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posted by Fnord666 on Friday May 05 2017, @09:53AM   Printer-friendly
from the language-evolves-too dept.

Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard

When uploaded to Netflix, an episode of the educational children's show "Bill Nye the Science Guy" cut out a segment saying that chromosomes determine one's gender.

[...] While noncontroversial at the time, the 1996 segment appears to contradict Netflix's new series "Bill Nye Saves the World."

The new show endorses a socially liberal understanding of gender, under which gender is defined by self-identification rather than genetics and there are more than just the two traditional genders.

People, people, people... Say it with me: The Internet Never Forgets.

Source: http://freebeacon.com/culture/netflix-edits-bill-nye-episode-remove-segment-chromosomes-determine-gender/


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @10:28AM (145 children)

    Rather than cutting out such content, it seems like it would have been an opportunity to discuss both how the social construct called "gender" has changed since 1996, as compared with the biological concept of sex.

    We seem to waste many opportunities to do good things. That's sad.

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @10:36AM (132 children)

    There's no such differentiation. They are synonyms and always have been.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @10:49AM (56 children)

      by Wootery (2341) on Friday May 05 2017, @10:49AM (#504762)

      But what term is better for the 'gender' you identify with?

      Repurposing 'gender' to have a different meaning from 'sex' doesn't seem obviously wrongheaded.

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @10:56AM (41 children)

        Arbitrarily changing the meaning of an established word to suit your political ends is always wrongheaded.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:11AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:11AM (#504775)

          Tell that to the people conveniently redefining words like "truth" and "news" to fit their own agenda.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fadrian on Friday May 05 2017, @02:37PM (21 children)

          by fadrian (3194) on Friday May 05 2017, @02:37PM (#504874) Homepage

          Changing the meaning of already agreed-upon words is what we do in languages. It's called linguistic change. Get used to it. It will happen.

          --
          That is all.
          • (Score: 5, Touché) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @02:46PM (6 children)

            You're free to try. I'm free to refuse your redefinition.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Friday May 05 2017, @05:04PM (3 children)

              by Scruffy Beard 2 (6030) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:04PM (#505006)

              In researching this story, I have come to the conclusion that it is your side redefining 'gender' to be synonymous with 'sex'.

              The words are distinct for a reason.

              • (Score: 2) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday May 05 2017, @05:50PM

                by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:50PM (#505035) Journal

                Indeed, and that was actually true even in the mid-90s. I recall being in a class at that time and writing a report and having an argument with a teacher because I used the word "gender" when "sex" would actually have been more appropriate. At the time I didn't realize the difference, but then I read more about it and realized how these terms were being used in research articles and such.

                Yes, even when the original Bill Nye series was produced, people already knew there was a difference between the implications of the terms.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @06:16PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @06:16PM (#505054)

                In researching this story, I have come to the conclusion that it is your side redefining 'gender' to be synonymous with 'sex'.

                The words are distinct for a reason.

                Yes they are, 2 genders and multiple sexes.

              • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Saturday May 06 2017, @06:58AM

                by Magic Oddball (3847) on Saturday May 06 2017, @06:58AM (#505349) Journal

                Actually, if you check historic dictionaries, you'll find that they originally referred to the same concept, and only relatively recently diverged. From the 1828 Webster's Dictionary entry for 'gender' [webstersdictionary1828.com], for example:

                GEN'DER, noun [Latin genus, from geno, gigno; Gr.to beget, or to be born; Eng. kind. Gr. a woman, a wife; Sans. gena, a wife, and genaga, a father. We have begin from the same root. See Begin and Can.]

                1. Properly, kind; sort.

                2. A sex, male or female. Hence,

                3. In grammar, a difference in words to express distinction of sex; usually a difference of termination in nouns, adjectives and participles, to express the distinction of male and female. (...)

                GEN'DER, verb transitive To beget; but engender is more generally used.

                GEN'DER, verb intransitive To copulate; to breed. Leviticus 19:19.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:31AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:31AM (#505234)

              You're free to try. I'm free to refuse your redefinition.

              So if gender has a long history as describing the sexuality a person identifies as, rather than their biological sex, you would accept it? Your annoyance is purely because people are trying to change and pervert the language?

              See wikipedia. [wikipedia.org]

              Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[1][2]

              I look forward to you either champion-ing using "gender" to refer to grammatical categories, or champion-ing using it to refer to gender identity as opposed to biological sex. Assuming that you are being honest that you are upset at word re-definition.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @03:54PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @03:54PM (#505448)

              Look at the guzzard, grabbing upmods from Neanderthals!

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:48PM (7 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:48PM (#504890)

            What's established should be preserved. Tradition should be respected. Change should be limited.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:07PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:07PM (#504953)

              We should all be British and serve the monarchy. Etc.

              • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @05:12PM (4 children)

                by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:12PM (#505012) Journal

                No, you should all be Native Americans and serve the Gods. Etc.

                --
                --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                • (Score: 4, Touché) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 05 2017, @08:13PM (3 children)

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 05 2017, @08:13PM (#505125) Journal

                  No. All be caveman, all call Ugg, club deer and eat raw. Fire is liberal conspiracy! Ookha ookha ugh arg.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
                  • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 05 2017, @08:27PM (1 child)

                    by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 05 2017, @08:27PM (#505132) Journal

                    I like it. How do I join your club?

                    --
                    Washington DC delenda est.
                    • (Score: 2) by Zyx Abacab on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:53AM

                      by Zyx Abacab (3701) on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:53AM (#505274)

                      Time was that people would say:

                      Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

                      I guess the conspiracy got that one too.

                  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @09:44PM

                    by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @09:44PM (#505175) Journal

                    But remember, fire was forgotten until the Doctor brought matches.

                    --
                    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:28PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:28PM (#505165)

              Rejecting change based entirely on your fanciful whims is no traditionalism, it's merely pragmatism.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 05 2017, @04:12PM (4 children)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 05 2017, @04:12PM (#504960) Journal

            You're searching for "agreement"? Well, feck you very much. It's MY language, at least as much as it is yours, and I don't agree.

            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @05:13PM (3 children)

              by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:13PM (#505014) Journal

              'Feck!'
              'Arse!'
              'Girls!'
              'DRINK!'

