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posted by cmn32480 on Wednesday June 07 2017, @09:03PM   Printer-friendly
from the be-nice-or-I'm-gonna-cry dept.

El Reg has an interesting read on an OSS developers survey:

Most of the negative behaviour is explained as "rudeness", which has been experienced witnessed by 45 per cent of participants and experienced by 16 per cent. GitHub's summary of the survey says really nasty stuff like "sexual advances, stalking, or doxxing are each encountered by less than five per cent of respondents and experienced by less than two per cent (but cumulatively witnessed by 14%, and experienced by three per cent)." Twenty five per cent of women respondents reported experiencing "language or content that makes them feel unwelcome", compared to 15 per cent of men.

This stuff has consequences: 21 per cent of those who see negative behaviour bail from projects they were working on.

Now I take an entirely different conclusion than El Reg on this. To me this says that two or three percent of respondents have valid reason to bitch about bad behavior but a further eighteen or nineteen percent above that simply are not capable of working with other people. Come on, who here has never held a job where someone on staff was a dickhead/bitch but you kept on working anyway? Me, I've not once held a job where there were zero personality conflicts. In my less than humble opinion, part of being an adult is being able to deal professionally or at least civilly with other human beings who do not cater to your every sensitivity.

Maybe I'm just a relic of the past though. Maybe the future really is a bunch of snowflakes crying to $boss to get you fired if you say or do anything they dislike.


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  • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:01PM (28 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:01PM (#522279) Homepage Journal

    It's a sound line of reasoning, I'll grant you. It just has been the exact opposite of the truth in my experience. Projects die far more quickly and pitifully when project maintainers start being social referees instead of code referees. YMMV of course.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
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  • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:28PM (27 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:28PM (#522306)

    Projects die far more quickly and pitifully when project maintainers start being social referees instead of code referees.

    No duh. If it gets to the point of the maintainer having to be a referee that's because the situation has become so toxic that the project is already gravely wounded.

    Your delusions of persecution not withstanding, nobody wants to play referee, its something that gets forced on them by sociopaths who think social norms don't apply to them.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:49PM (25 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Wednesday June 07 2017, @11:49PM (#522323) Homepage Journal

      No, it gets forced upon them by loudmouthed snowflakes. Adults are simply capable of working with difficult people as long as they have value to the project and rarely need social-managing.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 08 2017, @12:20AM (21 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 08 2017, @12:20AM (#522339)

        So everyone else should suffer and let assholes be assholes? We're all legally adults so social feedback is no longer allowed? You live on another planet apparently. Computers bred a certain attitude, the lone nerd that manages the tech and looks down on others with disdain because they don't have the same expertise. The ability to treat others like crap because there was no accountability. Anonymity of internet forums bred a certain type of "locker room" talk that is frankly disgusting.

        Now tech has gone mainstream and like it or not social norms are back in play. You can still be an asshole but now you can expect to pay for it. People won't want to hire you, people won't want to work with you. Friends that get a glimpse of your nasty side will distance themselves.

        But hey, circle jerk away in discussions like this, try to convince yourself that it is just persecution by sensitive snowflakes instead of the real world finally catching up to the tech crowd. What I'm hearing is special snowflakes not wanting to be called out and using weasel words like "be an adult and deal with it" to escape responsibility for shitty behavior. Pull that crap in any other job and you'll be shown the door pretty quickly.

        For all the problems with PC culture I wouldn't revert back to the earlier days of inequality for anything. Its about time old codgers got called out for their nasty shit, and time to let new codgers know its not ok. Hey its a free country, go contract, go start your own business, no one forces you to work with people you don't like. Or y'know, you could grow up and act like an adult who can manage basic decency and respect for others.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 08 2017, @12:37AM (20 children)

          You really need to get out in the real world and get a job. I guarantee you, you will work with or for an asshole and if you can't manage to deal with it, your ass will be the ass that is fired.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Thursday June 08 2017, @02:45AM (1 child)

            by jmorris (4844) on Thursday June 08 2017, @02:45AM (#522402)

            But that is exactly why they funded this study. To prove the need for more CoCs, more Women in $whatever inititives and make the world perfectly safe for every delicate snowflake to feel fulfilled and brimming over with self confidence as they beaver away pointlessly on projects going nowhere because everyone competent will have went elsewhere. It is that last part they can't comprehend. And not enough of us can comprehend the problem so we can't yet perfect a snowflake defense good enough to prevent entryism; so we must accept periodic destruction of any institution we build. So I guess until we do come up with a defense it means making sure any institution is the absolute minimum required to allow productive work to happen so there isn't much to lose and to make sure the institution can't lock up any of the useful bits. In the Open Source world that is a perfectly viable model, one which should be adopted, not sure how that scales to capital intensive industries though.

