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posted by martyb on Saturday August 26 2017, @05:20PM   Printer-friendly

The "Daily Stormer", a neo-Nazi website that has been having trouble staying online since Charlottesville, has once again been shutdown.

According to The Verge:

The neo-Nazi site Daily Stormer briefly returned to the web today, using a new URL and a string of new hosts to dodge the bans that took it off the internet last week. The site reappeared this morning at the address Punished-stormer.com, apparently using Dreamhost as both a host and DNS provider.

[note: url modified]

Shortly after the new site became public, Anonymous groups began a denial-of-service attack against it, targeting the Dreamhost DNS infrastructure that makes the site accessible to the rest of the web. The result was nearly two hours of intermittent downtime for the countless sites using Dreamhost's DNS infrastructure.

In WWII, things like this were called "collateral damage", where innocent casualties were necessary in order to get at the Nazis themselves. But is this sort of action legitimate on the internet? Especially by non-governmental organizations?

Also reported at https://www.wordfence.com/blog/2017/08/dreamhost-ddos-attack/
Related story: https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/21/16180614/charlottesville-daily-stormer-alt-right-internet-domain


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  • (Score: 2) by mhajicek on Saturday August 26 2017, @06:06PM (23 children)

    by mhajicek (51) on Saturday August 26 2017, @06:06PM (#559517)

    One small detail: those civilians were producing resources for the war effort.

    --
    The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   2  
  • (Score: 4, TouchĂ©) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @06:18PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @06:18PM (#559519)

    Unless it's the very young or the very old, civilians always produce resources for the war effort.

  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by hemocyanin on Saturday August 26 2017, @07:04PM (21 children)

    by hemocyanin (186) on Saturday August 26 2017, @07:04PM (#559533) Journal

    That argument legitimizes every terrorist bombing/crowd plowing incident ever committed.

    • (Score: 2, Disagree) by mhajicek on Saturday August 26 2017, @07:56PM (6 children)

      by mhajicek (51) on Saturday August 26 2017, @07:56PM (#559560)

      One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

      --
      The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:23PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:23PM (#559604)

        So the Nazis were freedom fighters? They bombed the crap out of Coventry and London.

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by mhajicek on Sunday August 27 2017, @08:41AM

          by mhajicek (51) on Sunday August 27 2017, @08:41AM (#559745)

          Many of them did indeed believe that what they were doing was right. That's kind of how the world works; everyone thinks they're the good guy and all their enemies are evil.

          --
          The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 27 2017, @01:25AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 27 2017, @01:25AM (#559671)

        Using bombs on children is ALWAYS murder.

        Firebombing children by the tens of thousands is simply evil.

        You are a sociopath.

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by mhajicek on Sunday August 27 2017, @08:39AM (2 children)

          by mhajicek (51) on Sunday August 27 2017, @08:39AM (#559744)

          Then the USA is an evil terrorist organization. Our government sends drones to bomb thousands of innocent women and children, yet every one gets all huffy if one of their surviving relatives kills a couple of our people in retaliation.

          --
          The spacelike surfaces of time foliations can have a cusp at the surface of discontinuity. - P. Hajicek
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 27 2017, @10:03AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 27 2017, @10:03AM (#559770)

            I seriously doubt that OriginalOwner would take issue with calling the US (Government) an evil terrorist organization. Not sure how one could really argue against that, other than "They aren't evil against me(yet)".

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday August 26 2017, @08:08PM (13 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday August 26 2017, @08:08PM (#559566) Journal

      That argument legitimizes every terrorist bombing/crowd plowing incident ever committed.

      Because those peoples' labor was essential to the war effort against the freedom fighters? I don't think you quite get what the argument is.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by JNCF on Saturday August 26 2017, @08:34PM (12 children)

        by JNCF (4317) on Saturday August 26 2017, @08:34PM (#559576) Journal

        I don't think you quite get what the argument is.

        I think he does. I think that's backed up by mhajicek's response, just above you. Their disagreement seems, to me, to be over whether the ends can justify the means. Where mhajicek is ready to push the red button, hemocyanin blinks.

        • (Score: 4, Informative) by aristarchus on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:01PM (11 children)

          by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:01PM (#559596) Journal

          The Just War Tradition made a distinction between combatants and non-combatants even when it come to material support. An armorer or swordsmith might be considered as directly contributing to the combat effectiveness of a soldier, but the farmer or tailor who only supplied to the soldier what was necessary to him as a human being was not taken to be materially supporting the war effort. So, in modern industrial warfare, ball-bearing plants, OK. Powdered milk factory? Off-limits. Don't trust khallow on matters like these. His thinking seems both dangerously twisted and naively ignorant.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:54PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 26 2017, @10:54PM (#559618)

            Don't trust khallow on matters like these. His thinking seems both dangerously twisted and naively ignorant.

            That's unfair. It never happens with khallow, for the simple reason he's not thinking, he's reflex arching.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 27 2017, @04:17AM (7 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 27 2017, @04:17AM (#559702) Journal

            Don't trust khallow on matters like these.

            And yet you don't actually disagree on what little I wrote here. These frivolous games are tiresome, aristarchus.

            but the farmer or tailor who only supplied to the soldier what was necessary to him as a human being was not taken to be materially supporting the war effort.

