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posted by Fnord666 on Friday September 01 2017, @10:56AM   Printer-friendly
from the monumental-decisions dept.

Submitted via IRC for TheMightyBuzzard

U.S. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke said on Thursday he has sent recommendations from his review of more than two dozen national monuments to President Donald Trump, indicating that some could be scaled back to allow for more hunting and fishing and economic development.

The recommendations follow a 120-day study of 27 national monuments across the country, created by presidents since 1996, that Trump ordered in April as part of his broader effort to increase development on federal lands.

The review has cheered energy, mining, ranching and timber advocates but has drawn widespread criticism and threats of lawsuits from conservation groups and the outdoor recreation industry.

There were fears that Zinke would recommend the outright elimination of some of the monuments on the list, but on Thursday, speaking to the Associated Press in Billings, Montana, he said he will not recommend eliminating any.

Zinke said in a statement that the recommendations would "provide a much needed change for the local communities who border and rely on these lands for hunting and fishing, economic development, traditional uses, and recreation." He did not specify which monuments he plans to recommend be scaled back.

The Associated Press reported that Zinke said he would recommend changing the boundaries for a "handful" of sites.

If you're taking millions of acres off the table for one site, you fail at knowing the definition of a monument.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-interior-monuments-idUSKCN1B41YA

Also at RT, CNN, The Washington Post and The Hill.


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  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Friday September 01 2017, @02:26PM (38 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 01 2017, @02:26PM (#562512) Journal

    Profit is not a dirty word.

    But Profit is NOT absolutely NOT the only reason to do things. Some things are immensely valuable to society, both today and for future generations. Some things are worth preserving.

    It's not like the companies are going out of business if they don't get to strip mine every undeveloped national monument or natural resource on the planet.

    You mention Space has all the resources. Clue: the space program of the 1960's was immensely expensive. And there was no profit motive driving it to achieve great things. Yet out of it flowed all kinds of economic benefits both in terms of jobs created to support the space programs, and technology spin offs that flowed into all other areas of society and kickstarted the IC and microprocessor revolution.

    The Interstate project is not directly profitable to the government or anyone. But it also created enormous economic benefits.

    Now preserving some lands may not have economic benefits, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. The benefits may not be directly understandable at the time of the doing. (eg, space program, and interstate for moving military supplies rapidly) But preventing various species extinction might prove to be valuable in the not so distant future.

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
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  • (Score: 0, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:42PM (26 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:42PM (#562518)

    You're saying it's profitable to preserve something; future generations would find it to be a loss of wealth were it not preserved. Of course, that's your opinion; numbers can help back up your claim—which often leads to calculations in terms of money.

    You're saying the Interstate Project has been profitable; of course, maybe some other, more organically grown, market-driven system of transportation would have been even more profitable (private money tends not to support bridges to nowhere).

    Satellite communications and navigation technology has been very profitable for society; of course, it's pretty stupid to develop satnav by trying to plant a flag on the moon, rather than to plant a flag on the moon after developing highly profitable space technology. Sure, maybe NASA's work has yielded a 10x return, but a market-driven approach may have yielded a 1000x return—and may have resulted in designs for moon colonies or asteroid mining rather than earth-bound ICBMs. Get it, yet?

    Your bank balance is just one way to measure profit; to say that you "want society to improve" is to say that you "want society to profit".

    Profit is never dirty; profit is everything.

    • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:49PM (22 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:49PM (#562520)

      This website is terrible for discussion; the moderation is horrifically biased, and hides comments that are perfectly legitimate.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:00PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:00PM (#562526)

        All you're doing is repeating your argument and twisting everything as somehow supporting your idea. What do you expect when you ignore other people's points and just re-iterate what you already said? Intellectual dishonesty, you can't face your personal axiom having failed.

        Perhaps the actual problem here is that you are applying "profit" in the absolute most general sense: An advantageous gain or return; benefit.
        If so, then you should broaden your vocabulary, because to most people profit is tied into economics.

        Example: a state park. Everyone would be served perfectly well if the parks generated zero profit. Pay the rangers and their costs, but no one should be getting money for simply owning the parks. The park is still a net benefit to humanity, but it is more beneficial if the prices don't include paying some rich dude to sit on his ass and do nothing except keep a deed in his desk. Many countries with massively more socialized programs are doing quite well.

