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posted by n1 on Wednesday June 21 2017, @12:37PM   Printer-friendly
from the thousands-of-hamsters-in-wheels dept.

When I wrote about Tesla's rapid expansion of its supercharger network, I was equally surprised by the extent of its less publicly touted network of "destination chargers"—slower, "Level 2" chargers that it is distributing to hotels, malls, restaurants and other locations so folks can charge while they shop/eat/sleep, and thus relieve some pressure from the faster superchargers which folks use for longer distance road tripping.

It got me thinking about another network of charging infrastructure which folks often don't talk about: The Level 2 chargers which most of us electric vehicle drivers install in our homes and—sometimes—places of business. These chargers don't just enable our own electrified driving, but they also provide some peace of mind to any friends and relatives who may consider driving electric, and who can now be sure of a charge if they come for a visit.

In fact, I've noticed several private charging station owners—especially businesses—in my region are publicly listing their charging stations on the various apps that are available for locating charging spots. Interestingly, this isn't just limited to restaurants or shops offering charging as a perk for your business: We have real estate companies and industrial operations simply offering up their charge points as a free service to the electric vehicle community. (Often, they'll stipulate—quite reasonably—that their own vehicles get first dibs.)

Is a network of free- or metered Tier 2 charging stations the solution to EV range anxiety?


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  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:07PM (26 children)

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:07PM (#529020) Journal

    The big obstacle is battery tech, not charging stations. Have to be able to recharge faster or less often, preferably both. The biggest shortcoming is the inability to sustain near continuous operation. A recharge time of an hour for an hour of driving, which is what many electric cars require, rules out more than road trips. Car manufacturers are coy about the exact numbers, had to dig a little on the Nissan site to learn that on the home charger the 2017 Leaf takes 6 hours to fully recharge, and its range is 107 miles. They didn't say how long recharging takes at a charging station, probably don't want to admit it still takes an hour or more. That's unsuitable for taxi and delivery service, and many other business uses.

    A short battery life is another problem. Less than 1000 recharge cycles? Could blow through that in 3 years just recharging once per day. The batteries degrade over time even if not used? And then, costs 1/3 the price of the car when new, to replace the battery pack?

    On a side note, one thing I find puzzling and annoying is the way car makers do marketing. Their websites are full of "market speak", fluffy advertising copy, and short on technical details, for all their cars, not just electrics. They're always trying to emphasize how much fun driving is, and what a status symbol a shiny new car is, and gloss over the specs as if that's secondary, very very secondary. Perhaps there's lots more fudging and lying out there than VW's numbers on their diesels?

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  • (Score: 2) by driverless on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:48PM

    by driverless (4770) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:48PM (#529042)

    The big obstacle is too many EVs competing for too few chargers. We've solved that with our Ultracharger, a battery of Marx generators connected to what looks like a standard Level 2 charger. When one of those yuppie Tesla owners pulls up to one of our special charging stations, they get a lot more charge than they were expecting.

    PS: I work for General Motors.

  • (Score: 3, Disagree) by PiMuNu on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:52PM (19 children)

    by PiMuNu (3823) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @02:52PM (#529045)

    > 2017 Leaf takes 6 hours to fully recharge, and its range is 107 miles.
    > Less than 1000 recharge cycles?

    Well, thats 100,000 miles - which is the typical lifetime of a modern car.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by EvilSS on Wednesday June 21 2017, @03:34PM (12 children)

      by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 21 2017, @03:34PM (#529059)
      Huh? 100,000 miles is far from the typical lifetime of a modern car. My last two cars hit 100K without any major servicing or repairs, just normal maintenance. If you are the "drive it till it dies" type you can get 200K-300K out of almost any recently built car with little effort. Sure, people may trade-in around that mileage, but that's not the lifetime of the vehicle by a long shot.
      • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:23PM (1 child)

        by bzipitidoo (4388) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:23PM (#529082) Journal

        Yes, 100k miles is miraculous for 1970s and older cars, before Japanese competition forced American car makers to improve. Now, it's no big deal.

        You're not going to run the battery pack down to just 7 miles left, every single time, no, you're going to top up frequently, all the more frequently because its range is so short. I don't know how many recharge cycles the Leaf has (why isn't Nissan up front with that info?!?), but less than 1000 can easily mean battery failure in just 50,000 miles. What Nissan does say is that they provide a warranty of 100,000 miles or 8 years, whichever is first, on the batteries, so I'd guess the batteries are good for much more than 1000 charge cycles. However, warranties can be slippery-- I've seen LG's warranties rendered worthless by all their conditions, like that the warranty covers only the cost of parts, not labor, which just happens to be inflated at the only businesses LG approves for service work.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:42AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:42AM (#529337)

          > before Japanese competition forced American car makers to improve.

