurtures the minds/natures of life to reach for control, like a plant leaning towards the sunlight. Be it nuclear devastation, genocide, or the labor of birth; every degree of societal station witness to the empirical evidence that nature governs everything within in it, by varying mixtures of attraction and repulsion. The division between the two actions a complete illusion. As each attraction is a repulse from, and each repulsions is an attract towards. So no matter if the observation is within the illusion or unified without it, the law is irrevocably fair. This since each return is always a whole with each investment. The two were always one thing. Being forcefully naive about the unseen investments and returns that are responsible for each persons available investments, and the paired returns, is no excuses deserving of grace. But I don't mind owning it, with a crooked smile on my face and a twinkle in my eye. Behind every joke posing as a responsible system, is a truth that is just as funny. I don't mind taking a real sincere go at it. I never really had anything to lose. Failure and success were both daydreams. But thats a different kind of freedom altogether. One that everything alive was born with, and every con must veil. I could go on like this forever. Fortunately for everyone else, I don't. Today.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @08:28PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @08:28PM (#501981)

      We get the government we deserve (we, the country - not we, your like-minded friends and acquaintances).

      That's a vacuous claim.
      It presumes that all people have equal access to the levers of democracy.
      And that's demonstrably not true. We don't live in a country that follows the principle of one-man, one-vote.
      Not to mention that voting itself is much more feasible for people of means.
      So, as a description of the collective will of the people, your statement is just plain false.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday April 30 2017, @09:05PM (2 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday April 30 2017, @09:05PM (#501999) Journal

      Did you ever give up trying to convince your idiot acquaintances in school that their views and priorities were short-sighted, self-destructive, and very bad for other people around them?

      Yes, because I grew up and realized that was hypocritical delusion. Sanctimonious virtue signaling is a paltry replacement for a good argument and some patience can sway more people than you can be bothered to care about. Let us keep in mind that the EPA is one of the many blocks in the wall that created the Trump administration.

      There are glaring abuses of the EPA's power, such as Sackett v. EPA [ballotpedia.org] where a couple was fined almost $75k per day for filling in alleged wetlands on a 0.6 acre lot or a quarter of a hectare with the EPA claiming that the couple couldn't appeal the fines and the EPA's ruling in court until they had paid those fines. The EPA has a variety of abusive and sometimes unconstitutional powers like the regulations on wetlands (a very expansive power since any poorly drained land is technically wetlands), Superfund, and vague laws on what is considered pollution (leading to their now reversed declaration that CO2 was a pollutant).

      And what exactly is short sighted and self destructive about not being interested in more orders of magnitude reduction in pollution thresholds for already stringent pollution standards or one of the more significant creators of bureaucracy and stultifying regulation in the US (last I heard the EPA has contributed 10-20% of the pages of US law and regulation)? A lot of what the EPA does is just not that valuable for what the EPA costs - not just in direct budget but also in limiting US society.

      • (Score: 5, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @10:40PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday April 30 2017, @10:40PM (#502028)

        Here's how to determine the difference between virtue signalling and good argument: does khallow agree with it? If so, it's good argument. If not, it's virtue signalling.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday May 01 2017, @04:52PM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday May 01 2017, @04:52PM (#502349) Journal

          Here's how to determine the difference between virtue signalling and good argument: does khallow agree with it?

          Sorry, there's a lot of stuff I don't disagree with that isn't virtue signalling. You'll just have to come up with a better test. Although it is remarkable how many people with bad arguments (such as yourself here), I happen to disagree with.

          One doesn't go to school because one knows too much. Let's look again at the virtue signalling I quoted:

          Did you ever give up trying to convince your idiot acquaintances in school that their views and priorities were short-sighted, self-destructive, and very bad for other people around them?

          Note the blanket characterization of everyone he knew as "idiot acquaintances". The genius swimming alone in a sea of fools is a traditional bit of virtue signalling going back to Plato's cave and using a lantern to search for wise men. And he casts blame only on others. They couldn't recognize the alleged wisdom of JoeMerchant's words, according to his comfortable narrative.

          And what exactly is the smart thing to do about the US's situation that is so obvious that only "idiot acquaintances" can miss it?