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posted by mrpg on Sunday July 30 2017, @05:55PM   Printer-friendly
from the marry-me dept.

You’re not the only one spending fewer summer weekends watching other people get married—but don’t worry, the weddings you’re still invited to might feel a little more special these days.

Fewer Americans are getting married, and the ones who still are have scaled back their weddings. Their nuptials are becoming smaller, though not necessarily cheaper, affairs.

Many couples are waiting longer and longer to schedule their weddings. In 2015, the median first-time American bride was almost 28 years old and the median groom almost 30, according to the most recent data available from the Census Bureau. (Ten years earlier, the typical bride was 25.5, the typical groom 27.)

The U.S. marriage rate—the number of new marriages per 1,000 people—has been falling for decades. It fell especially fast during the recession, in 2008 and 2009, but there’s little evidence that people started getting married again even as the economy recovered. And research firm IbisWorld predicts the marriage rate will keep falling over the next five years.

From a global perspective, that wouldn’t be a surprise. The U.S. marriage rate would need to fall by about a third to reach the marriage rates in other developed countries. The most recent data show a U.S. marriage rate of 6.9, compared with an average rate of 4.6 for countries in the European Union.

Are weaker economics the cause, or has marriage gone out of fashion?


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by KGIII on Monday July 31 2017, @04:31AM (12 children)

    by KGIII (5261) on Monday July 31 2017, @04:31AM (#546975) Journal

    That is foreign, to me. Even when I was poor, I had a girlfriend. In my days of being an asshole; I cheated on my mistress - which means, yes, I even had a wife at the time. All of them have been quite good looking, if I dated them. I have a girlfriend asleep beside me, though I am completely faithful today.

    It is not, to me, difficult to get and maintain relationships. Your experience is something I do not understand. I am not a good looking individual. I'm just average. I do have a Ph.D. in mathematics, and am pretty nerdy - though I have non-nerdy hobbies. I can't dance well, but I can count and kinda wiggle in time. I can play the guitar quite well, but that's just math being expressed artistically.

    I pay attention to people, I'm an active listener. I tell salient jokes and stories. I engage people on their level. I watch for visual cues, and try to make people feel important.

    I try never to say, "I understand." I don't understand, I am not in their shoes. Instead, I say, "I can relate to that."

    I try to never say, "You should..." Instead, I say, "You could try..."

    I don't know. As I said, I don't have capacity to understand where you're coming from. But, those are some of the key things that help me get and keep companionship. If you can apply them, they may help you. It does take effort and mindfullness.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
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  • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Monday July 31 2017, @10:59AM (11 children)

    by Nuke (3162) on Monday July 31 2017, @10:59AM (#547083)

    I pay attention to people, I'm an active listener. I tell salient jokes and stories. I engage people on their level. I watch for visual cues, and try to make people feel important..... As I said, I don't have capacity to understand where you're coming from. But, those are some of the key things that help me get and keep companionship.

    Sorry, that explains how you keep companionship, just as I described elsewhere in this thread. It does not explain how you get companionship. Everything you mention "tell jokes", "engage people on their level", "watch for cues" assumes that you are already with someone.

    A scenario : you move into a new city for a new job. You don't know anyone except the guys you work with. It's engineering so they are mostly or all men, and you have very little occasion to deal with the few young women around (maybe in admin) and when you do they treat you with stony contempt. Anyway, your boss would frown on you chatting to girls in the corridors as the work is intense, although the guy who cleans the toilets can do it.

    You go to a bar or public dance and approach a girl. For no obvious reason (I'm not that bad-looking) they tell you to fuck off. If they are polite they just turn walk away. Is that the sort of "cue" you mean?

    It's Xmas and the department party. Some of those girls clerks will be there and you make up your mind to talk to a particular one. She turns up with three guys in tow already; you have never even seen them before and they are probably from the works, not the office, but no-one questions their presence. Anyway there are only about 6 girls and 50 men in the room, and among 50 men there are bound to be at leat six who are more charming and chatty than I am. In fact it is the middle-aged men who monopolise the girls because they know by experience how to talk to women.

    The only girls I ever "met" for more than about 5 seconds were through a dating club (pre-internet).

    • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Monday July 31 2017, @11:56AM (1 child)

      by Magic Oddball (3847) on Monday July 31 2017, @11:56AM (#547102) Journal

      Sorry, that explains how you keep companionship, just as I described elsewhere in this thread. It does not explain how you get companionship. Everything you mention "tell jokes", "engage people on their level", "watch for cues" assumes that you are already with someone.