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:00PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:00PM (#505117)

            Not when you rely on public shaming campaigns to enforce your meaning against those who don't confirm to your ideology. If a concept cannot succeed on it's own merit, it deserves to die.

        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @02:46PM (10 children)

          by Wootery (2341) on Friday May 05 2017, @02:46PM (#504884)

          to suit your political ends

          Well you can call it that, but like I said really it's just Let's have a word for the gender that someone identifies with. You don't have to be an ultra-liberal to agree that it makes sense to have a word for this -- you can even be ragingly transphobic and still want there to be a word.

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @02:56PM (9 children)

            That's fine. Pick a different one. Gender is already widely used and means a specific thing.

            Oh and don't go asking me to switch pronouns around to accommodate you. I'm not going to start every conversation by asking what your preferred pronouns are today. That's fucking stupid.

            Agree to those and we have no problems.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:05PM (7 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:05PM (#504951)

              in the show Billions the confused person says "my pronouns are they, theirs...". yeah, those are your fucking pronouns. I don't pick on people because they aren't "normal" but don't fucking try and tell me how to talk. that shit is your problem, not mine. I may react poorly. smash!

              • (Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:12PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @04:12PM (#504959)

                Cried the deadly killer attack nerd behind his mighty Laptop of Invincibility.

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Friday May 05 2017, @04:14PM (5 children)

                by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 05 2017, @04:14PM (#504963) Journal

                Who gives a flying fuck how you react? Smash? Some of us may well react in kind. When your face is smashed into the pavement, you may want to reconsider how fucking rude you are.

                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday May 05 2017, @04:22PM (4 children)

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:22PM (#504972) Journal

                  FOOD FIGHT!

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                  • (Score: 3, Informative) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @05:21PM (3 children)

                    by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:21PM (#505019) Journal

                    More like a fuck fight.... S&M anyone?

                    --
                    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:06PM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:06PM (#505087)

                      Runaway is in Arkansaws: he is just kinda touchy 'cause his meds have expired.

            • (Score: 2) by Wootery on Friday May 05 2017, @04:17PM

              by Wootery (2341) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:17PM (#504970)

              Agree that the pronouns thing goes too far, especially where it's used as a pretext to take offence.

        • (Score: 2) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Friday May 05 2017, @03:04PM (2 children)

          by Scruffy Beard 2 (6030) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:04PM (#504912)

          Many words have multiple meanings.

          Gender more properly describes the use of sexed pronouns than the actual sex itself.

          Sounds like the original script was not worded carefully enough.

          Even if you accept that sex!=gender, it is not clear that your chromosomes have no effect. In fact, I would venture to say that they have a very large effect.

          • (Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Friday May 05 2017, @08:31PM (1 child)

            by Phoenix666 (552) on Friday May 05 2017, @08:31PM (#505138) Journal

            Hmm, maybe from now on we ought to use "shklee," "shklim," and "shkler" whenever this topic comes up.

            --
            Washington DC delenda est.
            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @09:50PM

              by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @09:50PM (#505178) Journal

              I like She, Him and Shim.

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday May 05 2017, @04:27PM

          by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:27PM (#504973) Journal

          Gender [oed.com]

          gender, n.

          Forms: ME gendere, ME gendir, ME gendyr, ME–15 gendre, ME– gender, 15 18– gener (... (Show More)
          Frequency (in current use):
          Origin: A borrowing from French, combined with an English element. Etymons: French gendre , gender v.1
          Etymology: Anglo-Norman and Middle French gendre (Anglo-Norman and Middle French, French genre ... (Show More)
            1. Grammar.

            a. In some (esp. Indo-European) languages, as Latin, French, German, English, etc.: each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, neuter, common) of nouns and pronouns distinguished by the different inflections which they have and which they require in words syntactically associated with them; similarly applied to adjectives (and in some languages) verbs, to denote the appropriate form for accompanying a noun of such a class. Also: the fact, condition, or property of belonging to such a class; the classification of language in this way.
          Sometimes called grammatical gender, to distinguish this sense from natural gender: see grammatical gender at grammatical adj. 1a, natural gender n. at natural adj. and adv. Special uses 2.
          In most European languages, grammatical gender is now only very loosely associated with natural distinctions of sex.

        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday May 05 2017, @04:56PM (1 child)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:56PM (#504996) Journal

          Arbitrarily changing the meaning of an established word to suit your political ends

          This seems like an arbitrarily automatic response on your part, mon Petit Buse!

      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @06:35PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @06:35PM (#505069)

        But what term is better for the 'gender' you identify with?

        Gender identity. Are two words too many for you? Gotta have everything labeled with a single bite-sized word to describe it so your tiny little idiot mind can process it?

        Wow, you're even +5 insightful at the time of posting this. The pinheads got mod points today...

      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday May 05 2017, @07:43PM (9 children)

        by mhajicek (51) on Friday May 05 2017, @07:43PM (#505104)

        We don't ask what sex a cable connector is, we ask what gender. It's female gender if it has holes, it's male gender if it has pins. Painting it pink and putting a bow on it doesn't change it's gender. If you want to know what gender someone identifies as, as opposed to what gender they are, why not ask that specific question?

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:08PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:08PM (#505120)

          We don't ask what sex a cable connector is, we ask what gender. It's female gender if it has holes, it's male gender if it has pins. Painting it pink and putting a bow on it doesn't change it's gender. If you want to know what gender someone identifies as, as opposed to what gender they are, why not ask that specific question?

          Gender in biology has a specific meaning though. Genotype is immutable and phenotype mutable, this is why individuals born with both male and female sex organs are called "intersex" and not "intergender". There's no such thing as "intergender" in human beings because biological gender is binary and determined solely by the presence (or lack) of a Y chromosome.

          Also, a male XLR (canon) connector has holes whilst the female connector is a socket with pins. Is this proof of transgenderism in cable connectors?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:38PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:38PM (#505215)

            That takes me back. In the late 80s and early 90s, when Token Ring ("don't bogart that token my friend, pass it over here" with apologies to Little Feat; oh, and fuck CSMA/CD!) was still a thing, we had universal (sometimes referred to as hermaphroditic or "Boy George" -- get it?) connectors [wikipedia.org].