          An additional incentive came from smog regulations which now require cars to meet emissions standards for some large number of miles, with no service (have forgotten, maybe 75K miles?) This has given us stainless (or other non-rusting) exhaust systems, including catalyst housings. And possibly other improvements in service life.

          In the NE USA with plenty of salt on winter roads, my 1992 Toyota needed at least some part of the exhaust system replaced every 2-3 years (I kept it 20 years). The dealer offered a lifetime warranty on the first replacements and it was a hell of a deal, I got about 4 more complete exhaust systems before that dealer sold out (the new owner only honored that warranty one time).

          My GF's 2003 Toyota (with stainless components) has needed no exhaust service since new, so 14 years already.

      • (Score: 3, Touché) by Grishnakh on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:13PM (9 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:13PM (#529119)

        Huh? 100,000 miles is far from the typical lifetime of a modern car. My last two cars hit 100K without any major servicing or repairs, just normal maintenance.

        I see this kind of thing on the internet regularly. Someone makes a comment like the OP saying that 100k is a car's lifetime, others counter with incredulism.

        My theory is the 100k people are Chrysler buyers. How often do you see Chrysler vehicles from the 1990s or even 2000s still driving around? Not much, and when you do see one, it looks like hell.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:40PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:40PM (#529131)

          Yep, when we were leaving high school my friends have Neons while I had a Civic and they insisted that they had the better cars. I still see 2000 or older Civics on the road but can't remember the last time I saw any generation of Neon still running and they got rid of theirs over a decade ago due to either being wrecked or being more expensive to maintain than to replace.

          My Honda was at 144k miles when it died in a crash. My Lexus has 149k on it and right now just needs a new front wheel bearing while I'll easily swap out myself this weekend.

        • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:26PM

          by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:26PM (#529159)
          Well Chrysler is one of the few brands I haven't owned over the years (the 100K+ cars I have owned are a Chevy and a Ford) so I can't really refute that argument.
        • (Score: 2) by tibman on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:38PM (1 child)

          by tibman (134) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:38PM (#529163)

          My Jeep Cherokee went to 190k miles before i crashed it. If i wasn't so poor at the time i could have had it fixed and kept going.

          --
          SN won't survive on lurkers alone. Write comments.
          • (Score: 3, Informative) by Nuke on Wednesday June 21 2017, @09:34PM

            by Nuke (3162) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @09:34PM (#529229)

            Mine did 270,000 until I sold it two years ago to someone still using it.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by mojo chan on Thursday June 22 2017, @08:46AM (4 children)

          by mojo chan (266) on Thursday June 22 2017, @08:46AM (#529425)

          In the UK lots of Taxi firms use Leafs. There are some with 200k miles in 3 years on them. >90% battery capacity remaining, for basically zero maintenance beyond tyres and brake pads.

          I've been driving a Leaf for a few years now. If you maintain 70 MPH you can drive for about 1.5 hours before needing to charge, which takes around 45 minutes. Other cars have even better range, e.g. the latest model Zoe is capable of over 200 miles on a charge and costs less than the Leaf (at least on paper, Nissan does massive discounts).

          Battery tech is not the problem, only cost is. Cost is coming down rapidly. Once you get to about 250-300 miles range at motorway speeds (a Tesla 100kWh battery can do that) it's basically at the limit of what a human can safely do anyway. There will always be some people who desperately need to do 8 hours straight on a regular basis, but for the vast majority it's more than adequate. To give you an idea, EU rules for commercial drivers require a 45 minute break every 4.5 hours of driving, and drivers usually split that into two 30 minute breaks every 2 to 2.5 hours. Breaks are strictly enforced - you can't do any work at all during them, not even pumping gas, so charging for half an hour regularly is no problem.

          --
          const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:38PM (3 children)

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:38PM (#529510)

            There's a big problem with your analysis: you're wrong about needing to take breaks. Drivers may need to take breaks, but vehicles do not, and in the US, long-haul trucks frequently do not, regardless of any laws about drivers needing breaks. Drivers frequently drive in 2-person teams, so that one person is sleeping or resting while the other is driving; that way the vehicle is constantly in motion instead of stopped unproductively. This isn't that uncommon in passenger cars either. So the recharge time is still a factor, just less so with cars than trucks.

            If the industry could have come up with a standard-size quick-swappable battery pack, this whole issue could have been avoided. That would bring up the issue of how do you deal with liability when a battery goes bad or is degraded (who owns it and needs to pay to fix/replace it?), but I think that's a solvable problem.

