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At the start of my teaching career, when I was fresh out of graduate school, I briefly considered trying to pass myself off as a cool professor. Luckily, I soon came to my senses and embraced my true identity as a young fogey.
After one too many students called me by my first name and sent me email that resembled a drunken late-night Facebook post, I took a very fogeyish step. I began attaching a page on etiquette to every syllabus: basic rules for how to address teachers and write polite, grammatically correct emails.
Over the past decade or two, college students have become far more casual in their interactions with faculty members. My colleagues around the country grumble about students' sloppy emails and blithe informality.
[...] Sociologists who surveyed undergraduate syllabuses from 2004 and 2010 found that in 2004, 14 percent addressed issues related to classroom etiquette; six years later, that number had more than doubled, to 33 percent. This phenomenon crosses socio-economic lines. My colleagues at Stanford gripe as much as the ones who teach at state schools, and students from more privileged backgrounds are often the worst offenders.
-- submitted from IRC
Source: The New York Times
(Score: 0, Flamebait) by i286NiNJA on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:20PM (36 children)
Uberspoiled elites don't feel any need to conform.
Old people instinctively demand conformity from young people in order to preserve society through the generations. Also because they did it. Also for the pleasure of kicking around some helpless young person who lacks any ability to retaliate.
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
They've catastrophically fucked up the entire planet.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DECbot on Tuesday May 16 2017, @04:48PM (11 children)
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
This ^^^
It's not just the environment, they also fuck up the economy, education, social stability, traditions, culture, and so much more. While I think informal emails and messages to your professor is a move in the wrong direction, the boomers and X'ers should accept this is a consequence of throwing out the traditions and formality that the older generations respected. If you don't personally adhere to tradition and formality, then why do you expect it from anyone else? If you are not respectful with your clients or even at the grocery store, then why do you think you're entitled to it?
From the young Millennials' point of view, their early education was fuck up, the secondary education is rigged to put them in stupid amounts of debt, the job market is broken, car ownership is a means to keep them in debt, news is warped in both directions, the economy is rigged to explode in the failed sense, religion is nothing more than another control mechanism for the weak minded, social media is out to sell them as a product, government debt is designed to be a problem during the prime of their life, home ownership is not realistic, the environment is catastrophically ruined, the classes and races of our society are primed to start killing each other, and the government is a deranged circus that is either there to oppress them or to oppress the entitled--or both. Unless you're set to profit from the collapse of western society, which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?
cats~$ sudo chown -R us /home/base
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Soylentbob on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:07PM (3 children)
I assume nearly every generation says that about their predecessors (... started the war, ... were all Nazis, ... committed atrocities in Vietnam, ... killed the US-Natives, ...). Of course, they were all wrong, while we are obviously right. And our kids will be wrong as well :-)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:42PM
Of course, they were all wrong, while we are obviously right.
Which is what every generation says about their successors.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:08PM
I assume nearly every generation says that about their predecessors
The Boomers [youtube.com] certainly did [youtube.com].
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:44PM
I assume nearly^w every generation says that about their predecessors...
FTFY
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:13PM
government is a deranged circus that is either there to oppress them or to oppress the entitled
What exactly is the method of oppressing the entitled? forcing them to pay a fair share of taxes... Nope. Not allowing them to move money offshore and not pay any taxes on what they make in the U.S.?... Nope. Making sure they get treated poorly by the justice system?... Nope. Not allowing them to form monopolies or cartels that outright steal from and abuse the citizenry?... Nope. Not allowing them to outright buy politicians or in fact make those purchases a functional part of our "Democracry"?... very much Nope!
What is this oppression you speak of?
(although deranged circus is a very apt description of our government. What I don't understand is when I watch a White House press conference, I do not see jugglers and clowns roaming around the room. I keep expecting that every time I see a news clip and I'm constantly disappointed. I really wish I was joking.)