      Not true. I'm solitary & single, but if an employee or volunteer sees me enough times to recognize my face (which doesn't take long), they invariably greet me with a very friendly "hey, how's it going?" when they see me, and chat for several minutes as soon as they get the chance. (I think it's just that my autistic eye-contact is "stare in their eye" type, I smile/laugh easily, they can apparently tell I'm genuinely interested in what they have to say, and I don't say a heck of a lot beyond quick humorous anecdotes or quips once I get a feel for their sense of humor.)

      OTOH if you put me into a situation where there's a lot of noise and/or strangers asking me questions I'm not expecting, rather than one where I can let them do the talking, then I'm more likely to freeze up and bomb.

      • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Monday July 31 2017, @01:05PM

        by Nuke (3162) on Monday July 31 2017, @01:05PM (#547120)

        I'm solitary & single, but if an employee or volunteer sees me enough times to recognize my face (which doesn't take long), they invariably greet me with a very friendly "hey, how's it going?" when they see me, and chat for several minutes as soon as they get the chance.

        Lucky you. No girl my own age ever did that. I see it happen in films sometimes but it seems so unrealistic.

        I'm wondering though if you are a girl? I have had some attractive and charming GFs (met in the dating club as I said) and if they were not directly with me (or even if they were) they could hardly cross a room without some guy intercepting them with a chat-up line. The girls were so used to it they just brushed it aside as part of life and would generally grumble to me about it.

    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by VLM on Monday July 31 2017, @12:33PM (3 children)

      by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 31 2017, @12:33PM (#547112)

      Talk to the married guys in your group. If your work is strictly 22-26 yr old brogrammers then GTFO ASAP for numerous reasons. Or ask the married guys at church or something. Some of the more laid back non-denominationals don't require you to believe in anything other than progressive politics, which is kinda funny.

      The point is chicks live in an alternative universe. "Morlocks" and "Eloi" was a social commentary on men and women, not solely social class or race.

      Once I got married my wife started dragging me to all kinds of "chick events". Scrapbooking store, scrapbooking trade show, craft store, craft store classes... Going to the gym cardio bunny classes as a single guy is being a creep, going with your wife is so cute, being my wingman so I'm not the only straight guy there, is being a loyal bro which the girls will respect. Oh another thing your local education system will have community education free or cheap non-credit classes. I took Japanese (and forgot it all, but the gender ratio was awesome) and some cooking classes (ditto). Even if you can, don't take classes at 11am because those are all retirees, unless you're into older women. Take the classes at "date night" time like "Learn Italian Cooking" Thursday at 6:30pm. You want a lab-partner class not a sit and listen to lectures class, so cooking classes are far superior to language classes, although in language classes if you ask the wrong question you'll get the benefit of doubt, mostly. You can get away with sounding silly if you ask her out for coffee in bad Japanese but you can't get away with asking if she likes tentacles or something like that.

      If you live in a civilized suburb there will be a highly active parks and rec dept to entertain the kids, which spills over into groups for everyone of all ages, and the parks and rec dept where I live sponsors adult leagues in all kinds of sports, softball, soccer, volleyball, dodgeball, a bunch others. You don't have to know what you're doing. Half the people there are looking for a spouse, the other half are trying to get away from their spouse, and another half just enjoy a socially acceptable excuse to get drunk after the game. So avoid the alcoholics and the married chicks and you'll have fun. Obviously there's more girls playing slow pitch softball than overhand baseball, etc. Volleyball and dodgeball have more women than men, mostly.

      Long before I met my wife I used to go to craft stores and ask women to help me pick out a gift for my mom. This was shockingly successful. This also keeps you on mom's good side. I suppose sister or auntie or secret santa would work, etc.

      • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday July 31 2017, @05:31PM (2 children)

        by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday July 31 2017, @05:31PM (#547259) Journal

        Just curious, is this how all "successful with women" men think and act? Because reading this gave me the icks. I have to wonder how the hell are there 7+ billion of us if this is how the hetero mating game is played. No doubt you think of yourself as a Morlock rather than one of the Eloi?

        --
        I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by VLM on Monday July 31 2017, @09:12PM (1 child)

          by VLM (445) Subscriber Badge on Monday July 31 2017, @09:12PM (#547370)

          think and act

          OP wanted a target rich environment with the implication that a target rich environment is not where OP is.

          You may not like my unique writing style; that's cool; but my observations seem accurate answering where the women are.