            So were those gender-bending network connectors the start of all this?
            /snark

        • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @09:53PM (6 children)

          by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @09:53PM (#505180) Journal

          I don't ask what gender it is... I ask is it male or female, with more of an anatomical picture than a Gender picture.

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday May 05 2017, @11:07PM (5 children)

            by mhajicek (51) on Friday May 05 2017, @11:07PM (#505206)

            What do you call an RS-232 gender changer?

            --
            The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
            • (Score: 2) by Bot on Friday May 05 2017, @11:14PM

              by Bot (3902) on Friday May 05 2017, @11:14PM (#505208) Journal

              > What do you call an RS-232 gender changer?

              Grandpa's denture.

              --
              Account abandoned.
            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:07AM (3 children)

              by Gaaark (41) on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:07AM (#505228) Journal

              Male to female adapter?

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
              • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:04AM (2 children)

                by mhajicek (51) on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:04AM (#505246)

                But if someone says "Hand me that gender changer" you'll know exactly what they mean.

                --
                The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
                • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:52AM (1 child)

                  by Gaaark (41) on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:52AM (#505287) Journal

                  I'd probably end up saying something like "hand me that transgender changer" and get odd looks, lol.

                  --
                  --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                  • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:53AM

                    by Gaaark (41) on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:53AM (#505288) Journal

                    I must say, I live in interesting times, lol.

                    --
                    --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 2) by jdavidb on Friday May 05 2017, @07:56PM (1 child)

        by jdavidb (5690) on Friday May 05 2017, @07:56PM (#505114) Homepage Journal

        Repurposing 'gender' to have a different meaning from 'sex' doesn't seem obviously wrongheaded.

        I have never seen this concept presented in a way that says the word has been repurposed. I've been told since college in the 1990s that the two words mean something different, with the implication that it has always been this way.

        --
        ⓋⒶ☮✝🕊 Secession is the right of all sentient beings
    • (Score: 0, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:50AM (6 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:50AM (#504764)

      Not anymore.
      A person's sex may be different from their gender.

      • (Score: 0, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @10:55AM (5 children)

        Nope, I'm afraid it can't. You obviously don't understand what synonym means but not knowing/caring what a word means is a common SJW failing.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:17AM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:17AM (#504777)

          TMB, disagreeing with you does make someone a SJW (especially when you so casually use that term in a pejorative way). The idea that there must be something wrong with someone who has different views/opinions/experiences is ridiculous. Resorting to name calling undermines any legitimacy your positions/views/arguments hold.

          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @01:01PM (3 children)

            Oh, I'm sorry. Show me on the Venn diagram exactly where any other human believes gender is not the same thing as sex but isn't an SJW. Yeah, I didn't think so.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:36AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:36AM (#505235)

              Oh, I'm sorry. Show me on the Venn diagram exactly where any other human believes gender is not the same thing as sex but isn't an SJW. Yeah, I didn't think so.

              So you think the entire field of psychology is "SJW?"

              See here [psychiatryonline.org]

              You can't see the whole DSM there, but there are exurbs which make it clear that "sex" and "gender" are different.

              Really you usually are inflammatory but thoughtful. I'm surprised to see you resorting to thoughtless name calling, especially when 30 seconds of online searching will refute your accusation.

            • (Score: 1) by charon on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:48AM

              by charon (5660) on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:48AM (#505238) Journal
              Sure, if you have specifically constructed your definition of a SJW as "a person who thinks gender and sex are not the same thing," that intersection is a perfect circle. Apparently a SJW is really "whatever negative thing I don't like today."
            • (Score: 2) by Wootery on Monday May 08 2017, @08:41AM

              by Wootery (2341) on Monday May 08 2017, @08:41AM (#506250)

              The great thing about 'SJW' is that you can define it any way you like. Which is ironic, really.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @11:13AM (54 children)

      There's no such differentiation. They are synonyms and always have been.

      There have been cross dressers, butch women, lady-boys and all manner of other ways we define ourselves as long as there have been humans. So, no, they have not always been synonyms, nor will that change.

      A small percentage of humans are born with both sets of genitalia. When the doctor (and/or the parents) decide which set of genitalia should be removed, that's a socially constructed choice.

      Still others have XXY chromosome sets. Often, despite the Y chromosome, such people are women. If someone has a Y chromosome, yet has female genitalia, how does that comport with your conception of sex vs. gender?

      And since we've developed the technology for "gender reassignment," with hormone treatments and surgery, you might have had sex with someone who has had such treatment and not even know it.

      Some cultures have explicitly defined non male/female genders [wikipedia.org].

      Which makes gender a cultural construct. Which was my whole point. There is a difference between biological "sex" and cultural "gender". That those are the same for the vast majority of us doesn't obviate that.

      Most of us (IIRC in excess of 97%) are that way. They are comfortable with their gender (even if born hermaphroditic and assigned a gender). Shall we deny that small percentage of those who wish to choose differently their personal agency to think and choose for themselves?

      Given that you claim to be a libertarian, it surprises me that you would reject the idea that people should have such agency.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:56AM (32 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:56AM (#504789)

        Which makes gender a cultural construct. Which was my whole point. There is a difference between biological "sex" and cultural "gender".

        Being born with or without a Y chromosome is not a cultural construct. One may as well claim species to be a social construct, declare themselves a poodle and go crap on their neighbours lawn. Secure psychiatric institutions -- these are social constructs!

        • (Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @12:56PM (31 children)

          Which makes gender a cultural construct. Which was my whole point. There is a difference between biological "sex" and cultural "gender".

          Being born with or without a Y chromosome is not a cultural construct. One may as well claim species to be a social construct, declare themselves a poodle and go crap on their neighbours lawn. Secure psychiatric institutions -- these are social constructs!

          That's right. If you have a Y chromosome (except in cases where you have XXY and female genitalia), you are male. That's your sex.

          How you are perceived and classified in the culture is much more complicated, at least for a small number of people.

          What's more, Research shows that varying hormone levels at various times during pregnancy can create the situation where the body has one set of characteristics, while the brain is configured differently. Those are biological and physiological traits.
          https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150213112317.htm [sciencedaily.com]
          people.kzoo.edu/ggregg/biolgend.ppt

          I really don't understand what the big deal is about this. Those who identify their gender as distinct from their biological sex make up maybe 1% of the population. Live and let live, I say.