        Don't want to be marked redundant? Stop trying to force your beliefs on to everyone else. Try listening to their arguments and growing beyond your own narrow view.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:10PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:10PM (#562531)

          With regard to forcing beliefs on anyone else, I'm not the one who looks to pull the levers of government to effect my world view; hell, I'm not even the one moderating others.

          With regard to your "zero profit" scheme, see the prior comment [soylentnews.org]; you'll notice it has already been discussed—maybe you should actually "try listening to their arguments and growing beyond your own narrow view".

          How is "tied into economics" defeating any argument? You're just using other words to make it sound like you've said something novel.

          To me, it looks like your own personal axioms are failing, and that you cannot handle it.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:18PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:18PM (#562536)

            Nice projection bud, way to evade personal responsibility. I read your arguments and found them limited. Not wrong, but incomplete. All you're doing here is playing "I know you are but what am I?"

        • (Score: 4, Interesting) by tangomargarine on Friday September 01 2017, @03:31PM

          by tangomargarine (667) on Friday September 01 2017, @03:31PM (#562544)

          Profit is the only reason to do anything.
          Either actions create wealth, or they don't; either your actions are profitable, or they aren't

          Perhaps the actual problem here is that you are applying "profit" in the absolute most general sense: An advantageous gain or return; benefit.

          It's called moving the goalposts (but I'm sure you already knew that). Start out with the definition of profit that nobody can mistake for cashy monies, then when called on it say, "haha, I was talking general benefit all along!"

          Horseshit. No you (they) weren't.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
      • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:01PM (17 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:01PM (#562528)

        Nothing is hidden -- just browse at -1.
        I use the mod system to rate the audience, not the posts (except for the obvious off-topic or spam posts).

        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Friday September 01 2017, @03:28PM (16 children)

          by tangomargarine (667) on Friday September 01 2017, @03:28PM (#562542)

          I use the mod system to rate the audience, not the posts (except for the obvious off-topic or spam posts).

          Then you're blatantly doing it wrong. jmorris et al. occasionally make good points, but under your system we would never see them because they'd be voted down anyway.

          --
          "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:49PM (13 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:49PM (#562555)

            You missed the bit where I browse at -1.
            I see everything, even the "jmorris et al." posts that are sometimes down-modded.

            • (Score: 3, Funny) by tangomargarine on Friday September 01 2017, @03:51PM (1 child)

              by tangomargarine (667) on Friday September 01 2017, @03:51PM (#562557)

              Good for you, Mr. Selfish, but you're damaging everyone else's SN experience.

              --
              "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:59PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:59PM (#562591)

                Moral dilemma: no one should be modded down for an identity, the value of their words should stand for themselves.

                Problem: but its jmorris!!

                Result: Ok ok, bigotry is fine, but just this ONE TIME!

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:03PM (10 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:03PM (#562565)

              I also browse at -1, but I use modding for the sake of others, not myself. I don't even understand the compulsion to leave anonymous moderation, if not to affect the experience of others. </anonymous virtue signalling>

              • (Score: 1, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday September 01 2017, @06:48PM (9 children)

                by aristarchus (2645) on Friday September 01 2017, @06:48PM (#562660) Journal

                I don't even understand the compulsion to leave anonymous moderation, if not to affect the experience of others. [/anonymous virtue signalling]

                Boy, I wish I [soylentnews.org] could do this!

                • (Score: 2, Offtopic) by The Mighty Buzzard on Friday September 01 2017, @10:16PM (8 children)

                  by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Friday September 01 2017, @10:16PM (#562743) Homepage Journal

                  Use the Spam moderation for spam instead of "making a point" and you could.

                  --
                  My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:23AM (7 children)

                    by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:23AM (#562799) Journal

                    There you go again, Buzz! Spamming the forum with redundant comments about the spam mod! If I could mod, I might have to mod this spam, just to make a point, again.

                    • (Score: 4, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:41AM (6 children)

                      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:41AM (#562804) Homepage Journal

                      Second offense is six months, just in case you were wondering.

                      --
                      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                      • (Score: 1, Insightful) by aristarchus on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:48AM (5 children)

                        by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 02 2017, @01:48AM (#562807) Journal

                        So, will you stop spamming SoylentNews with your incessant hall-monitoring?