          There is an alternative for "successful with women" which is along the lines of "get em drunk at the bar and have fun" frat bro stuff, but presumably OP isn't a drinker or he'd already know, and I I never got into that bar scene.

          • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday August 01 2017, @05:41PM

            by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday August 01 2017, @05:41PM (#547712) Journal

            It isn't your "unique writing style" you slimy redpilling shitweasel, it's your dehumanization of women. We are not a different species, the interaction between the sexes is not and should not be approached as an adversarial manner, and just the choice of the phrase "target-rich environment" is telling me more about you than I suspect you wanted to reveal.

            Why is it so FUCKING HARD for so many men to just treat women like people?

            --
            I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
    • (Score: 2) by KGIII on Monday July 31 2017, @01:53PM

      by KGIII (5261) on Monday July 31 2017, @01:53PM (#547140) Journal

      No, those are how you get companionship as well. You meet them by doing things people do. You can meet them grocery shopping, walking, etc... Just don't assume they all are open to contact beyond a friendly hello. Watch for cues and listen to them. Go take dancing lessons, for example. You're not there to become a great dancer, you're there to socialize. Socializing may lead to dating, but don't assume it will. I keep saying not to assume, because that's the mindset. You're there to socialize, dating is a bonus and uncertain.

      It's not something I've ever had issues with. Maybe you're being too earnest? Relax, maybe? If you put yourself out there, it may help. You could try just spending all your free time finding ways to be around people. You could join clubs, groups, and all sorts of stuff like that. In my experiences, conversation comes before dating. I don't do this with the goal of dating them, I do this with the goal of enabling them to be comfortable and happy. I dunno? It works for me.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday July 31 2017, @07:04PM (3 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday July 31 2017, @07:04PM (#547302)

      I feel like I can relate to some of this, but honestly it sounds like you have some kind of issue if young women (in admin or whatever) treat you with "stony contempt". Maybe you have a really angry face or something? I had to train myself a bit in my younger years to look happier and be more friendly in interacting with random people, and it works well. I certainly don't have issues with "stony contempt", and girls seem to like talking with me at times, the problem is getting from friendly idle chat to something more meaningful.

      So for girlfriends (and my last marriage--what a mistake...), my method of meeting women has been online dating. That's how I *get* companionship. Other venues just haven't worked with a damn. I've written about this many, many, many times before in various forums like this, but in my analysis the places where men go to meet women typically are (not necessarily in order):
      1) school (/college)
      2) church
      3) work
      4) bars/clubs
      5) through friends/family
      6) through activities
      7) on the street/in public
      8) online dating

      #1 is probably out for most of us; once you're out of college, it's no longer an option. It does seem to me that the best relationships are made in college: the happiest married couples seem like they met in college. At that young, but not too-young age, people are probably more mature than in high school (so they don't make such idiotic relationship choices as much), but still have malleable personalities so they can "grow into" each other. That's my theory anyway.

      #2 isn't much help if you aren't religious. I was told by my ex-wife (who was religious--big mistake!) many times that in the churches she went to, single women frequently outnumbered single men 10-to-1, and the preacher told them to only date people in the church because of some crap about being "equally yoked". My advice: do not date anyone who has a different religion from yourself, and religious people shouldn't date non-religious people. It's just too much of an issue.

      #3 is a big problem in this industry for obvious reasons.

      #4 only works well if you like to drink a lot and like to go to bars a lot. Personally, I don't. I don't really drink (I can drink a little bit of wine now and then to relax, but that's not something you do at a bar), and I don't really like crowds of talking people very much. I have a hard time understanding speech in noisy environments anyway. Plus, if you fake it to meet someone, you'll end up dating someone who wants to drink a lot, so not a good match. Personally, I'd say that if you're a non-drinker and non-churchgoer, your chances of finding a decent female partner in the US are not very good. In my experience, American women come in two main flavors: religious nuts, or heavy drinkers (with some overlap). Very, very few of them are negative on both of these. Consequently, I seem to date and get a lot of interest from Asian-born women...

      #5 Meeting women through family might work if you have family that you really get along great with. If you're the black sheep or otherwise totally unlike them, forget it. My extended family are rural-dwellers, I'm not. I almost never see them. Meeting women through friends might work if you have a lot of friends or something; I don't (who has time? Can't have lots of friends and also have time for geeky projects), plus for anyone this is likely to yield a limited source of potential matches, unless you go through friends really fast. According to articles I've seen about this very topic, this factor has gone way, way down in recent decades.