          Even if there are folks who want to blur the lines (and that's nothing new), who cares? It doesn't affect anyone else.

          It amazes me that folks think that they should have the right to dictate to others how they should live their lives.

          Heinlein [goodreads.com] had the right idea:

          “The correct way to punctuate a sentence that states: "Of course it is none of my business, but -- " is to place a period after the word "but." Don't use excessive force in supplying such a moron with a period. Cutting his throat is only a momentary pleasure and is bound to get you talked about.”

          So go ahead and live however you want. But you don't have the right to force your beliefs and lifestyle on anyone else. Don't be a "self-righteous fathead who mistakes his trained-in prejudices for the laws of nature."

          --
          No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
          • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @01:08PM (29 children)

            You can say it as much as you like but it's never going to be true. Gender = sex. What a thing is, it is, and no amount of wishing or denial will change that.

            Now you can let your freak flag fly however you like and that's fine with me but I'm not going to make special allowances or effort to make you feel comfortable with your particular peccadilloes. I have no moral obligation to do so and you have no grounds to demand that I do.

            --
            My rights don't end where your fear begins.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:01PM (5 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:01PM (#504845)

              Do you also have arguments with people about the usage of "hacker" to mean "criminal who uses computers"?

              • (Score: 3, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @02:51PM (2 children)

                Yup.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 3, Informative) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @09:59PM (1 child)

                  by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @09:59PM (#505182) Journal

                  Me too.

                  --
                  --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
                  • (Score: 2) by Bot on Friday May 05 2017, @11:16PM

                    by Bot (3902) on Friday May 05 2017, @11:16PM (#505210) Journal

                    Me 11.

                    --
                    Account abandoned.
              • (Score: 3, Touché) by tangomargarine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:37PM (1 child)

                by tangomargarine (667) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:37PM (#504930)

                I know, all those prescriptivist assholes ruining the language for everybody. Oh wait...

                --
                "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
                • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Sunday May 07 2017, @01:36AM

                  by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Sunday May 07 2017, @01:36AM (#505655) Journal

                  Hah, nice. You just about made me cat /usr/bin/teacup/tea | /dev/hazuki/nose > /mnt/desktop with that one :D That low-key, snarky cutting humor is awesome.

                  --
                  I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @02:03PM (9 children)

              You can say it as much as you like but it's never going to be true. Gender = sex. What a thing is, it is, and no amount of wishing or denial will change that.

              Now you can let your freak flag fly however you like and that's fine with me but I'm not going to make special allowances or effort to make you feel comfortable with your particular peccadilloes. I have no moral obligation to do so and you have no grounds to demand that I do.

              As an aside, I am male and identify as such. I have never had any confusion about that. As such, I have no "freak flag" to fly and my peccadilloes don't run into those areas.

              I'm not telling you what to do. If you come to my house, I might make certain requests regarding your behavior or what you bring with you. You, of course, can decline based on those strictures. No harm no foul. Other than that, I have no interest in telling you what you should or shouldn't do or say.

              I'm not trying to PC you into silence. Not that it matters, but I generally appreciate your bluntness. I don't believe I've ever even intimated that you should modify your speech or behavior for *any* reason. Nor would I. It's not my business. Full stop.

              What I'm telling you is that (read the links I posted if you like, I think you'll find them illuminating) you're flat wrong on the science.

              Make of that what you will. It's no skin off my nose either way, Buzzard.

              --
              No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
              • (Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @02:51PM (8 children)

                I don't personally care about what science has to say about how people choose to view themselves, because I don't care how people choose to view themselves. What I'm saying is pick a different word, you can't have this one; it's already in use.

                --
                My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                • (Score: 3, Funny) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:04PM (1 child)

                  Gender on rye, with swiss cheese and mustard.
                  That was a helluva gender last night, wasn't it?
                  I've been gendering about that for weeks!
                  So many genders, so little time.
                  If you get a gender, you should make sure you really want it. They're hard to remove.

                  Have a great gender, Buzzard!

                  --
                  No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Friday May 05 2017, @04:40PM

                  by fustakrakich (6150) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:40PM (#504985) Journal

                  I don't personally care about what science has to say

                  Uh oh! I think I've heard that before. Anyway, it has become a disturbing trend

                  --
                  La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Friday May 05 2017, @05:01PM (2 children)

                  by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:01PM (#505001) Journal

                  I don't personally care about what science has to say...

                  You don't care what the science says.
                  You don't care what the dictionary says.

                  Yet, you accuse others of playing fast-and-loose with definitions.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:35PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @05:35PM (#505025)

                    The dictionary is biased and liberal. It does not reflect the modern understanding of the word.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @03:58PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @03:58PM (#505450)

                    He is a turd, the remains of dead animals eaten by an ugly bird. He is a mighty piece of crap!

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:03AM (1 child)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:03AM (#505245)

                  What I'm saying is pick a different word, you can't have this one; it's already in use.

                  Who made you the word police?
                  You obviously care, very, very much.
                  Why?

                  What is it to you if other people use a word in a way that has nothing to do with you?
                  As an individualist above all else, you seem to be oddly over-invested in the collective usage of a word.

                  Why are you unable to say, "fine, have your stupid definition" and then go on living your life never using the definition that you find so offensive?

            • (Score: 2) by linuxrocks123 on Friday May 05 2017, @02:58PM (2 children)

              by linuxrocks123 (2557) on Friday May 05 2017, @02:58PM (#504906) Journal

              In many languages, all nouns, including inanimate objects, are arbitrarily assigned to have a certain gender. In some languages, there are more than two genders to which nouns are assigned. When taking the relevant classes, this information was always phrased as "Latin has three genders" and never as "Latin has three sexes". Gender and sex do not have identical meanings in standard English.

              • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:35PM (1 child)

                by tangomargarine (667) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:35PM (#504929)

                Good points but I have a nit to pick.

                In some languages, there are more than two genders to which nouns are assigned.

                Isn't neuter more accurately described as an absence of gender, rather than a third gender?

                Hell, for some wacky reason the German word for "girl" is neuter (das Mädchen).

                The bottom line is that we should not confuse the name 'gender' for biological sex, because grammatical gender is merely a way for partitioning reality into different sets of things on a grammatical basis.