          • (Score: 2) by sjames on Thursday June 08 2017, @04:38PM (16 children)

            by sjames (2882) on Thursday June 08 2017, @04:38PM (#522659) Journal

            The assholes are just their own special breed of snowflake who imagine themselves too important to bother with even basic decency.

            The ones on the asshole pole of snowflakedom need to STFU just as much as the others. We don't need to micro-manage the whole thing by spending more time on language lawyering a code of conduct than we do on productive coding, but likewise we shouldn't just let the assholes run wild.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 09 2017, @12:16AM (15 children)

              Never said we should. Anyone doing more harm than they bring to the table needs to get the boot. That sometimes includes assholes but always covers every last snowflake.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday June 09 2017, @05:48AM (14 children)

                by sjames (2882) on Friday June 09 2017, @05:48AM (#522945) Journal

                Asshole = snowflake.

                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 09 2017, @10:04AM (13 children)

                  Yeah, fraid not. Assholes can be productive members of a team, snowflakes can only destroy what once worked.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday June 09 2017, @02:43PM (12 children)

                    by sjames (2882) on Friday June 09 2017, @02:43PM (#523088) Journal

                    Not really. An asshole is just a special snowflake that thinks the rules for social interaction don't apply to him/her because of some special talent or another. Some are such special snowflakes that they think they shouldn't be considered a special snowflake.

                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday June 09 2017, @05:06PM (11 children)

                      Still wrong. I've met a few assholes who can't deal with anyone disagreeing with them on anything but they are in an extremely small minority. Gruff and brash types tend to be able to deal with gruff and brash being sent their general direction.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 2) by sjames on Friday June 09 2017, @09:18PM (10 children)

                        by sjames (2882) on Friday June 09 2017, @09:18PM (#523268) Journal

                        Doesn't matter, they still think they don't have to behave in a civil manner like everyone else because they're ever so *SPECIAL*.

                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 10 2017, @10:09AM (9 children)

                          No, darlin, they simply think that behavior is acceptable. And it is, though annoying, unless you're a snowflake.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                          • (Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday June 10 2017, @05:28PM (8 children)

                            by sjames (2882) on Saturday June 10 2017, @05:28PM (#523522) Journal

                            If you want to set up a safe space for assholes and spend time fetching their binkies and powdering their little tushies, that's your business. The rest of us managed to retain what we learned in preschool and apply it most of the time, as is expected of adults. I can deal fine if someone is having a bad day, but if every day is a bad day, I'm not their mommy.

                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday June 10 2017, @10:26PM (7 children)

                              Safe space? No. No interest in those. I'm simply pointing out that snowflakes destroy everything they touch. Every. Single. Time.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                              • (Score: 2) by sjames on Saturday June 10 2017, @10:41PM (6 children)

                                by sjames (2882) on Saturday June 10 2017, @10:41PM (#523615) Journal

                                And I'm saying assholes are just another variety of snowflake looking for a safe space. I can't imagine why you'd make an extra special snowflake exception for them, but it's not my problem.

                                • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 11 2017, @12:26AM (5 children)

                                  And I'm saying assholes are just another variety of snowflake looking for a safe space.

                                  Yes, and you're saying it because you need to believe it since otherwise people you hate are right and you are simply wrong. You've made no argument to support your claim, you just keep restating it even in the face of refutation. That's not how debate works if you want to win I'm afraid. That is in fact a recipe for losing a debate.

                                  --
                                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                  • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday June 11 2017, @07:09AM (4 children)

                                    by sjames (2882) on Sunday June 11 2017, @07:09AM (#523717) Journal

                                    Actually, I have but you avoided absorbing it since you for some reason actually seem to like assholes but can't bear to believe you ever met a snowflake you liked.

                                    Very simply, the asshole believes that they are somehow so special that they need not obey any of the rules for social interaction the rest of us learned in preschool and kindergarten. At the same time, they believe they should not suffer the natural consequences such as being shunned or at least shunted off to a broom closet in a 1 man department that nobody ever has call to communicate with, or just fired for failure to work well with others, punched in the nose, etc.

                                    That sure sounds special snowflaky (and defective) to me.

                                    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 11 2017, @10:26AM (3 children)

                                      Very simply, the asshole believes that they are somehow so special that they need not obey any of the rules for social interaction the rest of us learned in preschool and kindergarten.

                                      Those rules were for kindergarten. You were supposed to learn the adult rules as you grew up. And you were supposed to grow up. Simply put, there are no hard social rules as an adult. There is only what the people you socialize and work with will tolerate and that varies extremely widely based on setting, as it should. You snowflakes want it to not. You want kindergarten rules for adults in all situations. More specifically you want your version of kindergarten rules.

