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posted by FatPhil on Tuesday August 22 2017, @04:37PM   Printer-friendly
from the we-could-tar-and-feather-them dept.

The President of the University of Texas at Austin released a letter regarding the removal of statues on the campus.

[...] The University of Texas at Austin is a public educational and research institution, first and foremost. The historical and cultural significance of the Confederate statues on our campus — and the connections that individuals have with them — are severely compromised by what they symbolize. Erected during the period of Jim Crow laws and segregation, the statues represent the subjugation of African Americans. That remains true today for white supremacists who use them to symbolize hatred and bigotry.

The University of Texas at Austin has a duty to preserve and study history. But our duty also compels us to acknowledge that those parts of our history that run counter to the university's core values, the values of our state and the enduring values of our nation do not belong on pedestals in the heart of the Forty Acres.

The issue isn't a new one, they first looked into the issue in 2015, and had a wide range of options including effectively turning the mall into an open air museum, which they eventually decided against. Should the statues be relocated from their historical context just because of the attitudes and behaviour of noisy minorities? (Your humble editor cannot forget the local riots when a historical but hostile-themed statue was relocated.)


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @07:44PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @07:44PM (#557678)

    If you'll pay very close attention you'll see that the reasoning behind taking these down is in no way about "offensive triggers" and is all about not celebrating racism. Read through this thread, enough people have posted info about when these statues were erected and the cultural reasoning behind them. Should Germany leave up Nazi flags and monuments? Should Spaniards have left statues of Franco standing all over the place? Should Cambodians erect statues of Pol Pot in order to celebrate their history?

    Put them in a Civil War museum, public spaces are for items that celebrate public values. The things we publicly display are 100% declarations of our character, but apparently this is too massive a concept and must be buried under "sjw triggered" nonsense.

    For perspective, would you mind if we erected a statue of Custer at the entrance to your reservation?*

    *given your language usage I am highly doubtful you're telling the truth and it is likely you're making an appeal to authority by claiming oppressed minority status, so responses of "I don't care" mean you're lying or a total moron. If you are not lying I suggest you go to your tribe and take a poll about whether a statue of Custer should be put up in or just outside the res.

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @08:56PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @08:56PM (#557718)

    These statues were built the better part of 140 years ago. We're talking something that happened in your father's father's father's father's father's father's time. At this time scale, these things have become a part of our history.

    Your comparisons are inappropriate since they're all in relation to contemporary events. Countries deciding to begin increasingly large scale destruction of statues built 140 years ago is somewhat unprecedented so far as I know. It's highly illogical and reeks of the current trend of frenzied emotion becoming the status quo of political thought. Logic and calm consideration are being replaced by mindless screams, appeals to emotion, and increasingly often even violence. This is extremely dangerous. Not only from the groups engaged in such behavior, but in the inevitable equal but opposite reaction such extremism always inspires.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @11:20PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday August 22 2017, @11:20PM (#557767)

      Eh, you just try and repeat your point like there is more validity to be had. You're incorrect about the timeframes, there is a wide spread of when they were put up. Beyond that though it doesn't matter when they were put up, what they represent is still antithetical to the stated values of the USA. There is nothing dangerous with removing the statues, save that outrage for book burning assholes or vandals that destroy these statues.

      To me yours are the mindless screams saying "keep these around!" when they fly against modern values paired with the fact that cities aren't destroying anything and are moving removed statues into museums. Whiny children that got a grape flavored popsicle instead of orange.

      I worry much more about the rabid god-emperor sentiment that has some people calling for martial law, along with the president threatening the press and everyone else. Or rabid liberals calling for censorship of "hate" which would send us down a dystopian rabbit hole. Statues? Pfffft, not even on the list.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @01:41PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @01:41PM (#557996)

        Antithetical to the stated values of the USA? The most absolutely fundamental value of the United States is liberty. Statue culling is one step away from book burning. I have no idea what country you think you live in, but freedom does not mean we destroy things or hide them because they be offensive to some.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @03:56PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @03:56PM (#558046)

          Statue culling? You do realize they are being put in museums and other locations and not destroyed right?

          Also, slavery is pretty antithetical to liberty wouldn't you say? Oh right, "civil war wasn't about slavery" lololol

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 24 2017, @02:41PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 24 2017, @02:41PM (#558448)

            The stated purpose of the civil war was an issue of states' rights to self determination. Of course you're right it really was about slavery, but slavery is not an institution that people -the people that actually fight wars instead of start them- would be willing to fight and die for. But states rights and the freedom of self determination are. The stated cause differing from the real cause is of course a regular occurrence in life. Here too, you are convincing yourself that the statues are being removed for "scholary study" (literally the phrasing I found in one news report). But the reality of course has nothing to do with "scholarly study" and is instead little more than a culling. Imagine instead of a book burning, I instead collected all copies of a book and kept them in a warehouse for "scholarly study." Perhaps I even wrote a few documents around the collection.