                - are there languages with more than 3 genders [quora.com] (yeah okay hardly a reputable source lol)

                --
                "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
                • (Score: 4, Informative) by AthanasiusKircher on Friday May 05 2017, @05:59PM

                  by AthanasiusKircher (5291) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:59PM (#505047) Journal

                  Isn't neuter more accurately described as an absence of gender, rather than a third gender?

                  No, that comes from confusing grammatical gender with sex.

                  Gender etymologically [etymonline.com] is related to genre and ultimately to Latin genus. It just means "class" of things. That's it. It used to just mean grammatical classification. In English it came to have reference to male/female sex in the 15th century, but it wasn't until the 20th century that it really became strongly associated with that (and even then, it was originally used as a sort of humorous way of saying "sex" once "sex" became more of a "dirty word" in polite conversation).

                  Anyhow, historically and etymologically, gender was primarily a classification scheme for words, not a reference to biological sex. As such, neuter words definitely have a gender, i.e., classification.

            • (Score: 5, Informative) by butthurt on Friday May 05 2017, @03:00PM (6 children)

              by butthurt (6141) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:00PM (#504907) Journal

              Oxford University Press is apparently fully SJW-converged. Its first definition of "gender":

              1 Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female. [...]

              -- https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender [oxforddictionaries.com]

              • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @03:08PM (5 children)

                2. Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
                ‘adults of both sexes’

                --https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/sex

                Multiple dictionaries say the same thing. Gosh, those SJWs are everywhere!

                --
                No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:07PM (4 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:07PM (#505156)

                  There is a lot of irony in your embrace of the range of definitions of gender and your hardcore insistence on the narrow usage of the term "race."

                  I'm sure you've got some rationalization why the same dictionary is correct for one word and incorrect for another.

                  • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @09:42PM (3 children)

                    There is a lot of irony in your embrace of the range of definitions of gender and your hardcore insistence on the narrow usage of the term "race."

                    I'm sure you've got some rationalization why the same dictionary is correct for one word and incorrect for another.

                    Yup. Because I said so. Life is wonderful, isn't it?

                    --
                    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:31AM (2 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:31AM (#505259)

                      Yup. Because I said so. Life is wonderful, isn't it?

                      Looks like you and buzzard are in complete harmony.

                      • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:44AM (1 child)

                        Yup. Because I said so. Life is wonderful, isn't it?

                        Looks like you and buzzard are in complete harmony.

                        If somone's going to whinge like a six year old, they're going to get the standard mommy response.

                        --
                        No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:09PM

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:09PM (#505421)

                          If somone's going to whinge like a six year old, they're going to get the standard mommy response.

                          Haha. When the might dummy does it, he's a 6-year old princess stamping his foot.
                          When you do it you are a mommy.

                          Your cognitive dissonance is showing.

            • (Score: 1) by Weasley on Friday May 05 2017, @03:20PM (1 child)

              by Weasley (6421) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:20PM (#504925)

              You can say it as much as you like but it's never going to be true.

              I was agreeing with you but you're just sounding foolish now. Gay used to mean happy. Now it means homosexual and using gay to mean happy is extremely archaic. This change happened quickly. It could happen just as quick with gender.

            • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @10:15PM

              by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @10:15PM (#505191) Journal

              I guess I agree:

              After thinking a bit about it, I don't call it a gender issue: I'd call it a way of thinking.

                I think of myself as a male, and my body agrees.
              If my body didn't agree, then I would say my gender is female, but I consider my brain male (or neuter??)

              I guess I look at body as gender,but way of thinking is different from gender.

              I just don't look as gender as anything but sex, I guess.

              --
              --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:31PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:31PM (#504829)

            That's right. If you have a Y chromosome (except in cases where you have XXY and female genitalia), you are male. That's your sex.

            Thank you. I would add that most people born with XXY chromosome anomalies have a male phenotype and that in these instances we are discussing rare congenital conditions and not genders.

            I really don't understand what the big deal is about this. Those who identify their gender as distinct from their biological sex make up maybe 1% of the population. Live and let live, I say.

            Now we get to the crux of the matter, the aggressive normalisation and promotion of non-binary nonsense to the extent that children are being raised as gender neutral. That is everyone's business because in many cases, it is clear psychological abuse. Individuals suffering from gender dysphoria are rare, the more vociferous individuals attempting to bully others into favoured pronoun usage appear to be these gender non-conformity types.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:57AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:57AM (#504790)

        xxy and yyx Are NOT genders. They are medical conditions.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:05PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @02:05PM (#504849)

          Being alive is a medical condition. Although it is fortunately temporary.

      • (Score: 2) by wisnoskij on Friday May 05 2017, @12:38PM (2 children)

        by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Friday May 05 2017, @12:38PM (#504804)

        So because a womb screws up and exposes a female fetus to a little more testosterone suddenly sex is a made up concept?
        Because albinos prove that skin color is a social construct.

        • (Score: 2) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Friday May 05 2017, @03:09PM (1 child)

          by Scruffy Beard 2 (6030) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:09PM (#504917)

          sex in individual, gender is social. (hand-waving a lot there).

          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @10:17PM

            by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @10:17PM (#505193) Journal

            All this talk about sex is making me want to do some hand waving too, lol.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by theluggage on Friday May 05 2017, @01:36PM (6 children)

        by theluggage (1797) on Friday May 05 2017, @01:36PM (#504833)

        There have been cross dressers, butch women, lady-boys and all manner of other ways we define ourselves as long as there have been humans.

        First, I'm pretty sure that a significant proportion of cross-dressers don't consider themselves to actually belong to the sex they impersonate (AFAIK even being gay isn't compulsory) and that even fewer women who might, for one reason or another, find themselves (offensively) labelled as "butch" consider themselves to be male. Actual transgenderism (is that a word?) may be connected with such things, but it isn't the same - and while the phenomenon may be older than humanity, the wide social acceptance that people are entitled to choose their gender independently of what sexual organs they were born with is a phenomenon of the last couple of decades. This has created a requirement for separate terms for "biological gender" and "social gender" where none existed in the past. Biology may not have changed, but society has.

        There is a difference between biological "sex" and cultural "gender".

        However there's no clear consensus on the vocabulary - "sex = biological, gender=cultural" might be a sensible to adopt some such convention going forward, there's certainly no justification for going back and censoring 20-year-old videos that don't use your preferred terminology.

