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posted by on Thursday May 04 2017, @10:51AM   Printer-friendly
from the QfvLcozLwtE dept.

Submitted via IRC for Runaway1956

Guns are not a part of the culture of my homeland, except perhaps for the occasional Bollywood movie in which the bad guy meets his demise staring down the wrong end of a barrel.

My childhood in India was steeped in ahimsa, the tenet of nonviolence toward all living things.

The Indians may have succeeded in ousting the British, but we won with Gandhian-style civil disobedience, not a revolutionary war.

I grew up not knowing a single gun owner, and even today India has one of the strictest gun laws on the planet. Few Indians buy and keep firearms at home, and gun violence is nowhere near the problem it is in the United States. An American is 12 times more likely than an Indian to be killed by a firearm, according to a recent study.

It's no wonder then that every time I visit India, my friends and family want to know more about America's "love affair" with guns.

I get the same questions when I visit my brother in Canada or on my business travels to other countries, where many people remain perplexed, maybe even downright mystified, by Americans' defense of gun rights.

I admit I do not fully understand it myself, despite having become an American citizen nearly a decade ago. So when I learn the National Rifle Association is holding its annual convention here in Atlanta, right next to the CNN Center, I decide to go and find out more.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/28/world/indian-immigrant-nra-convention/index.html


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  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by art guerrilla on Thursday May 04 2017, @12:33PM (26 children)

    by art guerrilla (3082) on Thursday May 04 2017, @12:33PM (#504284)

    oh, i wanted to add one other point to her generic comment often heard from ANTI-gun people along the lines of 'i just don't understand people's fascination with guns/weapons...'
    i don't think they say this because they are neutral about guns/weapons, i don't think they say this because they genuinely don't understand people's motivation; i think they say this SIMPLY because it puts them on the 'right' side of this issue (so they think)... in short, i believe a person saying this is disingenuous out of the gate...
    .
    it is EASY to comprehend why some/many people in general, men in particular, and young men most especially are 'fascinated' by guns/weapons: our EXISTENCE TO THIS POINT IN HIS STORY AS A STUPID SPECIES WAS 100% DEPENDENT upon knowing weapons and how to use them... (one might argue that we are STILL so motivated in the context of the military, given the nature of the world...) EVERYONE is fascinated by technology, the denizens of soylent especially so; knives, swords, pistols, rifles, shotguns, cannons, bombs, fighter jets, etc, etc, etc, are all WAY COOL technology, REGARDLESS of their ultimate use/purpose... they are inherently interesting machines...
    .
    further, MUCH (most?) of the advances in ALL our technology throughout his story which gives these wimpy eloi the shiny Icrap they love so obsessively, was/is predicated on R&D for military/weapons, NOT from doodling peace signs in a lab notebook over and over...
    go ahead, make a drum circle, weave dandelions in your hair, sing kumbaya (sp?), and om your chakra till the sacred cows come home ; you will be digging a hole with a stick for your next shit, if that is the cauldron of techno-innovation you are dependent upon...

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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @12:42PM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @12:42PM (#504287)

    oh, i wanted to add one other point to her generic comment often heard from ANTI-gun people along the lines of 'i just don't understand people's fascination with guns/weapons...'

    If there is one trend that I've noticed among these sort of people is that they often have been lucky enough to never had to defend themselves against another violent person who was much stronger than themselves. Many change their mind amazingly quick and arm themselves after a single assault.

    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday May 04 2017, @04:08PM (4 children)

      by bzipitidoo (4388) on Thursday May 04 2017, @04:08PM (#504367) Journal

      The sort of "violence" I've experienced is just not solvable with a gun. Yes, if you near a wilderness and need means to protect yourself from wild animals, then a gun (a rifle, not a pistol) can be a good idea. Animals aren't stupid, and the rest will get the idea after a few of them are shot. A refresher every once in a while maintains their education.

      As for violence from your fellow humans, that's a lot harder to handle. Physical violence is just one avenue. The punk kid who runs around snatching purses, or tries to mug people, isn't going to last. I'm not counting on someone gunning him down, I'm counting on everyone and everything eventually catching up with him. He keeps doing it, and he will be recognized, his home will be found, and he will be caught.

      I'm talking about government tyranny in the form of an unfair fine, and threats, bullying, and propaganda. The whole red light camera racket, what can you do about it when a local government mistimes a light and fines people $75 for missing it by a fraction of a second? Taking your gun to the next meeting of the city council and opening fire is so obviously a really bad idea on many different levels. Not least, it's severely disproportionate. How about school, in which a teacher takes a personal dislike to you or your kid, though you did nothing whatsoever to them, and hands out an F that is not justified? Quite a few teachers hate and envy smart kids, and will try to punish them for it, find any excuse no matter how stupid, to flunk them. Happened to me all too often, from grade school through college.