            • (Score: 2) by mojo chan on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:53PM (2 children)

              by mojo chan (266) on Thursday June 22 2017, @02:53PM (#529514)

              Seems inefficient to have two drivers per vehicle, rather than say two vehicles that have to stop regularly. That's what they do in Europe.

              --
              const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
              • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday June 22 2017, @03:34PM (1 child)

                by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday June 22 2017, @03:34PM (#529530)

                Seems inefficient to have two drivers per vehicle, rather than say two vehicles that have to stop regularly. That's what they do in Europe.

                Drivers are cheap compared to the vehicle.

                Plus, a lot of teams are married couples. You want them to stay in separate vehicles from each other?

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @04:40PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @04:40PM (#529558)

                  Might help the relationship.

    • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:07PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:07PM (#529073)

      Who modded this insightful?

      If you don't get to 200k its cause you didn't take rudimentary care of the vehicle.

    • (Score: 2) by nobu_the_bard on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:49PM (1 child)

      by nobu_the_bard (6373) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @04:49PM (#529102)

      100k? My reasonably modern car, with repairs becoming too expensive for it to remain practical to me, is at around 160k. I'd assume other people with more reliable/efficient cars than mine, or a better ability to do their own repairs, could crush that like a bug.

      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:48PM

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:48PM (#529169)

        I'll put it this way: My Prius is at 208K, and shows no signs of serious trouble. I had to put some money into it shortly after I bought it, but since then it's been a matter of regular oil changes and tire maintenance.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:10PM (1 child)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:10PM (#529116)

      Well, thats 100,000 miles - which is the typical lifetime of a modern car.

      Spotted the Chrysler buyer.

      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:49PM

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @07:49PM (#529170)

        Nah: It could have been a Ford or Chevy.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @07:54AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 22 2017, @07:54AM (#529412)

      Dude must be trolling?

      Closing in on 300k km (186k miles) on my 2002 CR-V. Only major repairs were the windshield and the A/C compressor. Did all the minor stuff (fluid changes, brake pads, rotors, ball joints, control arms, sway bar links) myself, so I have a good idea what shape it's in. Looks like it'll keep going until some moron rear ends it and totals it. Until then, bring on the snow!

  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Whoever on Wednesday June 21 2017, @03:10PM (2 children)

    by Whoever (4524) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @03:10PM (#529050) Journal

    A short battery life is another problem. Less than 1000 recharge cycles? Could blow through that in 3 years just recharging once per day. The batteries degrade over time even if not used? And then, costs 1/3 the price of the car when new, to replace the battery pack?

    Actual studies of Teslas show that the batteries are holding up far better than that. They might be down to 90% of capacity after 100,000 miles, but the additional degradation doesn't seem to be significant beyond that distance.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:16PM (1 child)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday June 21 2017, @05:16PM (#529122)

      Actually, actual studies show that Li-ion batteries have variable numbers of cycles, and that "1000 cycle" number really comes from full-discharge-full-recharge cycles, which you should never do if you can help it. Tesla sets theirs so they only discharge to 20%, and recharge to 80%, as this greatly increases the lifetime of Li-ion cells. Basically, every time you completely discharge a Li-ion battery, you're damaging it and significantly reducing its lifespan.

      • (Score: 2) by Whoever on Thursday June 22 2017, @01:57AM

        by Whoever (4524) on Thursday June 22 2017, @01:57AM (#529316) Journal

        Tesla sets theirs so they only discharge to 20%, and recharge to 80%, as this greatly increases the lifetime of Li-ion cells

        I think you will find that Tesla only advises customers to do this. The cars are capable of using all of the battery capacity (unless some of the capacity is software locked, like the "60" models which were built with a 75kWh battery).

  • (Score: 2) by mojo chan on Thursday June 22 2017, @03:43PM

    by mojo chan (266) on Thursday June 22 2017, @03:43PM (#529537)

    The Panasonic cells Tesla uses are rated for 3000 cycles. At 300 miles per cycle that's 900,000 miles over their lifetime, which is defined at 80% capacity remaining. Tesla tested them up to 750,000 miles with 86% capacity remaining.

    There is a taxi firm in the UK that has some Leafs at 180k miles. Multiple rapid charges per day, and then a slower full charge overnight. 7 days a week. Batteries all have over 90% capacity remaining. Turns out what they really don't like is being charged to 100% or discharged below 10% and then being left stationary for long periods of time, like months.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday June 22 2017, @07:19PM

    by bob_super (1357) on Thursday June 22 2017, @07:19PM (#529623)

    > And then, costs 1/3 the price of the car when new, to replace the battery pack?

    Unlike an ICE, an electric car with a new battery is almost a new car.
    Add a few thousands for a new motor, and if you don't live in rust-crazy areas, you have most of a new car.