      #6 If you're new in a city, this is probably one of your 2 best bets. Get on meetup.com and join some groups that interest you. You might meet someone through those. Of course, if you only join D&D groups or something, maybe not... Personally I like hiking a lot, so I've done that a fair amount, and have frequently been on hikes where the women outnumbered the men 3-1. Unfortunately, in this area it seemed like most of the women were retirement-aged... But it's worth a shot. It's never yielded anything for me however.

      #7 Do people actually do this? Maybe in movies...

      #8 This is where I've met ALL my post-college dates, and my ex-wife.

      In your case, I'd recommend maybe seeing a counselor to try to find out why you immediately turn off people and get some coaching or something, and then try online dating with OKCupid. Also try Meetup. Finally, look for a new job if your work is so "intense" that you can't chat with people in the hallway without your boss getting mad. Don't waste your time at bars; those girls can probably tell right away that you're not part of that group. Also, if you're still in your 20s, just get used to being single; that's the worst age for single men as women usually want someone older. Or if you live near a University, try getting involved in some activities that would put you in contact with college girls (this probably doesn't apply to you personally; if you used a dating club pre-internet, that probably puts you in your mid-40s or above).

      • (Score: 2) by Nuke on Monday July 31 2017, @08:05PM (2 children)

        by Nuke (3162) on Monday July 31 2017, @08:05PM (#547335)

        if you used a dating club pre-internet, that probably puts you in your mid-40s or above).

        Just to be clear, I am middle-aged and married. I am describing my past experiences and commenting that most advice is totally off-target, certainly for me at the time. But of course this discussion is useful for others and your advice has a lot of sense in it.

        The only girls I ever dated were via a dating club. I soon concluded that any other way, though it might work eventually, was a demoralising waste of time. It was a horrible period of my life that one is supposed to enjoy. The thing about hobby clubs is that they are mostly older people and anyway they might have joined eg an art club because they are actually just interested in art. I have been in such clubs and usually the only women are the middle-aged wives of other members.

        Family? - date my cousin?! Friends? - my friends were all male and hobby related : we only ever "socialised" at hobby meets. If there had been a girl there they'd be outnumbered 20:1, but there weren't any. Such friends were hardly likely to introduce me to any girl - they didn't know any themselves. My mother was angry when she realised I'd joined a dating club : she said I should only date girls I "knew already", but of course there were none. One of the daftest things she ever said - but she came from a different age. But a lot of people seem to share that attiude "A dating club??!! - but you might meet strangers!! Aaaargh!"

        But once you date a girl you actually start to meet others too. One GF I had, who was one of the prettiest girls I have ever seen, like the actress Fairuza Balk in The Craft but better (but sooo dull), turned out to have three sisters of similar age and beauty. I saw a world which seemed to have conspired to exclude me.

        You talked of religion and Asian girls. One GF was a Muslim Malay, very pretty, shy and deferential; I don't think the religion would have been a problem. She was 27 and I was the first BF she'd had; her father was a senior official in Penang so she was not a gold-digger. But I met my future wife in the same "batch" of dating club introductions and I had to choose fast; sometimes I think ..... Most of the GFs I had were not high fliers, or downright working-class, and I think that is a better choice. I never looked for an intellectual sparring partner, I get enough grey cell excercise at work.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday July 31 2017, @10:06PM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday July 31 2017, @10:06PM (#547391)

          The thing about hobby clubs is that they are mostly older people

          I have to differ on this one. First of all, here in the DC area there's a bunch of "maker" clubs and other such things on Meetup which seem to have a lot of younger guys. Of course, those kind of clubs aren't much help for finding a date if you're in your 20s-40s.

          But the hiking clubs I mentioned, and have some experience with, absolutely seem to function as singles mixers, though they have all ages. Most of the attendees seemed to be single, and it sure seemed like a lot of the people were there to mingle and chat with members of the opposite sex, and they did a lot (I talk in past tense because I have a gf now and haven't been on one of these hikes in a while). Now as I said before, they have all ages, and it did seem like a lot of people were 50+ (though in great shape I'll add), but again they seemed to be looking to mingle.

          that most advice is totally off-target, certainly for me at the time.

          I totally agree; I've heard plenty of such useless advice myself, like this:
          My mother was angry when she realised I'd joined a dating club : she said I should only date girls I "knew already",

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 01 2017, @05:48AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 01 2017, @05:48AM (#547529)

          I sure wish I had lived closer to my cousins. They were mighty fine. I would definitely have gone for them.

          Bonus: you already know the in-laws.