(Score: 5, Insightful) by NotSanguine on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:05PM (2 children)
which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?
Nothing. It's about poiiteness in civil engagement and discourse.
Politeness and etiquette are all about greasing the wheels of society.
Civil discourse has hit, if not historic lows, then close to it.
This is reflected almost everywhere, so it's not surprising that it's in post-secondary educational environments.
I think that, in part, it's due to communications moving towards the least common denominator.
At one time, only the wealthy and the clergy were literate.
After he printing press and Gutenberg type were invented, more folks could afford books, making literacy more useful. Over time, that led to significantly higher literacy rates, and in some ways drove the growth of enlightenment thinking, individual rights, and the incredible scientific and economic expansions of the past few centuries.
Until fairly recently (the last twenty or so years), widespread publishing of one's thoughts were still gated by book, magazine and newspaper publishers, as well as TV producers. Say what you want about those folks, but as a whole, their influence (perhaps not the TV people) maintained a certain level of discourse in the broad public discourse.
Up until recently, only those with both the will and the means could participate in that broad public discourse. Whether it be a letter to the editor of your local newspaper, or the time and resources to write a book, article or fund a movie/television piece.
With the explosion of cable TV channels, the rise of easy to create websites, blogging platforms, social media and other mechanisms for individuals to make their thoughts (however dotty or banal [azquotes.com]) known to the world, the quality of the broad public discourse has suffered.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. More folks having the ability to weigh in in important events of the day is probably a good thing. Where once the majority of us saw only the discourse promulgated by those with knowledge, means and motivation, now we see what used to mostly be discussed at the bar or around the water cooler.
One of the consequences, however, is that the quality of the language, logic and level of civility has dropped significantly.
Another consequence is that those with knowledge, experience and expertise are being dismissed as not knowing any better than anyone else. Which is patently false.
Giving more people the ability to communicate in the public sphere is, on the whole, a good thing.
However, this results in more casual, dismissive and impolite attitudes towards others. More's the pity
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by deadstick on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:07PM
TL;DR -- The Internet is today's restroom wall.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:25PM
Obviously there's a need for efficient filtering based on personal preferences.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:16PM (1 child)
From the young Millennials' point of view
Why are you talking about Millennials here? This story is about college students. The Millennial generation is all out of college now; they're around 30 years old and having kids now. The college kids are the next generation after them.
Please try to keep up.
(Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Wednesday May 17 2017, @09:25AM
Actually, the Millennial generation is currently defined as being 20-36 years old, give or take approx. 2 years in either direction. Then again, they're also supposedly all the offspring of Baby Boomers, in spite of how old the youngest Boomers would've been by 1997, and Gen X is supposedly uniformly the offspring of the Silent Generation...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by r_a_trip on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:06AM
***Unless you're set to profit from the collapse of western society, which of the previous listed achievements should command the Millennials' respect?***
It is not about giving respect to people. It is about maintaining good form, so that the people who can negatively influence the course of your life, are not given a reason to do so. Courtesy and formal address go a long way to make sure you don't end up at the bottom of the pile.
Don't sputter that acting in that way is unfair, because guess what, nobody who matters cares. Those in power can equally use it or abuse it, mostly with impunity. You are dealing with humans. Humans are irrational and emotional critters. We simply do more for people who make us feel good about ourselves.
Go ahead. Piss off the people who in part decide on your advancement in life. See if that gets you what you want. My guess is that the people who do use formal address and who are inclined to communicate professionally will have it easier than the ones not adhering to formal standards.
(Score: 2) by frojack on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:32PM (9 children)
This generation's of old people have a lot of gall demanding any respect from younger people just cause.
Since this generation of college professors are more intent on spreading their political agenda than actually teaching, I guess I'd have to agree with you.
No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:07PM (3 children)
Ah, but my dear and fluffy frojack, how could you possibly tell the difference between a political agenda and the Arts, Sciences, and Humanities? It is bad enough that you cannot address your superiors with the proper decorum, but to remain so ignorant and confused at an institution of Higher Learning, this is truly deplorable.