        Still others have XXY chromosome sets. Often, despite the Y chromosome, such people are women. If someone has a Y chromosome, yet has female genitalia, how does that comport with your conception of sex vs. gender?

        It just goes to show that reality is always more complex than high school science - but you have to start somewhere because the simplistic observations lay the groundwork for more sophisticated models: After the discovery of general relativity and quantum mechanics, nobody went back and airbrushed Newton and Mendeleev from recorded history - they weren't wrong they were incomplete and the thinking behind them was still of value.

        Anyway, all of these "nature vs. nurture/biology vs. culture" arguments have two big failings: first, they assume that there is a distinction line between the two (basically a hangover from the religious conceit that we have a soul that is somehow more than the product of our physical nature - and that our culture is something other than the product of our biology) and, secondly, it's all non-falsifiable because it is almost impossible to test experimentally without committing ethical atrocities.

        Maybe in the future there will be a complete biological model explaining the 256 gender types identified by social science. For the moment, the best option might be to let people self-identifiy.

        Shall we deny that small percentage of those who wish to choose differently their personal agency to think and choose for themselves?

        I see no evidence that the GP was opposing this, just objecting to the retconning of the language and censoring of perfectly valid (if simplified) science because it failed the buzzword test. This is what stirs up some of the division on these issues: the presumption that someone who isn't quite pro-active enough in using your preferred terminology is actually showing intolerance. If you accuse everybody who disagrees with you of bigotry, soon only bigots will disagree with you.

        • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @02:24PM (3 children)

          However there's no clear consensus on the vocabulary - "sex = biological, gender=cultural" might be a sensible to adopt some such convention going forward, there's certainly no justification for going back and censoring 20-year-old videos that don't use your preferred terminology.

          In my initial post [soylentnews.org] I commented that I thought it was a bad idea to censor prior work.

          In fact, I'm pretty anti-censorship in general.

          My reference to cross-dressing, etc. was more to point out that culture plays a role in gender identification. Biology also plays a role. And new research is pointing out that during pregnancy brains can develop in conflicting ways from the body. There is no religious bias (at least not from me). I reject the concept of dualism as a ridiculous anachronism.

          Making a human is a complex undertaking. From the chemistry of conception, to the incredibly complex interplay of cellular growth and replication modulated by many enzymes and hormones, to the socialization and environment of the individual.

          For the most part, I think we're in violent agreement. We can disagree as to nomenclature if you like.

          --
          No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by theluggage on Friday May 05 2017, @03:09PM (2 children)

            by theluggage (1797) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:09PM (#504918)

            To be fair, having gone back and looked at the context for the original video, the main focus of the show is probability, not biology, which makes "censoring" a little more forgivable.

            Trouble is, how the hell do you introduce probability to kids when the interesting real world examples are all about gambling, sex or death? As someone who has actually worked on educational materials I can attest to this being a headache: we know that using entirely dry/abstract/contrived contexts for science and math turns kids off and deprives them of educational opportunities, bringing the real world into the classroom engages kids and improves their learning but opens a minefield of sensitivities: Try even stocking the imaginary school shop with items that 5/6-year-olds might realistically buy that are healthy, eco-friendly, gender neutral, race neutral, social-class neutral, hypo-allergenic, don't promote specific products or brands and cost less than 99c (because adding numbers over 100 isn't on the curriculum until next year). The kids are gonna get sick of apples.

            • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @11:55PM (1 child)

              To be fair, having gone back and looked at the context for the original video, the main focus of the show is probability, not biology, which makes "censoring" a little more forgivable.

              A fair point. However (given that I haven't read TFA or watched the video -- informed discourse at its best, FTW!), I have a problem with censorship in general. I think an addendum or inserting *additional* footage would have been preferable to censoring the original.

              Trouble is, how the hell do you introduce probability to kids when the interesting real world examples are all about gambling, sex or death? As someone who has actually worked on educational materials I can attest to this being a headache: we know that using entirely dry/abstract/contrived contexts for science and math turns kids off and deprives them of educational opportunities, bringing the real world into the classroom engages kids and improves their learning but opens a minefield of sensitivities: Try even stocking the imaginary school shop with items that 5/6-year-olds might realistically buy that are healthy, eco-friendly, gender neutral, race neutral, social-class neutral, hypo-allergenic, don't promote specific products or brands and cost less than 99c (because adding numbers over 100 isn't on the curriculum until next year). The kids are gonna get sick of apples.

              Another good point. Although I would point out that even apples are problematic, given pesticides and GMO strains [scienceblogs.com].

              In fact, there isn't anything except mom (but you can't have more than one, so that's right out) and apple pie (those damn apples again! so I guess not) that you can use for this stuff.

              More seriously, it's an interesting problem. Perhaps creators of such materials could, you know, talk to young kids and get a sense of how they view such things to give them ideas as to the types of examples and comparisons to use.

              --
              No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
              • (Score: 2) by theluggage on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:32PM

                by theluggage (1797) on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:32PM (#505426)

                In fact, there isn't anything except mom

                Little Alex's mommy went to hospital and is now ver "other daddy" you insensitive clod!

                More seriously, it's an interesting problem. Perhaps creators of such materials could, you know, talk to young kids and get a sense of how they view such things to give them ideas as to the types of examples and comparisons to use.

                They do. Except, its not the young kids that are filtering what you can talk about in the classroom for "triggers" - its the teachers, superintendents and upwards who are terrified and tend to turn sensible "guidelines" into iron rules.

                I suspect that you could have a great science lesson on genetics vs. gender that would elicit surprisingly mature discussions from the kids and teach everybody (including the teacher) a lot about science and tolerance. However, it would be a very, very brave teacher that would tackle it and run the subsequent gauntlet of complaints from parents (often based on incomplete responses to 'what did you do at school today?')

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by Scruffy Beard 2 on Friday May 05 2017, @03:22PM (1 child)

          by Scruffy Beard 2 (6030) on Friday May 05 2017, @03:22PM (#504927)

          However there's no clear consensus on the vocabulary - "sex = biological, gender=cultural" might be a sensible to adopt some such convention going forward, there's certainly no justification for going back and censoring 20-year-old videos that don't use your preferred terminology.

