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posted by Fnord666 on Friday June 23 2017, @06:12PM   Printer-friendly
from the bitcoins-are-like-cash dept.

U.S. Congress wants to pass a bill that would put serious fines ($10K for bitcoins as opposed to $5K for cash, IIRC) and jail time (ten years, as opposed to five IIRC) if you cross the border without reporting your bitcoins (in addition to confiscating your bitcoins of course).

http://www.coindesk.com/forfeit-bitcoin-congressional-bill-draws-fire-border-check-rules/

A group of US lawmakers wants to see cryptocurrency holdings declared at the nation's border – and advocates of the tech are pushing back.

Introduced last month, the Combating Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Counterfeiting Act of 2017 – which is actually the third iteration of a bill that debuted in 2011 – would bring a range of digital currency services under federal scrutiny, including those that provide transaction mixing services.

Yet, the provision that has attracted the particular ire of cryptocurrency advocates – especially those who prefer a regulation-light environment – is one that would make such holdings subject to disclosure requirements at US customs checkpoints. This means if a person trying to enter the country has more than $10,000 worth of bitcoin in their possession, under the proposed legal change, they would need to inform the relevant authorities.

Such requirements are already in place for payment methods like cash. But given the rising public profile of cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, coupled with the perception among policymakers that they could be used to fund terrorist activities, is driving legislative efforts like the bill currently under consideration.

[...] Thus far, the bill hasn't advanced significantly since being introduced last month, public records show. On 25th May, the measure was referred to the Senate Judiciary Committee for further consideration.

At press time, representatives for Senators Chuck Grassley and Diane Feinstein hadn't responded to CoinDesk requests for comment. The bill is also being sponsored by Senators John Cornyn and Sheldon Whitehouse, constituting a group of two Republicans and two Democrats.


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  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @06:44PM (10 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @06:44PM (#530159)

    This is the identical problem that the music industry had to grapple with circa. 1999 or so. And that the movie/video industry is currently grappling with.

    What is that problem:

    Digital data has no physical existence, therefore trying to apply the old rules for physical items to digital data is a fools errand.

    This kind of law, and all of the "what if you have this scenarios ...", is exactly what you get when a lawmaker does not understand the distinction between physical things (paper cash and metal coin in your physical possession at a border crossing) and virtual things (bitcoins or any other digital data) which may exist anywhere on the globe but still be "yours".

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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @08:34PM (9 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @08:34PM (#530222)

    It makes no sense; if a phenomenon exists in this universe, then it has "physical existence". To say that something "has no physical existence" is to say "I don't really understand what's going on here." That's it!

    Magnetic patterns on a hard drive platter, numbers written on a piece of paper, a large network of computers, whatever! It's all "physical". It's all "tangible". It's all here in this universe along with you and me and the trees and everything else.

    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Friday June 23 2017, @08:59PM (6 children)

      by edIII (791) on Friday June 23 2017, @08:59PM (#530234)

      Wow. A super pedant here on SN :)

      Existence in of itself , and information involves quite the ontological discussion. Yes, even memories and love might be said to be tangible as it exists in physical and chemical processes within people. Even spoken language and history preserved by songs can be tangible in that sense. All of humanity stores the information.

      2 + 2 = 4;

      Is that tangible? Is mathematical knowledge itself something that is tangible? It exists beyond humanity, and yet according to your logic, only exists in a physical sense. That being it is held in electro-chemical storage within human beings. However, we both know that 2 + 2 will equal 4 in the complete absence of self referencing awareness's and information storage devices. Prove to me that math, and its phenomenons, are tangible in all cases.

      I do love your argument though. If a movie has to be tangible, meaning the video film and all storage devices, than piracy is logically precluded. I never stole your tangible movie! :) I just duplicated the "phenomenons" using my own work and storage devices.

      Going forward with your logic, this law is incredibly stupid. The Bitcoin wallet is not tangible and physically present with the citizen crossing the border. It's tangibility only exists on a server in New York. Does the citizen have the server in his pocket? No, so nothing ever need be declared. That's perfect for me. I just won't cross the border with any tangible data. Just a clean device ready to be loaded again on the other side.

      This means we need a border in cyberspace to process the Bitcoin wallet moving back and forth itself. Good. Fucking. Luck.

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Friday June 23 2017, @09:37PM (2 children)

        by mhajicek (51) on Friday June 23 2017, @09:37PM (#530260)

        I would say that the information itself has no physical existence, but all representations of information do.

        --
        The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @09:48PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @09:48PM (#530264)

          There is nothing but representation—something either exists in this universe, or it doesn't.

          So, one phenomenon (words written on paper) can be transformed into another phenomenon (a magnetic imprint on a hard drive platter) and then back to the former phenomenon (words written on paper) losslessly.

          SO WHAT!

          That does not imply that there is some "non-physical" thing that is being represented in 2 different ways; there are merely (and at least) 2 phenomena in this universe, each of which can be derived from the other—indeed, there is no way to talk about some third "non-physical", abstract thing without pointing to one of these phenomena. The phenomenon is the information.

        • (Score: 2) by KGIII on Friday June 23 2017, @11:06PM

          by KGIII (5261) on Friday June 23 2017, @11:06PM (#530292) Journal

          If you get bored, look up Hawking Radiation and the black hole information paradox. It may offer you a new way to look at it.

          --
          "So long and thanks for all the fish."
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @09:39PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday June 23 2017, @09:39PM (#530262)
        • Either there is a phenomenon in this universe, or there isn't. It's that simple. Indeed, as you say, humanity has nothing to do with it.

        • There's nothing exceptional about outlawing certain behavior; it makes perfect sense to say that there could be a law forbidding a person from making a duplicate of some data (indeed, you very easily talk about "piracy" as being an identifiable phenomenon in the universe).

        • Your argument for "non-physical" being an actual quality really does seem to boil down to "I don't really understand what's going on here." In the case of a law forbidding piracy, this becomes "It would be too difficult to enforce"; that's really what you mean.

      • (Score: 2) by kaszz on Friday June 23 2017, @11:47PM

        by kaszz (4211) on Friday June 23 2017, @11:47PM (#530320) Journal

        This means we need a border in cyberspace to process the Bitcoin wallet moving back and forth itself. Good. Fucking. Luck.

        It's called the Chinese firewall..

        (at least they build walls instead of talking about them..)

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 24 2017, @05:32AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 24 2017, @05:32AM (#530473)

        You seem to be trying to make a point -- lots of words -- and yet, you really don't. Better luck next time.

    • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday June 24 2017, @08:04AM (1 child)

      by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Saturday June 24 2017, @08:04AM (#530506) Homepage
      > It's all "tangible".

      What about reciting the hex expansion to yourself in your head. How is that tangible.

      If your only point was that "it's all in the universe", then so it fucking everything, your point is utterly vapid and valueless. To any argument. Ever.
      --
      Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 24 2017, @02:58PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 24 2017, @02:58PM (#530572)

        It's as stupid as saying "God" to explain something.