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In a shift from a mere couple of years ago, when a majority of Republican-Americans thought that higher education was a good thing, the majority of them now believe the opposite.
A Pew Research Center survey published Monday revealed voters have grown apart in their support of secondary education since the 2016 presidential election season, when a majority of Democratic and Republican Americans agreed the nation’s universities serve as a benefit for the U.S. Whereas 54 percent of Republicans said "colleges and universities had a positive impact on the way things were going in the country" in 2015, the majority now believe the opposite, with 58 percent saying such institutions negatively impact the state of the union.
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Newsweek: Majority of Republicans Say Colleges Are Bad for America
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It's not reality that's important, but how you perceive things.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Tuesday July 11 2017, @05:41AM (30 children)
A simplistic explanation, don't you think?
Education is not primarily to provide the graduate with a job, is about teaching the graduate how to think for her/himself.
It's not teaching "what" and "how" it (should be) teaching "why" (and "when" - temporal context - and "where" - spatial context).
Teaching "what/how" is training.
An educated person should be able to orient her/himself in a given reality and assess what s/he can do in the circumstances and find something that's useful. Is IT becoming outsourced? Look around, perhaps driving earth-moving equipment is better? Well, you'll do it for a bit - a 2-3 weeks training course will cost you less than the latest iGadget - and you'll do it knowing well you don't quite fit in there and arrange for some exit conditions. Or buy yourself a second-hand van and go exploring, do something here and there for a while. Get to know one's limits and one's capabilities.
US economic life is getting rigged? Immigration is still an option - let the US politicians quarrel and conduct make-believe politics (while feeding corpo-cleptocracy) and find yourself a country in which common-sense didn't become extinct. Education should have give one a hint that such countries exists - the Internet is cheap, one can inform oneself about different options.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 11 2017, @06:03AM (28 children)
If you can't think for your self, you don't deserve to graduate from high school. You have failed to become an adult.
College, sadly, tries to undermine one's ability to think for oneself. You're expected to blindly accept liberal dogma. Pay no attention to Venezuela, or to violent immigrants, or to the fact that even chimpanzees (not even human) show gendered toy preferences. College will NOT help you think.
And, uh, why is it that liberals always argue that one must learn to think in college? Is this something they don't learn prior to college? Do they mean "think" in some kind of Orwellian way, where "think" means just the opposite of the usual dictionary definition?
(Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Tuesday July 11 2017, @06:09AM (20 children)
This is how it should be.
In the meanwhile, the should was replaced by just pass the exam (with the continuation of "who cares what you think, you are a shit anyway, we made sure of it").
Replacement happened ever since "No kid left behind" if not earlier than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by kaszz on Tuesday July 11 2017, @06:13AM (19 children)
Sounds like the education-work market is up for some paradigm change..
(Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday July 11 2017, @06:25AM (18 children)
If you see education in the context of "market" (any market), you are already on the wrong track.
Personal opinion, that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday July 11 2017, @12:21PM (10 children)
Breaking your view of the world won't help you see better. Education was supposed to help with that.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday July 11 2017, @12:44PM (9 children)
Not breaking it will surely make you blind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 12 2017, @02:53AM (8 children)
First, does an education have value? I believe from several of your posts, you indicate you believe an education has enormous value. So that's one box of the checklist for a market, having things which are valued. Further, not everyone is equally education and can by choice become more educated.
Can an education or education be exchanged? Of course. It happens all the time with certain professions such as the teacher passing on knowledge and skills to students. Having something of value which can be exchanged or traded is a big step towards a market. It's also worth noting that both teachers and students have choices that they can make to alter how education is traded. And that the exchange of education is not equally effective for every means of education or choice of teacher or student.
In other words, we have a thing of value which can be traded, and participants who can make choices which effect both how much of the thing is exchanged and how much cost they expend in order to obtain the thing. That's a market whether or not you choose to view it as such.
There are certain strategies that lend themselves naturally to a market viewpoint. For example, if you wish to obtain a better education, you can make choices like moving to a new school, alter your lifestyle, or pay more for better teachers, that are typical market choices. Nor does it hurt the concept of education to think in these terms. Education is a non-trivial effort and one needs to consider the cost of the effort due to these trade offs.
So going back to your observation:
I think that's a bad idea since the market context is present (rather obvious really when you consider how much people shop for colleges due to their economic value). Why choose to ignore a context, particularly a very relevant one? Isn't that the opposite of what an education is supposed to do?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Wednesday July 12 2017, @03:45AM (1 child)
Let me make myself clear ('cause I wasn't, indeed).