            Cognitive dissonance is incredibly powerful. Obviously nobody wants to support in a culling of any sort, so we rename it. And now suddenly you can feel good about yourself. You're not the frenzied extremist one step away from book burning, you're just a concerned activist facilitating enhanced educational access. The hundreds of thousands that died in the Civil War undoubtedly went to the grave convincing themselves of similar falsehoods. They were not fighting to enrich a tiny proportion of sociopaths, but fighting for freedom - justice - the right to self determination. All lies, but it's a handy way to make yourself feel better about partaking in horrible actions isn't it?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @04:59AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @04:59AM (#557841)

      not 140 years ago

      Major George W. Littlefield, a banker, Confederate Army officer, rancher, and member of the University of Texas Board of Regents, was the primary contributor and visionary for the Main Mall statues. ... His original concept for the statues, outlined in his will on July 1, 1918, involved creating “a massive bronze arch over the south entrance to the campus.” ... Littlefield died on November 10, 1920. He did not live to see the completion of “a massive bronze arch over the south end of campus.” (from the report cited in the university president's letter [utexas.edu])

  • (Score: 2) by cubancigar11 on Wednesday August 23 2017, @07:00AM (4 children)

    by cubancigar11 (330) on Wednesday August 23 2017, @07:00AM (#557870) Homepage Journal

    Depends. Were the statues of Hitler erected many decades ago? Are they being removed many decades later? Are they to be removed by a generation that didn't even fight in the war? The example of Hitler is spurious at best, and wilfully disingenuous at worst. The war to establish or tear down a statue was fought by a generation that has passed down to history. Is it a good idea to resurrect a historical war? Is that going to bridge any gaps or create another rift ripe for exploitation by politicians?

    Why would a weaker section of society resurrect a historical war? Don't they have real wars to fight now? If not then how are they weak?

    Personally, I am not an American and I don't believe that people were fighting against slavery ever. Or racism. Not even today. I also don't really give 2 hoots about the actual statues or their status. But I am very worried that the so-called paragon of education - the American Universities where rest of the world goes to learn a thing or two - have become a place where questions aren't being allowed or answered. I am worried that social media - a p;lace beholden to whims of rich private entities [inshorts.com] with no oversight or accountability - a place which could well be considered a sinkhole of history - is the only place left to document arguments. That worries me a lot.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @03:59PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @03:59PM (#558047)

      Your worries are based off the ramblings of psychopaths and brainwashed fools.

      • (Score: 2) by cubancigar11 on Wednesday August 23 2017, @06:33PM (2 children)

        by cubancigar11 (330) on Wednesday August 23 2017, @06:33PM (#558114) Homepage Journal

        Okay AC. Everyone is wrong YOU are right.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @10:07PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 23 2017, @10:07PM (#558198)

          ...have become a place where questions aren't being allowed or answered.

          This is just so wrong! There is no massive conspiracy to persecute conservatives, the people that worry about such things tend to get their information from propaganda sources. It isn't EVERYONE is wrong, just you with this overblown worry about censorship / thought crimes / whatever. I imagine the actual scenarios are more like: conservative student tries to bring up ridiculous controversy with no evidence, gets immediately shut down by professor who actually knows what they're talking about. If you want to call that a sinkhole then you're nuts.

          Should a biology teacher allow a student to sidetrack the entire class for an hour trying to debate evolution?

          From my perspective we are in a time period where a lot of ignorance is being washed away, but a small minority of the US population refuses to adapt to this changing world. They are free to believe what they want, but they are not allowed to push their opinions in the academic arena without actual evidence. There are private religious universities for people who want such a curriculum.

          Personally, I am not an American and I don't believe that people were fighting against slavery ever.

          You may not be American, but you should have heard something about the Civil War, Civil Rights Movement, etc. Due to the astoundingly bad statements you have made, well yes, AC is right and you are wrong.

          I will agree that social media and the like is a plague upon actual discussion / debate and we need platforms not controlled by single private entities.

          • (Score: 2) by cubancigar11 on Wednesday August 23 2017, @10:32PM

            by cubancigar11 (330) on Wednesday August 23 2017, @10:32PM (#558204) Homepage Journal

            Your whole premise is wrong because you have not bothered to understand what I am saying. You have invented a whole new straw man of such magnitude - not only you talk about conservatives which I didn't, you talk about persecution of conservatives which also I didn't, but then you talk about conspiracy to persecute and then try to refute that there is no "massive" conspiracy to persecute conservatives. First of all, a conspiracy is not a criteria to persecute someone, just like there was no conspiracy to persecute blacks. You just need apathy and a strong reason to maintain status quo, both of which are there. Secondly, conservative-liberal are a dichotomy upon which no educated person seeking the truth should base his actions. Universities are. The letter itself is all the proof you ever need, talking about values and morals as if these things are set in stone. Didn't Rosa Park win in court? Didn't court itself allow it for hundreds of years? When court of law itself makes or unmakes the definition of what is constitutional or unconstitutional, what authority does a university have to get involved? If 50 years from now there is a resurgence in pro-slavery pro-racist politics, will the statues be re-instated because 'they match with your core belief and values'? What a fucking joke!

            a small minority of the US population refuses to adapt to this changing world

            Considering the amount of bitching and crying it is causing, it doesn't look like a "small minority" to outsiders, you know? Tell you what, when you will drop the politics of hate yourself, you will start to understand what I actually wrote.