This is why we cannot have Republicans on campus. All they want to do is treat everything as if it was politics, a matter of opinion, and so they do not study and learn. And the only contribution they make is to invite the occasional controversy, like an Ann, or a Milo, or a Barry (Goldwater). If only they could learn some manners, and intellectual integrity, and political correctness.
(Score: 5, Funny) by melikamp on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:15PM (2 children)
(Score: 3, Interesting) by DeathMonkey on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:27AM (1 child)
Thus we learn the source of Aristarchus' angst towards Republicans. A surprising percentage of them still giving him crap over his central thesis. [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Wednesday May 17 2017, @05:39AM
Angst? Is not that a German thing? We Greeks don't do "angst". However, the goat song, the τραγῳδία, [wikipedia.org] is very much a part of Greek culture, from ancient times and even into the present. And what, you may ask, is the essence of tragedy? Oh, it is usually the consequence of hubris, [wikipedia.org] ὕβρις, overweening pride, excessive confidence, certainty of one's beliefs, all things Republicans are guilty of.
The point of tragedy is when the protagonist realizes that it is exactly his cleverness, his total grasp of Ayn Rand, of Von Mises, that precisely brings about the downfall of all that they believe in, that they are the means by which evil manifests itself on earth. And there is nothing they can do to take it back, or make it right, Donald is still the President, and it is all their fault.
They are, of course, not the only ones. But still, anyone who today, with all the evidence and data and confirmation, can dare to assert that Global Warming is not real, that the Earth is flat, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, these people are not just Republicans, they are idiots. Now it used to be true, as the philosopher and employee of the East India Company, John Stuart Mill, used to put it, that will not all conservatives are stupid, it is true that all stupid people are conservative. But this has proven to be unfounded optimism. Now if you are a conservative, you must believe stupid things, young earth creationism, Climate-change denial. Vaccines cause disease!, tax cuts result in increased tax revenue! And that khallow is a sane individual. See? Angst? No. Just fear that the world will end in stupidity rather than enlightenment. If only I had not lost my faith in Mithra. He's coming back, you know. As a Bull. Bull Durham. Hook you, if you're not watching!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by kaszz on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:09PM
Seems to be mostly non-STEM departments doing that stuff.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Tuesday May 16 2017, @09:44PM
> Since this generation of college professors are more intent on spreading their political agenda than actually teaching
They spread their political agenda by letting some grad student teach?
Professors are clearly more intent doing some kind of grant-related activity. Is teaching a grant-related activity? Must not be, or we'd see actual professors teaching, a whole 3 hours a week.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Thexalon on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:38PM (2 children)
For what it's worth: I attended and graduated from a college that is routinely and justifiably cited as a hotbed of liberalism, not all that long ago. But my professors left their political views largely outside of the classroom. In most cases, I didn't even know what their political views were. That's because politics has no effect on linear algebra, database design, music theory, or many other subjects I studied heavily. History, gender studies, and economics got more political, but I have it on good authority (the head of the Young Republicans on campus, who was fairly friendly with me) that conservative ideas were not being rejected out of turn nor became cause for discrimination. The only on-campus speaker I saw anybody try (unsuccessfully) to silence was Bill Clinton's treasury secretary, Larry Summers, and conservative voices like Arthur Laffer were able to speak without incident. There was an ingrained understanding of how to handle speakers whose views you found distasteful: Let them give their speech, then do your best to pillory them in the Q&A section.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:08PM (1 child)
There was an ingrained understanding of how to handle speakers whose views you found distasteful: Let them give their speech, then do your best to pillory them in the Q&A section.
Quite right too. And also the reason why Theresa May isn't meeting any voters and will not take part in a televised debate with the other party leaders: she can't think on her feet. When someone is feeding her lines or she's reading off a script, she's fine; as soon as she's required to "do politics" - convincing people via persuasion and rhetoric - she fails badly.