In today's society (not exclusive to the US) education in itself probably contributes to "survivability" (quality of life of an individual) as much as physical fitness and health do. Some (many? me included) go to the point of sacrificing physical fitness to being better educated. Some go even further and sacrifice parts of their health - you wouldn't wonder to hear that someone is wearing think glasses due to excessive reading, would you? And this is only to touch what level of "exchange" is possible. See? I'm admitting education is "tradeable".
Restricting oneself of "getting and education just to be able to get a job" (or to "trade into a certain market") seems like a stupid strategy: education has to many valences to be used only as the object of a barter. If you are indeed able to think for yourself, you are going to see that there are more than a single way to survive than "getting a job" and kissing the assess of those who may offer you one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 12 2017, @01:36PM
There are three observations to make here. First, this is your opinion. Other people have very different opinions on the matter. Second, I'd rather people get educations for the wrong reasons (but which are perfectly valid to themselves, I might add) than not get one at all. Third, there is a serious problem with people going to college (for hypothetically the right reasons) and not actually getting an education, but rather an indoctrination in some batshit crazy stuff (particularly, the victim-obsessed ideologies where everyone aside from a few scapegoats is viewed as a victim, near completely helpless and not responsible for their actions).
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 12 2017, @09:02AM (5 children)
Most idiotic question ever asked by khallow on SoylentNews, ever. Give me your education, khallow, and I will give you ONE MILLION DOLLars! But by give, I mean you will no longer possess it. Kinda like a pound of flesh closest to your brain, my dear and fluffly free-marketeer libertariantard!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 12 2017, @01:40PM (4 children)
Notice I follow that question with the observation that education can and is exchanged. So guess it wasn't the most idiotic question I've ever asked? I'll need to try harder next time.
How about you just give me the money, no strings? Clearly, it's no good for your sanity. I can do better.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 13 2017, @12:45AM (3 children)
Yes, alrighty then, the most idiotic answer khallow has given to one of the most idiotic questions he already asked. But do not knock yourself out on our account! Remember: education is not a commodity. It cannot be exchanged. It cannot be liquidated. Education is forever. Ignorance, however, you can trade on the open market, especially at Breitbark!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 13 2017, @04:01AM (2 children)
Doesn't have to be. Markets trade in much more than just commodities.
As I noted, schools and teachers do it every day.
Irrelevant.
Again irrelevant.
(Score: 2) by urza9814 on Thursday July 13 2017, @09:59PM (1 child)
No they don't. Exchange requires a transfer of ownership. The teacher cannot give up ownership of their knowledge, so that is not an exchange.
*Time* is part of the exchange, but *education* cannot be. And that distinction isn't as trivial as it seems. If you and I both buy iPhones, we both have the same product with the same functionality. If you and I both pay for the same education, even in the exact same class, it's extremely unlikely that we're both going to walk away with the same knowledge. You can pay someone to stand there talking at you, but you can't actually buy knowledge or education.
Hiring a teacher and saying you bought an education is like hiring a prostitute and saying you bought love.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday July 13 2017, @11:02PM
No, it doesn't. The definition is simply that something is traded [dictionary.com] for something else (often of "equivalent" value). Both teacher and student invest considerable time and resources in order to increase the student's knowledge. That is the exchange.
Just noting here that you almost got it.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 11 2017, @02:07PM (6 children)
Kinda, sorta, maybe - but I can't agree very strongly. Colleges really should aim their curriculums toward productive goals. Naming and quoting every poet who ever lived is a very niche thing, and almost no one will ever want to pay you for doing it. So, while Snow White was studying all that poetry, we can hope that she was also developing some salable skills, as well.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday July 11 2017, @03:31PM
Agreed. But that has nothing to do with education, everything to do with erudition at its worst or passion for poetry at its best.
(and there are a number of places which will actually pay you for being able to judge poetry. Perhaps not in today's America, even they used to exist there some times back)
Umm... I'm very tempted to correct that typo, if you promise not to get upset... Are you sure? Fine then...
You see, the number of places in geisha education in any Japan cities are quite restricted. And they do learn poetry and music and dance and perfect manners and tea ceremony and heaps of other non-productive skills and behaviours (including a Snow White makeup) and some of the more salacious bits and pieces.
---
But I digress. You say a school needs to get you prepared for jobs?
Sorry if it comes as a surprise to you after all the time you lived, but no school in this world can offer you enough practical skill at graduation.
Trade school will offer the basics of "how" and "what" and apprenticeship during but mainly after graduation will offer you enough practice to allow you to become a professional trade-person. The trade school will offer you training. it's up to you and your master (or however the person responsible for an apprentice is called nowadays) to distill professionalism.