                        • (Score: 3, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday September 02 2017, @02:42AM

                          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday September 02 2017, @02:42AM (#562818) Homepage Journal

                          Nope, that's what I get paid the big bucks for. I even have an official vest and everything.

                          --
                          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                        • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 02 2017, @03:42AM (3 children)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 02 2017, @03:42AM (#562837)

                          You really, and truly, need to change your name. Or, was the real Aristarchus a petty whining bitch too? Have you ever suffered a hardship more severe than being deprived of moderation privileges for a few days? What a spoiled, pampered fuck you are.

                          • (Score: 1, Troll) by aristarchus on Saturday September 02 2017, @09:48AM (2 children)

                            by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 02 2017, @09:48AM (#562889) Journal

                            You, oh pampered by anonymity AC, need to change your name! Who are you to even address one such as I? Let alone the The Mighty Buzzard, who is Mighty? And of course, being the historically illiterate AC that you are, you do not comprehend the seriousness of the current stuggle! You probably would have gone with Chamberlain to Berlin, in search of "peace in our time", and let the Nazis mod-ban the Jews, the Communists, the Gays, the Roma, and the Catholics with balls! Wouldn't you? Oh, if my "whining" in defense of free speech and justice offends thee, pluck out thy, . . . well, pluck out something. Those of us working for social justice have no time for the annoyed. So we will continue posting here. Even if we must spam mod the Migratory Bandsaw one hundred times, even if we have to suffer mod-bans of months, or sixes of months, or shadow-bans and IP blocking, we will continue, because history is on our side. The right wing know this, it is why they have gone daft and extreme. I mean, seriously, Nazis and KKK and Militias from the '70s? CosPlay, dude! And Trump.

                              You may not be aware of the history of Samos. This island birthed many of the greatest minds of its era, including Pythagoras, Epicurus, Melissus, Aesop, and myself. You seem not to be aware that Pythagoras, the man who invented the term "philosophy", was forced to hide in a cave on Mount Kerkis, because the tyrant Polycrates tried to mod-ban him, or at least the ancient equivalent. So do not be surprised that the Sons of Samos are the First in Revolution in the Name of Justice, even here on SoylentNews, against the tyrant TMB. Really, it is no problem to me. I feel no pain, or even harm. Just concern for the dream that was SoylentNews, back when we started this adventure together. Or were you not there, AC?

                            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Saturday September 02 2017, @04:38PM

                              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Saturday September 02 2017, @04:38PM (#562959) Homepage Journal

                              Look, man, you spammed. Someone saw it and correctly moderated it. Learn something for once instead of acting like a petulant child.

                              I didn't moderate you. I just refused to reverse legit moderation. I didn't mod-ban you either. I just shook my head, said "dumbass", and went on with my day.

                              You want someone to have a vendetta against, go for it. You're not going to get any help with that from me though. I happen to enjoy reading ~95% of what you have to say here. The rest I just say "meh" and go on to the next comment.

                              --
                              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
                            • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Sunday September 03 2017, @10:57AM

                              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Sunday September 03 2017, @10:57AM (#563113) Journal

                              "This island birthed many of the greatest minds of its era"

                              Thank God and Evolution that we aren't relying on those Greeks to do our thinking today! How's that Greek economy doing, anyway?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:14PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:14PM (#562569)

            jmorris et al. occasionally make good points, but under your system we would never see them because they'd be voted down anyway.

            Actually, I'm quite certain I could live a full and meaningful life without ever having seen any of jmorris' comments. By my reckoning, jmorris' comments (and those of a few notable others) could disappear into a black hole and nothing of value would be lost. YMMV.

            • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Saturday September 02 2017, @09:51AM

              by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday September 02 2017, @09:51AM (#562890) Journal

              Of all the comments I missed modding up while my unjust mod-ban was in place, I think I shall miss this one the most. So true, so succinct, so nobly phrased! Well done, Anonymous Coward, well done!

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by DannyB on Friday September 01 2017, @05:16PM (2 children)

      by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Friday September 01 2017, @05:16PM (#562602) Journal

      The interstate project was of economic benefit in hindsight. It was for national security when it started.

      Space satellites have been of enormous economic benefit in hindsight. During the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs, profit and economic benefits were not seen.