            Who only supplied the soldier what was necessary for the soldier to continue to wage war. Clothes and food have long been as necessary to an army as its weapons. Wars have been lost over the inability to provide these (a key example is Napoleon's failed invasion of Russia in 1812 which was the decisive turning point in the Napoleonic wars, both lack of food and winter clothing were key contributors to the destruction of the French army).

            • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Sunday August 27 2017, @09:35AM (6 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday August 27 2017, @09:35AM (#559758) Journal

              Historically ignorant as usual, khallow! Why do not you just go back to school and study something beside math? A little history, some literature, legal theory, god forbid even art? You are a crippled man, your vision is too constricted by your lack of learning. What I said is true of the Just War Tradition, which ended more or less with the Religious wars of the 16th Century, particularly the Thirty Years War, ending with the Treaty of Westphalia. If you were not so ignorant, you would know that.
                      The regime of the ius gentium took over after that, but preserved many of the same principles. Not until WWI did the idea of Totalen Krieg [archive.org] come to the fore, courtesy of several corporations, and fore shadowed by the Great Conflict in America, which did indeed provide a template. So now, Nazis? Spouting Confederate ideology? And this does not make sense to you? As has been said before here on SN:

              "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." was allegedly spoken by Papal legate and Cistercian abbot Arnaud Amalric prior to the massacre at BĂ©ziers, the first major military action of the Albigensian Crusade.

              And chance you are related to this Arnaud, [wikipedia.org] khallow?

              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Sunday August 27 2017, @12:27PM (5 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Sunday August 27 2017, @12:27PM (#559810) Journal

                What I said is true of the Just War Tradition, which ended more or less with the Religious wars of the 16th Century, particularly the Thirty Years War, ending with the Treaty of Westphalia.

                And yet we see the continuation of the "Just War" ideal with the Geneva Conventions. Those came well after the 16th Century.

                Not until WWI did the idea of Totalen Krieg [archive.org] come to the fore, courtesy of several corporations, and fore shadowed by the Great Conflict in America, which did indeed provide a template.

                Corporations like the French Third Republic or the German Empire which actually implemented said idea of total war. And your link is to a speech by Joseph Goebbels in 1943. At that time, he represented no private corporation, but instead was the Reich Minister of Propaganda for Nazi Germany during the whole of its existence. This is cluelessness at its most refined.

                • (Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Sunday August 27 2017, @01:25PM (4 children)

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Sunday August 27 2017, @01:25PM (#559823) Journal

                  This is cluelessness at its most refined.

                  Well, you are a Connoisseur. Enjoy! But do check your history. Nothing of Just War in Geneva. Perogative of nation-states, and all that.

                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 28 2017, @12:24AM (3 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 28 2017, @12:24AM (#559977) Journal

                    Nothing of Just War in Geneva.

                    Words without meaning. We can instead look at the characteristics of Just War and see the following [wikipedia.org]:

                    Once war has begun, just war theory (Jus in bello) also directs how combatants are to act or should act:

                    Distinction

                    Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of distinction. The acts of war should be directed towards enemy combatants, and not towards non-combatants caught in circumstances they did not create. The prohibited acts include bombing civilian residential areas that include no legitimate military targets, committing acts of terrorism and reprisal against civilians, and attacking neutral targets (e.g., the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor). Moreover, combatants are not permitted to attack enemy combatants who have surrendered or who have been captured or who are injured and not presenting an immediate lethal threat or who are parachuting from disabled aircraft (except airborne forces) or who are shipwrecked.

                    Proportionality

                    Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of proportionality. Combatants must make sure that the harm caused to civilians or civilian property is not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated by an attack on a legitimate military objective. This principle is meant to discern the correct balance between the restriction imposed by a corrective measure and the severity of the nature of the prohibited act.

                    Military necessity

                    Just war conduct should be governed by the principle of military necessity. An attack or action must be intended to help in the defeat of the enemy; it must be an attack on a legitimate military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. This principle is meant to limit excessive and unnecessary death and destruction.

                    Fair treatment of prisoners of war

                    Enemy combatants who surrendered or who are captured no longer pose a threat. It is therefore wrong to torture them or otherwise mistreat them.

                    No means malum in se

                    Combatants may not use weapons or other methods of warfare that are considered evil, such as mass rape, forcing enemy combatants to fight against their own side or using weapons whose effects cannot be controlled (e.g., nuclear/biological weapons).

                    Every single item on this list found its way into the Geneva Conventions in some form.

                    • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday August 28 2017, @12:37AM (2 children)

                      by aristarchus (2645) on Monday August 28 2017, @12:37AM (#559981) Journal

                      Very good, khallow! Now, can you do the same for ius ad bellum and relate it all to DDOS attacks on a computer network? That would be very helpful.

                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Monday August 28 2017, @02:02AM (1 child)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Monday August 28 2017, @02:02AM (#560012) Journal
                        I see no need to. I'm done with this conversation.
                        • (Score: 2) by aristarchus on Monday August 28 2017, @04:42AM

                          by aristarchus (2645) on Monday August 28 2017, @04:42AM (#560052) Journal

                          No, you're not! Get back here, khallow! We are not done with your education yet! Oh, crap, where did callow run off to? I hope he's not hanging with the Nazis and white supremes again.