                                      That sure sounds special snowflaky (and defective) to me.

                                      It would to you, snowflake. That's a hallmark trait of snowflakes: being intolerant fascists.

                                      --
                                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                      • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday June 11 2017, @02:37PM (2 children)

                                        by sjames (2882) on Sunday June 11 2017, @02:37PM (#523821) Journal

                                        AH, now I understand the blind spot, you're standing in it! No, those rules were NOT meant to expire. Sure, as we get older we are expected to better understand the nuances and the spirit rather than the letter of those rules, but the basic consideration and respect for others is not optional and YOU are not an exception either. You simply aren't all that! Nobody is.

                                        It's not just a coincidence we name the people who forget those rules after the part of our anatomy shit comes out of.

                                        It's on the opposite end of the spectrum from those who demand to be wrapped in cotton and insist we all psychically know that weasels eating fava beans is a sore spot for them, but it's all connected.

                                        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Sunday June 11 2017, @02:58PM (1 child)

                                          No, those rules were NOT meant to expire

                                          Yes, my "let's all hug it out" friend, they were. There are no rules for adults. There is only what you can get away with and what you can not. Only your subjective value in the situation determines that.

                                          Since we're going back to kindergarten though, allow me to reply thus: You are not the boss of me. You do not get to decide what the rules of society are. The majority gets to do that and your snowflake ass is just going to have to deal with it. There are a hell of a lot more of us than there are of you and we hold all the power, because any group you join you destroy.

                                          If you want my ability to act as I see fit, molon labe. We are not snowflakes. We do not fear you. We will win.

                                          --
                                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                                          • (Score: 2) by sjames on Sunday June 11 2017, @05:04PM

                                            by sjames (2882) on Sunday June 11 2017, @05:04PM (#523870) Journal

                                            So like if someone is an asshole to me, it's like totally cool if I put cyanide in their coffee? COOLNESS! We can solve the asshole problem in under a year!

                                            Or did you really mean you're a special snowflake who only follows the rules he likes?

                                            If you really think the ideal society includes people spraying shit on each other, there are probably fetish groups for that. Why you want to regress to chimpanzee is beyond me though. I guess the rest of us will just have to toss a few golden apples around until you guys predictably kill each other.

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday June 08 2017, @05:19PM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday June 08 2017, @05:19PM (#522685)

            I've been working highly-paid corporate jobs now for almost 20 years. I don't know what kind of shitholes you've worked in, but in all the places I've worked, bad behavior (i.e. racist or misogynistic remarks, harassment, overt insults, bullying, etc.) would get you written up or fired. I've honestly never seen such behavior in an overt way anyplace I've worked. Of course, sometimes people have their little snits or minor arguments, or make comments about coworkers when they're out of earshot (like complaining about their alleged lack of competence), but I'm talking about seriously bad behavior--it doesn't fly in corporate environments.

      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 08 2017, @02:51AM (2 children)

        by Gaaark (41) on Thursday June 08 2017, @02:51AM (#522404) Journal

        That's what I look for: value. If they are a plus, I can work with that and even try to behaviourally modify them to be an even bigger plus (one guy I even wanted to marry my daughter, lol. He was bloody well like my right hand).

        If they are a negative, I usually just basically ignore them because I know they won't be around long.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday June 08 2017, @10:00AM (1 child)

          Yup. To the boss it's all about relative value. And let's be clear that whiners are as big a negative as backstabbing bitches or acerbic assholes. Bigger if you otherwise only employ adults because they bring down morale even with people who wear big-girl panties.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Thursday June 08 2017, @10:18AM

            by Gaaark (41) on Thursday June 08 2017, @10:18AM (#522512) Journal

            And DRAMA Queens.

            Big ol' DRAMA, DRAMA Queens.

            --
            --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
    • (Score: 1) by Arik on Thursday June 08 2017, @01:32AM

      by Arik (4543) on Thursday June 08 2017, @01:32AM (#522375) Journal
      "Your delusions of persecution not withstanding, nobody wants to play referee, its something that gets forced on them by sociopaths who think social norms don't apply to them."

      Now I don't think I know you, Anon, but that line sounds mighty familiar.

      Makes me think maybe the problems you have experienced have more to do with YOU being the sort of asshole that thinks it's his job to decide what 'social norms' apply in every situation and to get offended if they are violated.

      The internet is not a social thing, and a Free Software Project is not a social group - quite to the contrary, they're about building useful things, they are polar opposites.
      --
      If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?