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:28PM
But is she a capable person to run the country? ie competent and with the right virtues?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:34PM (9 children)
Fuck you, you whiney, entitled, millennial, bitch.
I'll tell you what I did-I went to a school that I could afford and that would give me a degree I could actually use.
I busted my ass my whole life to make a better life for my family and me.
When I hire you and you write me an email like that, you will be out on the street before you can say, "But, everyone is special."
Better that you learn how to behave like a professional while you are in college than wondering why I canned your ass.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @06:23PM (7 children)
lol! Er, I mean, surely you jest, sir!
I'll tell you what I did-I went to a school that I could afford
Now you have a problem. If you want me to give a shit about what you just wrote, tell me why college costs four times as much these days and why wages have been stagnant with decreasing upward mobility since you went.
No, on second thought, don't bother, because you can't. You're just going to write "blablablabla HARD WORK blablablablabla."
It's time we end social security. Right now. End it. I am tired of forking over my paycheck to support your ass.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:15PM (6 children)
Keep crying little whiner.
I paid social security all my life to take care of those who aged out before me. I'm not complaining. The thought that I'd be relying on SS is just another example of your entitled attitude, bitch. If we get rid of SS now, who's going to take care of your old ass? Mine is already taken care of.
Newsflash and shock for you... I saved my money too. I didn't buy the latest video game or phone (course, they weren't invented yet). I didn't waste my money on expensive cars or other shit I didn't need. I worked every summer and every weekend and holiday when I was in college. You should try some real work. It was good for me to see exactly why I was going to college.
College cost more today than it did when I was in school. Aw too bad. So do a lot of other things. Does the world owe you a degree? I'll help you with this one because you don't get it - NO. I went to a public university and lived at home. I never found the time or reason to complain about that. It's what I could afford, I made the best of it. I didn't get to go to RPI or Cal Tech because I couldn't afford it. When you realize that you are working now, sacrificing now for something in your future, rather than instant gratification, you will understand. When you have your own kids and are putting them through school, you can look back on the good decisions you made. Welcome to the real world, it's actually pretty nice here. All that you did all those years ago, now paying off. (Except the little detail that the real world doesn't owe you a damn thing.)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:45PM
Of course, you got yours so screw everyone else. The public university you attended was far more highly subsidized than public universities today. I'm near retirement and went to a public univeristy so this is true for me as well. You didn't do it on your own to the extent you want to believe.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @08:58PM (3 children)
Typical entitled "I got mine so screw you" jerk.
Your public university education (and mine for that matter) was far more highly subsidized by someone else's taxes than is true today. It wasn't your undeserved smug moral superiority that got you through college - it was someone else paying for the majority of it in a way that is no longer the case.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @12:48PM (2 children)
Typical claim from whiney bitches.(both parent posts) You haven't done a damn thing on your own and so no one else could have. Now you are going to tell me the world just handed it to me. Think again.
I worked for mine every god damned day. Mommy and daddy didn't pay for my education, I did. It cost less, was there a bigger % subsidy? I don't know, prove it. It cost less, I don't disagree with that. Maybe you missed that.
You also missed the part about sacrifice and living the Spartan life - no spring breaks in Fla, lived at home, and either did school work or hourly wage work 100% of my time starting in high school. Worked two jobs for a while. Yea, I got mine and you can try to diminish it all you want. College cost is only part of it. I drove a 10 year old beater that had 100,000 miles on it when I got it and I fixed myself for 10 years. I paid for my own wedding. I paid SS starting in high school too. Do you know what "doubling back" is? No, you have no clue. I'll tell you what it is. It's when you work a shift and then take only one shift off and then come back to work the next shift. In my case, worked Friday from 3 PM to 11 PM and then back on Sat morning at 7 AM to work till 3 (or usually 7) and then back to work on Sunday (often slept in my car since it got me more sleep). That's how I spent my weekends for 4 years. I worked second or third shift every frigging summer. That's the attitude that helped me "get mine". Now tell me how it was just handed to me. Tell me how much you worked in high school? How much during college? Living at home? Yea, I lived at home and paid a little rent too. You will never, ever understand.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:53PM (1 child)
Cool story bro. Your inability to pick up better jobs that paid more in college still makes the comment that you were replying to no less true.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:42PM
I love how his sob story is like half of what kids have to go through to get ahead now.
