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posted by
martyb
on Sunday July 30 2017, @11:28PM
from the Rosenhan-Milgram-Dunning-Kruger-research dept.
from the Rosenhan-Milgram-Dunning-Kruger-research dept.
From Wikileaks (via Vinay Gupta):
Judge rules two psychologists, Mitchell and Jessen, who made millions as consultants for the CIA's torture program can face trial.
How do you get into the business of being a torture consultant? Good question because when they started:
Neither man had ever carried out a real interrogation, had language skills or expertise on al Qaeda - the chief enemy in the war on terror - when the CIA handpicked Mitchell and Jessen to spearhead its supposed intelligence gathering program shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Their psychology backgrounds were in family therapy; their Ph.D. dissertations were on high blood pressure.
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Millionaire CIA Torture Psychologists to Face Trial
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The last time I saw him he was walking down Lover's Lane holding his own hand.
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(Score: 5, Insightful) by ledow on Monday July 31 2017, @07:18AM (3 children)
If torture is necessary you're doing something incredibly wrong. Your security services have already failed and one man withholding information is enough to bring all your plans crashing down.
If torture-obtained evidence is acceptable in court, your court systems are also open to bribes, threats and blackmail.
If torture is condoned, you're only a short step away from genocide ("Hey, it's alright if we torture the TERRORISTS, that's allowed! It's good people we can't torture!".
If you find someone willing to carry out torture, your species suck (Yep, humans suck).
This is a perfect example of the Milgram experiments.
More disgusting than that torture was ordered from above, or that it took place, is that nobody in the middle said "Hold on, what the fuck?!". Those are the people who saw a request for torture, and linked it up with the nutter willing to torture people.
Which is EXACTLY the thing we prosecuted thousands of Nazi soldiers for. Not that they were following orders. But that they didn't question those orders when it came to obvious breaches of humanity.
And, to me, even worse than that is that all those people are still in charge of places like Guantanamo, still in active service, etc. or - like here - profiting from it.
(Score: 4, Informative) by driverless on Monday July 31 2017, @09:22AM (1 child)
It's not always that easy. A friend of mine was ordered to participate in death squads run by his country's military. He refused the order as being illegal, and tried to get the program stopped by taking it up the chain of command. It was only when he started talking to the media when the military refused to do anything that action was taken: He was threatened with court martial, and eventually discharged on the stipulation that he stop trying to make a fuss about it. It ended a promising military career. One of the bravest things I've seen done by a military person.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by ledow on Monday July 31 2017, @11:07AM
Oh, gosh, all we have to do is put our jobs on the line for our morals, instead!
Er... yes. That's exactly why you don't tolerate this kind of stuff.
Of course you will lose your job.
But that doesn't mean you should allow it "just because you'll lose your job otherwise".
The Nazis were given a standard of "was your life in immediate danger if you refused" as to whether they were co-erced or forced to do things. "You may not work in the military again" is far below that.
Of course it's brave, too, but that's not the point (like Manning/Snowden but for something that actually MATTERED). The point is that they STILL GOT AWAY WITH IT, even with him trying to report it. It still happened. And for him to "stop trying to make a fuss about it" is basically capitulation.
No-one says it's easy to bring down a corrupt government. But if you have to fight against your own morals to go to work each day, there's something wrong.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 31 2017, @07:09PM
Not that the Nazi were perfectly fine, but... you've fallen for the typical propaganda. Stalin was way worse, but he helped write history.
Every successful civilization is built upon a hill of skulls. It's easy for you to abhor genocide, demanding that other civilizations not partake of it, when you yourself benefit from numerous genocides.
Yes, you benefit. You wouldn't even be here if your ancestors hadn't won their fights. When a culture or ethnicity or country fails to acquire and defend territory, it is doomed.
Nazi soldiers were serving honorably. The winners dished out victor's justice. Note that Russian soldiers never had to face trial for slaughtering people in Poland -- winners don't face trial.
Western civilization is facing yet another battle for survival. Western civilization is currently generous to a fault, allowing in large numbers of people who will never accept western values. It will end in genocide, and western civilization will lose unless it gets over the current aversion to genocide.