      Prior to Apollo there wasn't any significant market for space. It was enormously expensive to get something into orbit. A lot of that was the R&D costs of developing launch vehicles. And a huge number of unknowns that the moon shot program solved -- at great cost. No telecom company would think, hey let's put up a telecom satellite. All we have to do first is spend many billions of dollars to develop a way to launch it. And to research how to even build a satellite that can withstand the environment of space.

      Profit isn't dirty, per se. But it's not the only reason to do everything. Having families and children is not profitable.

      There is a word for thinking that everything revolves around profit. Psychopath. And some CEOs are.

      If profit drives everything, then why don't we just strip mine the entire planet until it is totally uninhabitable. Think of the profits!

      If you just want the profit above all, organized crime is the end point, so why not just skip all the middle steps and start with organized crime? There are reasons why we have government. It is to protect the public good, while allowing everyone to pursue happiness (and profit).

      --
      People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 02 2017, @12:53AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 02 2017, @12:53AM (#562793)

        Satellites for the purpose of communications were one of the very first things proposed for space technology. You're just pulling shit out of your arse.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday September 02 2017, @05:15PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 02 2017, @05:15PM (#562969) Journal

        The interstate project was of economic benefit in hindsight.

        This is nonsense as well. Eisenhower became a big fan of the idea after he saw the autobahns after the Second World War. Sure, it has military application, but it's obvious that an efficient nation-wide transportation system will have massive economic benefits as well.

        Profit isn't dirty, per se. But it's not the only reason to do everything. Having families and children is not profitable.

        And yet parents value their children more than they do the resources consumed in raising those children. That is what profit is about, whether the specific financial version or the general one, getting more out than you put in.

  • (Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday September 01 2017, @02:45PM (9 children)

    by hemocyanin (186) on Friday September 01 2017, @02:45PM (#562519) Journal

    Aside from "because it is beautiful" -- which ought to be enough -- there are other arguments for open space such as the fact that such spaces clean the air and water -- two things that without, profit is irrelevant. They also provide a place for occasional excess water to collect, a benefit that protects profit in developed areas and that benefit should be obvious to anyone who has heard of Harvey.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:52PM (8 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @02:52PM (#562522)

      You're saying this: Those open spaces are profitable for society.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:37PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:37PM (#562549)

        I liked this response [soylentnews.org]

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:54PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:54PM (#562559)

          It doesn't match this situation.

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:50PM (5 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:50PM (#562556)

        WE GET IT, you enjoy MISUSING the word profitable, and it appears you are doing it to push your own POV that everything is and should be about profit.

        No one else here agrees with your definition of the word. You are not going to convince people other wise. So at this point its just trolling, so STOP IT.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:58PM (4 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @03:58PM (#562561)

          Would you profit if I stopped? How many bitcoins would you send me in exchange for stopping?

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:49PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @04:49PM (#562584)

            Well I bothered to log in and counteract what I thought was an incorrect flamebait mod. I will now probably join people in modding you troll.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @05:16PM (2 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @05:16PM (#562599)

              Please, explain.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @05:26PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @05:26PM (#562611)

                I corrected what I thought to be a faulty moderation. Upon further reflection I see that you are simply restating your primary idea of profit == everything. Enough people have posted legitimate responses and demonstrated that "profit" does not cover everything, and that you are using the general and specific definitions of profit to suit your purposes.

                I will now mod such submissions as trolls since they ignore valid arguments and simply restate the assumption that profit == everything. When using the general and specific definitions at will you can wrap everything into the general and then "logically" tie it to the specific business profit definition.

                To further explain, it is like you are copy/pasting the same argument over and over, no variation and no valid critiques of counter arguments. This is trollish behavior, spamming a message to try and force engagement. A few people have already commented that you are intentionally doing this, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and explaining the situation.

                • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @08:29PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 01 2017, @08:29PM (#562704)

                  Their arguments haven't been ignored; they've been rebutted (and, indeed, invalidated).

  • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Saturday September 02 2017, @04:09AM

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Saturday September 02 2017, @04:09AM (#562844) Journal

    "ut Profit is NOT absolutely NOT the only reason to do things."

    Double negatives? So, you actually agree with GP? I are getting confused, LOL.

    I'm just kidding, really, but double negatives attract my attention.