          Gender only became synonymous with sex after sex reassignment became available in the mid-20th century.

          The word gender has been used since the 14th century as a grammatical term, referring to classes of noun designated as masculine, feminine, or neuter in some languages. The sense denoting biological sex has also been used since the 14th century, but this did not become common until the mid 20th century. Although the words gender and sex are often used interchangeably, they have slightly different connotations; sex tends to refer to biological diferences, while gender more often refers to cultural and social differences and sometimes encompasses a broader range of identities than the binary of male and female.

          - Definition of gender in English [oxforddictionaries.com]

          • (Score: 2) by theluggage on Friday May 05 2017, @05:22PM

            by theluggage (1797) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:22PM (#505020)

            "Although the words gender and sex are often used interchangeably"

            ...is the salient point there unless you're an etymologist.

            Rather boringly, though, having looked at the video in question neither the words "gender" or "sex" feature prominently so we're all arguing over a straw person here... It is "boy" and "girl" but it is clear from the context that they're talking about biological sex. It's also a very short slot about probability that certainly doesn't pretend to be a comprehensive lesson in genetics, so the question is, is it OK to refer to biological sex without always appending an explanation of modern thinking on gender identity?

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @05:28PM (2 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:28PM (#505021) Journal

        My problem is: I'm old (well, 50's).

        I hear that some people are supposed to be called 'they' or 'them'.

        If i see a her, i'll probably say 'her', same with a guy: AND, just like if you look like a girl and i call you a guy: don't be offended.... i made a mistake.

        If i call you a her and you are a 'them', don't be offended. I am not used to this.

        Just like it used to be okay to call someone a 'nigger' and then black and then coloured and now whatever.....

        It will take time to work through the system. Kids growing up with this will see it as normal.
        For now, there should be calm and understanding.

        As for rednecks/haters/Nazis etc who will never change, well, ignorance and stupidity will never change either, lol.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Friday May 05 2017, @05:29PM

          by Gaaark (41) on Friday May 05 2017, @05:29PM (#505023) Journal

          "AND, just like if you look like a girl and i call you a guy"

          damn... shoulda been "if you look like a girl and you ARE a guy and i call you a girl"

          --
          --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:13PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @02:13PM (#505423)

          > Just like it used to be okay to call someone a 'nigger' and then black and then coloured and now whatever.....

          It was never okay to call someone the n-word.
          Seriously, it was never a neutral term.
          Its just that black people didn't have the social capital to do anything about it.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:16PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @08:16PM (#505126)

        Still others have XXY chromosome sets. Often, despite the Y chromosome, such people are women. If someone has a Y chromosome, yet has female genitalia, how does that comport with your conception of sex vs. gender?

        Some people are born without a brain due to genetic deformities. How does that affect your perception about the definition of a human?

        Abnormal chromosome sets are obviously errors, where as gender defines the normal state. People who have them have an abnormal gender. This has no relevance to the situation where a person with the XY set claims to be female, when we can objectively determine beyond any doubt that they are in fact male. Meanwhile, we cannot objectively determine their gender identity because there is no objective factor by which to distinguish an XY "woman" and an XY "man".

        The concept of gender identity is pseudo-science drivel, the only basis for it is feel-good pretense. Congratulations, you've reinvented religion.

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday May 05 2017, @08:18PM (4 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Friday May 05 2017, @08:18PM (#505128) Journal

        Don't bother. I've presented this shithead documented evidence of gender-variant individuals going back to Sumerian--not Babylonian, *Sumerian*--times, and the only responses I got were personal attacks and insistent repetition that this is still "redefining words." Because as we all know, something that happened 5000+ years ago is something "SJWs" are doing right now, specifically to victimize Uzzard personally.

        The guy's nuts.

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:45PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:45PM (#505200)

          No dude, intersex is not the same as transgender. Those born with a Y chromosome and female genitalia are infertile because their gender is male. We don't stigmatise them, we support them -- like the rest of us they deserve the chance to be the best they can be. People born XX or XY who want to change gender... there are two biological genders and it is not possible to change gender, only sex. Stop pretending otherwise.

        • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Saturday May 06 2017, @12:00AM (2 children)

          Don't bother. I've presented this shithead documented evidence of gender-variant individuals going back to Sumerian--not Babylonian, *Sumerian*--times, and the only responses I got were personal attacks and insistent repetition that this is still "redefining words." Because as we all know, something that happened 5000+ years ago is something "SJWs" are doing right now, specifically to victimize Uzzard personally.

          The guy's nuts.

          Buzzard is emphatically not nuts. He is, however, somewhat set in his ways and not as well-informed as he thinks.

          More importantly, he loves getting folks all worked up. When you call him out, he doubles down to see if he can get a rise out of you. He manages to do so with you on a regular basis. As long as you let him push your buttons, he's a happy camper.

          tl;dr: Buzzard isn't dumb or crazy. He just has different ideas about the world than you do, and loves to bait.

          --
          No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:38AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @01:38AM (#505264)

            tl;dr: Buzzard isn't dumb or crazy. He just has different ideas about the world than you do, and loves to bait.

            You give him waaaaay more credit than he deserves.
            The guy is deeply passive aggressive.
            Its not the baiting he likes so much as it is the endorphin rush of smug he gets when he thinks he's shown his own righteousness by proving hypocrisy on the part of people he doesn't like.
            And when that backfires, as it did in this submission, he goes full retard. Just look at all his posts that are nothing more than princess foot-stamping declarations that he's right no matter what. Its not a stretch to define that kind of reaction as both dumb and crazy. And it happens a lot.

            • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:25AM

              by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:25AM (#505312) Journal

              ^ Thiiiiiiiiiiiis. I wish I could mod this like +10 so it becomes something everyone sees once on their first login or something.

              --
              I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 5, Informative) by wisnoskij on Friday May 05 2017, @12:24PM (6 children)

      by wisnoskij (5149) <reversethis-{moc ... ksonsiwnohtanoj}> on Friday May 05 2017, @12:24PM (#504801)

      Reminder that the concept of "gender" as we use it today (as different from sex) was coined by a guy named Money, whose experiments on gender in baby humans caused everyone involved to not only to reject his forced gender change but to ultimately kill themselves. They still use his published studies to "prove" that gender is separate from chromosomes even those we now know all his data is based on lies and that the sexual reassignment caused severe mental issues, was rejected as soon as the patient grew up, and eventually resulted in suicide.