Man these old guys and their entitlement. "OH MAN I HAD TO WORK IN A KITCHEN FOR AWHILE YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT'S LIKE". Oh man it's rich. I'm fucking dying. "I DIDN'T GET TO FUCK GIRLS ON SPRING BREAK YOU KIDS TODAY DON'T KNOW!"
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:38PM
You made all those sacrifices and all you got to do is retire?
Lol you're a loser too. God I may have slept in a tent but at least I'm rich now. Why is it these fuckers are always so proud of getting pounded in the ass with nothing to show? Well enjoy spending my social security.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Wednesday May 17 2017, @04:20PM
Your generation broke the american compact after living through the most comfortable existence non-elites have enjoyed in the history of humanity and now you ridicule the people you've fucked over. Please save me your bullshit I was half deaf and had developed a limp in the military around the time you were probably buying your first home then I finished my CS degree early despite living in a tent for awhile in college. I don't blame any of these kids for sitting around their parent's homes smoking weed it's exactly what their parents deserve.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @05:45PM
Insisting on traditional etiquette is also simply good pedagogy. It’s a teacher’s job to correct sloppy prose, whether in an essay or an email. And I suspect that most of the time, students who call faculty members by their first names and send slangy messages are not seeking a more casual rapport. They just don’t know they should do otherwise — no one has bothered to explain it to them. Explaining the rules of professional interaction is not an act of condescension; it’s the first step in treating students like adults.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday May 16 2017, @07:28PM (1 child)
Young grasshopper, my generation told their parents exactly what you tell us. Picking left vs right is just picking one side of the real agenda. But you'll learn.
(Score: 2, Interesting) by anubi on Wednesday May 17 2017, @10:19AM
I'm going on 66 now... this brings back many memories of how I felt when I was a teenager.
I was really pissed. Everyone else seemed to be pissed too. My history is littered with all sorts of civil disobedience of my peers.
Vietnam war. Draft. Having to be obedient to damn near everything. Drugs all over the place. Many of my friends checking out.
Go back and look at that stuff that fomented the protest music of the 60's.
My heart is with you guys.... We tried our best to change the world... to make things better. In some cases we did. However we have let a lot of stuff slip through the cracks and make one helluva mess. I know I won't be around for all that much longer. Just pure statistics. I know how long dad lived. My guess is I will last about the same.
If anything, please work on this mess about how we have our tax codes set up so we use our resources productively and quit funding the havers for hoarding. Make sure people like Elon Musk have the resources they need and not tax the shit out of them in the melee. We had Carnegie and Ford, who made a huge difference in our living standard as a public. You guys have people which will make a difference too. Really useful people are not unique to one generation. But we also have useless bags of shit which just hoard and provide nothing. Go after them with a vengeance. You have my blessing ( as if you needed it. ).
We, like you, had high hopes and frustrations. Soon, you will have the reins, and we will have our granite markers, well some of us. I won't. I'd rather anything I have go to my nephews, not to some ceremonial fluff.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by fido_dogstoyevsky on Tuesday May 16 2017, @10:40PM
They've [the older generation] catastrophically fucked up the entire planet.
By bringing so many younger people into the world.
Not JUST a smart alec answer, but a comment on the general lack of understanding of population pressure on the world.
It's NOT a conspiracy... it's a plot.