Colleges and universities are supposed to show you heaps and in a large diversity of "how"and "what" with the sole purpose of exercising the "why", "when" and "where" capabilities of your brain. Any honest school of this kind can't do more than to hope to develop enough capabilities and knowledge to be able to think on your own There's not enough time for them to teach you more.
In my time (and in my country of origin) they use to say university is the place where you learn how to learn.
If you hope more than that you are a fool. If the college promises more than that, they are confidence tricksters. There's not enough time in 3 (college) or 5 or 6 years (uni) to give you more than a head-start at graduation - a kick in the butt with the hope you learned how to land gracefully, roll over in a tumble and get up on your feet ready for the next kick. After some years of practice at the just-graduated-clown level, you may finish to be a true artist in your profession, but not at the end of the school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 11 2017, @07:51PM (1 child)
Typical conboy, doesn't understand what education is really about. You only understand money. I hope you realize someday that your attitude is what will send humanity into the hellhole of wage slavery. "Only learn what we find useful peasant, BAN ALL OTHER LEARNING!"
(Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday July 12 2017, @02:55AM
And made the world a better place for us than ever before.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by number11 on Tuesday July 11 2017, @10:32PM (2 children)
It used to be that businesses trained their employees. Sometimes that was through apprenticeships, sometimes other ways. They even trained managers. Now businesses want everything handed to them on a silver platter, so that they can reap the rewards without spending the money.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 11 2017, @11:46PM (1 child)
You've hit on something important there. No business can really expect to find people ready to plug into a slot, and be productive from day one. But, the idiots running things seem to expect it.
(Score: 1) by purple_cobra on Wednesday July 12 2017, @09:00PM
You've just hit on one of the many reasons MBAs should be shot out of a cannon into the ravine of their choice.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 11 2017, @07:06AM (6 children)
You know, I am starting to understand this. If you are incapable of understanding ideas, and evaluating them for yourself and adopting them on their own merits, it may seem like there is some vast left-wing conspiracy attempting to compel you into group-think. Of course, this is not what is going on at all, it is just that you are conservative and not intelligent enough to understand the principles in question. But it is nice that all of us that do can now have some insight into your experience, although there is still really nothing we can do about it.
As Momma said, Jesus can forgive your sins. Cain't do much about stupid, though.
(Score: 0, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 11 2017, @09:03AM (2 children)
Disprovable and failing Keynesian economic principles? Easily disprovable victimhood and oppression narratives? The gender "pay gap" myth that is endlessly repeated despite the fact it cannot be accounted for by illegal wage discrimination? The idea that there are more than two genders and that the best way to treat mental illness is to encourage and enable it? That there's some patriarchal conspiracy by "white males"? And the big "principle" that when called out on complete bullshit, the bullshitters simply avoid the argument and resort to calling the callee "stupid"?
Pffft!
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Tuesday July 11 2017, @09:34AM
Yep, everything you said, and therefore you, stupid. Not true? Unverified by actual research. Wrong. Mean, in the words of the Boy-Emperor himself. Republican. Anti-intellectual, and therefore unintellectual. So, got anything else? Hey, what about moon-landings, vaccines, and con, I mean chem-trails? Don't you just love the smell of Alex Jones in the morning? (And you wonder why no one takes your opinion of higher education seriously!)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 11 2017, @06:46PM
Happened, safe and bogus. Don't worry about addressing the other issues though because you know they're bullshit and you know they're being taught as fact in colleges.
(Score: 1, Troll) by VLM on Tuesday July 11 2017, @12:26PM (1 child)
Its more about holiness signalling than intelligence. Rational thought never enters the picture. Calling a group low intelligence is just an insult, its not the point. If calling them the N-word were an acceptable insult, they'd call em that.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday July 11 2017, @02:16PM
"If calling them the N-word were an acceptable insult, they'd call em that."
New Yorkers? FFS, man, if you mean to call someone a New Yorker, just come out and say it. Stop beating around the bush. And, yes, those damned New Yorkers have been getting uppity, ever since 9/11/01. I agree, it's time to put them in their place!
These little videos should amuse you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeilxKluTCU [youtube.com]
(Score: 4, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Tuesday July 11 2017, @04:32PM
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
--Isaac Asimov
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Tuesday July 11 2017, @11:50PM
That's fine for a 22-yr old, it is far less realistic for somebody in their 40's or 50's or more because they have ties that severely constrain the employment flexibility you've described, including children, mortgages, health issues, etc. Mix in ageism, a particular hobgoblin of the tech industry, and it quickly becomes clear that labor markets are not and never will be as liquid as capital is.
But, then, that's all true of a global mindset where workers work for those who control the means of production. Control of the means of production is rapidly eroding on several fronts, so it's possible that a new mindset will snap into place in the not-too-distant future.
Washington DC delenda est.