      All this happened under the same research ethics code we use today.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by butthurt on Friday May 05 2017, @02:53PM (2 children)

      by butthurt (6141) on Friday May 05 2017, @02:53PM (#504896) Journal

      The ultra-liberal dictionary.com makes a subtle distinction, defining "gender" as

      1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior:
      the feminine gender.
      Compare sex (def 1).

      -- http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gender [dictionary.com]

      and "sex" as

      1. either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

      -- http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sex [dictionary.com]

      • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday May 05 2017, @03:02PM (1 child)

        Being as they also include an entirely open definition later down the page, I'm disinclined to allow them as an unbiased source.

        --
        My rights don't end where your fear begins.
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:02PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:02PM (#505184)

          Even dictionaries are fake news now huh slugger.

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Friday May 05 2017, @04:10PM

      by DeathMonkey (1380) on Friday May 05 2017, @04:10PM (#504957) Journal

      They are synonyms and always have been.

      Are they?

      gender [dictionary.com]

      noun
      1.
      either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior:
      the feminine gender.
      Compare sex (def 1). [dictionary.com]

      Usage note Expand
      Although it is possible to define gender as “sex,” indicating that the term can be used when differentiating male creatures from female ones biologically, the concept of gender, a word primarily applied to human beings, has additional connotations—more rich and more amorphous—having to do with general behavior, social interactions, and most

      sex (def 1). [dictionary.com]

      noun
      1.
      either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated with reference to the reproductive functions.

    • (Score: 1) by Atatsu on Friday May 05 2017, @06:50PM

      by Atatsu (4251) on Friday May 05 2017, @06:50PM (#505077)

      The medical industry would disagree with you.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:57PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @07:57PM (#505116)

      No gender is the parts. Sex is the action. And yes there are are more than to types of gender.

      Next time you fill out a form with "sex" answer yes or no or not my type. See how fast the form is corrected. It called sexual herassment.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:50AM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:50AM (#504765)

    both how the social construct called "gender" has changed since 1996, as compared with the biological concept of sex.

    Gender is not a social construct -- science tells us there are only two genders and that gender is not an assignment but an irreversible in-utero development. Being confused about this is recognised as a serious mental illness, one society should stop encouraging or enabling.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by NotSanguine on Friday May 05 2017, @11:18AM (2 children)

      both how the social construct called "gender" has changed since 1996, as compared with the biological concept of sex.

      Gender is not a social construct -- science tells us there are only two genders and that gender is not an assignment but an irreversible in-utero development. Being confused about this is recognised as a serious mental illness, one society should stop encouraging or enabling.

      Incorrect. Gender has *always* been a social construct [soylentnews.org]. Sex is a biological trait. And even the biological trait isn't always a binary. Some have XXY chromosome sets. Some are born with male and female genitalia.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:30AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @11:30AM (#504783)

        Incorrect. Gender has *always* been a social construct. Sex is a biological trait. And even the biological trait isn't always a binary. Some have XXY chromosome sets. Some are born with male and female genitalia.

        Incorrect. Two genders, multiple sexes. You cannot change the chromosomes you were born with, hence, you cannot "change gender" or treat chromosome irregular conditions such as klinefelter syndrome.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:56PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:56PM (#504840)

        Double down on that faggotry!

    • (Score: 2) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:57AM (1 child)

      by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:57AM (#505331)

      It's not confusion, and the idea that it's mental illness has proven unsustainable.

      Delusions can be cured. Attempts to change the internal identity of trans* people have failed even when escalated to tactics we'd now consider unethical.

      The 3-year-old girl who said "Mama, something went wrong when I was in your tummy. Please put me back so I can come out a girl" was the opposite of confused.

      Anyone who cares about what doctors have discovered can check out wpath.org.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @09:16AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @09:16AM (#505368)

        It's not confusion, and the idea that it's mental illness has proven unsustainable.

        You will find "gender dysphoria" in DSM-V, previous editions have it as "gender identity disorder".

        Delusions can be cured.

        People suffering from mental disorders are not merely deluded, if you think that then it is you who is deluded.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:52AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @10:52AM (#504766)

    Except one of them is science fact and the other is bullshit? Nothing wasted.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:55PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @01:55PM (#504839)

    Insightful faggotry?

    There are but two genders. Anything else is to damned queer even for queers to touch.

  • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday May 05 2017, @07:34PM

    by mhajicek (51) on Friday May 05 2017, @07:34PM (#505101)

    We don't

    --
    The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:21PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 05 2017, @09:21PM (#505161)

    Rather than cutting out such content, it seems like it would have been an opportunity to discuss both how the social construct called "gender" has changed

    Watch the video clip embedded at the top of the article. Its like 3 minutes long It literally never uses the word gender.
    All it does is repeat the same old XX/XY girl/boy dichotomy lesson everybody got in 4th grade science class.
    The only people worked up over this are those who stopped learning any science after 4th grade.

  • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Beryllium Sphere (r) on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:48AM (1 child)

    by Beryllium Sphere (r) (5062) on Saturday May 06 2017, @04:48AM (#505328)

    What has totally fascinated me as I've read up on the subject is that there is strong evidence of biology behind what trans people and researchers call "gender identity".

    The evidence has been building up over the last 20 years, so any 1990s lecture needs to be revisited.

    The evidence includes more than one research team autopsying transgender people and finding sexually dimorphic brain regions that matched the deceased's self-reported gender. No, hormone treatment doesn't account for it, they checked.

    Brains are biological, and a trans woman with a female-style hypothalamus and a male-style swimsuit zone could be called biologically female.

    I walk away when people start arguing what's "gender" and what's "sex". Different specialties make the split different ways and frankly I think the argument is useless.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @09:40AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 06 2017, @09:40AM (#505373)

      Brains are biological, and a trans woman with a female-style hypothalamus and a male-style swimsuit zone could be called biologically female.

      Y chromosome disagrees and it is not currently possible to change this. One day we may be able to transfer conciousness to a cloned host with rewritten genetics.

      I walk away when people start arguing what's "gender" and what's "sex". Different specialties make the split different ways and frankly I think the argument is useless.

      There can be no argument, these are the facts.