      Then there are those who try to scare you with the idea that the government is on their side, when it isn't. Like, those big, scary law enforcement badges Hollywood puts at the start of just about every DVD, and debt collectors who tell you they're going to send the police to arrest you if you don't pay up. There, the brains to recognize an empty threat is a whole lot more useful than a gun. I've had businesses try to tell me bull that the rules say I have to pay them money, or that some fee for some extra is customary and necessary, the "everyone does it" argument, when it isn't. The parking meter ticket is another one you can often blow off, though that one is trickier, depends on whether those with an interest have succeeded in bribing government to put some teeth in enforcement. A guy who ran a pr0n store told that the police were always hauling his clerks off to jail on bogus, trumped up charges. They were usually released with no charges a few hours later.

      Where in all that is there a use for a gun? The pr0n store manager was going to ask his clerks to resist arrest, fire warning shots at the police to tell them not to try it? Of course not. Or, later, was he going to hire a small private army and storm the police station to free his clerks at gunpoint? No way. Maybe he could go after the politicians who directed the police to crack down on pr0n? Also no good. They do it to score points with the social conservatives, and do it in the weeks before an election. So, shoot all the social conservatives? Ridiculous. Setting aside the immorality of the idea, no one could shoot more than a tiny fraction of them before being overwhelmed. Once the election is over, the harassment is quietly discontinued.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @12:01AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @12:01AM (#504597)

        In these cases a gun won't help you. Violence as an individual doesn't solve every problem.

        Where it will help is the rapist, the crazy stalker, a guy hellbent on killing you. In rarer cases, government agents that want you dead, etc. None of that is every day shit for everyone but unfortunately it does happen. The unarmed end up on the news or in the stats. Even a level playing field doesn't guarantee outcome.

        So you know, shoot to have fun and enjoy it. Its what 99% of guns are used for. Everything isn't life or death 100% of the time. You don't NEED free speech, your own car, the ability to run apps outside the Microsoft Store, electricity or pretty much anything besides food, water and shelter but I'll be damned if those other things aren't nice to have. It really sucks when some judgmental prick tries to take them away from you.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:06AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:06AM (#504687)

        The whole red light camera racket, what can you do about it when a local government mistimes a light and fines people $75 for missing it by a fraction of a second? Taking your gun to the next meeting of the city council and opening fire is so obviously a really bad idea on many different levels. Not least, it's severely disproportionate.

        Without endorsing any course of action, let's analyze your claim.

        Local government sets up red light camera and mis-timed traffic light.
        You "get caught" by red light camera.
        Local government computers send you a bill for a fine, which you justly refuse to pay.
        Local government bureaucrats revoke your driver's license, but as you don't need their permission to travel without harming anyone, you continue to go about your business.
        Local government enforcer forces you to the side of the road when his ALPR gear reports you as driving without permission. Assume you escape unscathed for the moment.
        Local government thug in a black dress issues a kidnap order in your name for refusal to comply.
        Local government enforcer forces you to the side of the road when his ALPR gear tells him to kidnap you.
        You, refusing to submit to criminal demands, die at some point in the resulting fight.

        How is this situation any different in principle than:

        You are killed while defending yourself against a mugging.

        Assuming an unquestioned right to the defense of your own life (regardless of success), you are the victim in both effectively identical scenarios. As the victim, any deaths of your attackers are on the heads of the attackers.

        • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Friday May 05 2017, @07:10AM (1 child)

          by bzipitidoo (4388) on Friday May 05 2017, @07:10AM (#504717) Journal

          > Local government bureaucrats revoke your driver's license

          That's the sticking point. They don't have the authority to do that. In fact, they have to wiggle a lot to slide the red light camera tickets past the law. Like there's the right to be confronted by your accuser. There's also the problem of identifying the driver. They hit the owner for the fine, never mind who was actually driving. So in Texas, the ticket doesn't count as a moving violation, it is only a violation of a city ordinance. It does not go on your driving record and it is not cause for auto insurers to raise your rates or for you to lose your driver's license. If you refuse to pay, they can report it as an unpaid debt, that's all. They usually bluster, hinting that you will be in Big Trouble if you don't pay. They can't cut off your water either.

          What happened in the city where I live was a petition against red light cameras was put on the ballot and won by 70%. The incumbent mayor supported the cameras and he lost to a challenger who opposed them. The private company who ran the cameras sued to try to keep the measure off the ballot. They lost their lawsuit. They then tried their stock propaganda about red light cameras making driving safer. Didn't work.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:34AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:34AM (#504721)

            They don't have the authority to do that.

            You are correct, but you're intentionally avoiding the foundational point.

            Maybe not in Texas, maybe not in the present, and maybe not only with red light camera tickets, but government agents which do exceed their delegated authority and assault you are literally criminals, and if one of their victims successfully kills some criminal attackers, the victim is justified.

            If people don't like the idea of criminals getting killed, then the age-old advice applies: stop acting criminally!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:45PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:45PM (#504428)

      > If there is one trend that I've noticed among these sort of people is that they often have been lucky enough to never had to defend themselves against another violent person who was much stronger than themselves. Many change their mind amazingly quick and arm themselves after a single assault.

      Citation needed.
      Can't say that I've met anyone that fits your premise. What I've seen are people that grew up with guns and feel the need to have one or more (often from a rural/farming background), and many (most) others that grew up without guns around the house and don't feel any need.

      In my case, I shot a .22 at a summer camp a few times, didn't find it all that exciting. Went back to playing with other potentially dangerous machines like motorcycles and cars...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:10AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:10AM (#504689)

        The yuuuge difference you overlook is that People of the Gun are not trying to force you to use a gun, nor are they trying to steal your motorcycle or car.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:52PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @05:52PM (#504434)

      You mean, they turn into cowards who think they need an EDC? Sorry you were bullied, bro!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:11AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:11AM (#504742)

        So you want to disarm victims, I see...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @12:18AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @12:18AM (#504609)

      yeah, or they have paid security that does the dirty work of having guns for them.

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday May 04 2017, @01:43PM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 04 2017, @01:43PM (#504311) Journal

    "'i just don't understand people's fascination with . . ."

    You may have the correct take on that phrase. Then again, there are things that I don't really get. I love motorcycles, for instance. I want a machine that at least qualifies as a 'cafe racer'. If a bike won't cruise at 100 mph, it's just not "good enough" for me. That makes it fairly obvious that I want a road legal bike, powerful, comfortable, something like a cruiser. I just don't understand these guys who feel the need to climb hillsides, just to get to the top. I don't understand those who do the mountain bike thing. That stuff just doesn't look like fun. I gotta respect all those characters who ride all the other kinds of bikes. Hey, we're all "up on two", we're almost like brothers, sorta, kinda. But, I'm just not going to bike the way they bike. Give me a few hundred miles of open road, and I'm happy. Dirt road, blacktop, concrete, a super slab, it's all the same. But, I want a ROAD of some sort!!

    So, maybe, in this one case, you don't have quite the correct spin on the lady's statement. Maybe, she just doesn't understand, the same way I don't understand some of those crazy bastards who do weird shit on motorcycles.

    At any rate, I was somewhat fascinated by Moni's article. Without being judgemental, she gave us a view into her mind. She seems to have given the whole thing a fair examination. Hell, let her experience percolate for awhile, and she may become an NRA spokesman sometime in the future. Or not.

  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 04 2017, @03:21PM (13 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 04 2017, @03:21PM (#504352) Journal
    I strongly disagree. While I think it wouldn't be that hard for them to understand others, it's cognitive dysfunction from their beliefs that keep them from understanding others. I see it all the time on SN. People will post their surprise, sincerely, that I can reason and use logic. But the difference was that I wasn't disagreeing with them on that subject. Sorry, it's the same person, folks. I didn't suddenly become irrational just because I disagreed with you on something.

    A classic example of disagreement is the climate change debate. I'm strongly against strong global warming mitigation for a variety of reasons. But it is interesting how people repeatedly assume that means I don't believe in anthropogenic global warming at all. They can't even perceive that there's huge differences in opinion among the opposition and thus, don't have a clue about the basis for disagreement. I guess that's what happens when someone stumbles out of their echo chamber and runs into someone with a different opinion. All they've seen to this point are straw men.
    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday May 04 2017, @06:04PM (12 children)

      by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday May 04 2017, @06:04PM (#504448) Journal

      While I think it wouldn't be that hard for them to understand others, it's cognitive dysfunction from their beliefs that keep them from understanding others.

      Many of us do understand the ammosexuals! There has been a nasty sea-change amoungst the gun owners of the United States, most pointedly in the right-wing Republican take over of the NRA. We despise and worry about these crazies precisely because we understand just how crazy they are.

      I see it all the time on SN.

      You don't say, khallow! Who do you think is the most egregious case of this?

      People will post their surprise, sincerely, that I can reason and use logic.

      When did this happen, exactly? I am surprised you would say this! Just because you think you are reasonably using logic does not entail that you actually are.

      But the difference was that I wasn't disagreeing with them on that subject. Sorry, it's the same person, folks. I didn't suddenly become irrational just because I disagreed with you on something.

      True, that. You are irrational all the time! You are unable to recognize your fundamental assumptions, let alone critically evaluate them. So the obvious rebuttal, my dear khallow, is that yes, you are always irrational.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by HiThere on Thursday May 04 2017, @06:18PM (7 children)

        by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 04 2017, @06:18PM (#504456) Journal

        Sorry about this, but while your post is technically correct ... please note that ALL people are ALWAYS irrational, EXCEPT when they pay careful attention to logical steps...and often even then.

        There are good reasons for this. Logic is slow, and takes a long time to work through, so people normally work on pattern matching, and from initial positions chosen in a non-logical manner...basically based on what you were exposed to when young.

        THIS means that lots of different people will have different conclusions than you do when presented with the same evidence in any complex situation. And the conclusions are all "justifiable" from their normal thought processes.

        WARNING: Even when one is reasoning carefully, and following precisely logical steps, the conclusions will still depend on the initial axioms, which are usually not known.

        I generally presume that people are telling the truth as they see it unless there are good reasons to believe otherwise. It normally seems to work out well. So I believe that she really doesn't understand the fascination with guns. Of course, this is easy for me, because I don't understand it either, even though I can accept it. And I'm usually less worried about their fascination than with their actions, which aren't directly predictable from the fascination.

        --
        Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
        • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @07:06PM (6 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @07:06PM (#504480)

          Rational/irrational are not binary states.
          Some people are further disconnected from reality than others,
          Khallow is regularly found wandering around in the weeds.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @08:13PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @08:13PM (#504510)

            So easy to sling stones from the safety of anonymity.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @08:49PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @08:49PM (#504522)

              What the parent says!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @09:46PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @09:46PM (#504550)

                Yo momma!

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday May 05 2017, @06:00AM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 05 2017, @06:00AM (#504705) Journal
            Note the two characteristics. Posting from complete anonymity and making completely unsubstantiated claims. There's nothing here for me to fix.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @05:15PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @05:15PM (#505483)

              Obvious answer: yourself.

              On the house ;)

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday May 06 2017, @10:48PM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday May 06 2017, @10:48PM (#505592) Journal
                I'll ignore this then, like all the other pointless quips.
      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday May 04 2017, @10:10PM (1 child)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 04 2017, @10:10PM (#504559) Journal

        most pointedly in the right-wing Republican take over of the NRA.

        I think that you got the causation factor fuckingly mixed up.
        It's the NRA who took over the... ummm... "right-wing republicans"**, for the simple reason that NRA has money to buy vot... errr.... contribute to the election campaign.

        ** "right-wing republicans"** - that sounds almost tautological, given that US lacks a "left wing" entirely.
        From the perspective of other countries, your electoral choice seems to be between "reactionaries" (republicans) and "conservatives" (democrats)

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @11:05PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 04 2017, @11:05PM (#504574)

          For decades the NRA used to be in favor of gun control. [salon.com]
          That all changed after the civil rights era.

          Same thing with abortion. Evangelicals used to be solidly in favor of abortion rights.
          That also changed after the civil rights era.

          Neither was a coincidence.
          The former out of fear of meeting black people, the later because you could no longer officially use racism as a platform to unify the churches, so they needed a new cause to rally around.

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by khallow on Friday May 05 2017, @03:11AM (1 child)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 05 2017, @03:11AM (#504657) Journal

        You don't say, khallow! Who do you think is the most egregious case of this?

        You're in there near the top of the list (only some really crazy people are ahead of you). But for the climate change example, sjames [soylentnews.org] was the latest to make that mistake. I see you gave [soylentnews.org] the concept a spin as well.

        Personally, I'm looking forward to your final good bye. I'm sure it'll be quite stirring and just as much a shitting on philosophical thought as your usual fare.

        One thing you've never respected is that reasoning takes time. At times, you've indicated a desire for good discourse, and then crapped on anyone (particularly me) who tried. I'm no longer playing the game.

        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday May 05 2017, @03:23AM

          by aristarchus (2645) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:23AM (#504662) Journal

          Don't go away, khallow! I enjoy our little talks.

          and then crapped on anyone (particularly me) who tried. I'm no longer playing the game.

          Don't quit, khallow, try harder! I will wait however long it takes for you to learn to reason!