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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday September 06 2017, @02:46PM   Printer-friendly
from the dunk-it-in-milk dept.

Google is using the boiling frog method to exclude power users and custom ROMS from android.

A new feature in Android 8.0 Oreo, called "Rollback Protection" and included in the "Verified Boot" changes, will prevent a device from booting should it be rolled back to an earlier firmware. The detailed information is here.

As it rejects an image if its "rollback index" is inferior than the one in "tamper evident storage", any attempts to install a previous version of the official, signed ROM will make the device unbootable. Much like iOS (without the rollback grace period) or the extinct Lumias. It is explained in the recommended boot workflow and notes below, together with some other "smart" ideas.

Now, this might seem like a good idea at first, but let's just just imagine this on a PC. It would mean no easy roll back from windows 10 to 7 after a forced installation, and doing that or installing linux would mean a unreasonably complex bootloader unlocking, with all your data wiped. Add safetynet to the mix, and you would also be blocked from watching netflix or accessing your banking sites if you dared to install linux or rollback windows.

To add insult to injury, unlocked devices will stop booting for at least 10 seconds to show some paternalist message on how unlocking is bad for your health - "If the device has a screen and buttons (for example if it's a phone) the warning is to be shown for at least 10 seconds before the boot process continues."

Now, and knowing that most if not all android bootloaders have vulnerabilities/backdoors, how can this be defended, even with the "security/think of the children" approach? This has no advantages other than making it hard for users to install ROMs or to revert to a previous official ROM to restore missing functionality.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:32PM (52 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:32PM (#564163)

    This means no more android devices for me.

    So what are you going to use then? An Apple? Did you not notice how they already do the exact same thing? (And worse, there's *never* been a possibility of having an open-source ROM for an iPhone, unlike Android devices.) Microsoft is out since they've finally abandoned the Windows Phone platform. Is Blackberry still around?

    Yeah, Google is definitely evil. But they're no more evil than Apple, and really a little less AFAICT (though this is a lot like arguing over who's worse, Hitler or Stalin).

    As tech people the "end users" look to it is our duty to speak out, to warn.

    Oh bullshit.

    1) First, who's "we"? A bunch of us are complicit in this, and are happy fanboys and sycophants of Apple and Microsoft and (to a lesser extent IMO) Google. I see strong support for Microsoft and Apple in particular all the time on tech forums like this. Only a fraction of us tech people actually believe the way you do, though admittedly the proportion is probably far higher here on SN than on someplace like HN (there's a lot of MS lovers on there, likely many employees). But SN is a *puny* site compared to other tech forums; there's FAR more posts in a day on HN than here, and that site doesn't even have much political talk on it the way this site does.

    2) Those of us who agree with your sentiment *have* been speaking out. No one listens, and says we're crazy. When our predictions come true, they just say "oh, that sucks" and continue on supporting these big evil tech companies instead of changing their ways, because that's too inconvenient.

    Honestly, at this point, I'm not sure what can be done. You can try to support efforts like LineageOS as long as they're able to operate, and stick with older hardware that works with that. But that'll only work for so long; hardware gets old and breaks (these are mobile devices after all), and spare parts and replacements get harder and harder to find. Maybe someone needs to start a company making comparable phones in China with mostly open-source software that can have alternative ROMs loaded (the radio firmware probably can't be open-source, but that's OK; we don't really care about that, just like we don't usually care about the firmware on a WiFi radio in our PC, we just want it to work with Linux), and which can somehow use the Google Play store and load Android apps, even if that's against Google's policies. But the market for this is likely to be small, and dealing with the constant technical roadblocks likely to be erected by Google would be a full-time job for multiple people.

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  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:58PM (11 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:58PM (#564175)

    I've never needed or used any mobile device. Behaving like they are a necessity is part of the problem that allows companies to be so abusive in that sector.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:44PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:44PM (#564198)

      Pffft, you can try and ignore popular trends and declare them stupid but that is ignorant and arrogant at the same time.

      Mobiles are insanely convenient, the only downside being that they are so centrally controlled. That is an easily fixed problem, but it would pretty much require eliminating the concept of authorized devices. This means that the concept of ISP needs to become public infrastructure like roads.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:32AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:32AM (#564344)

        but that is ignorant and arrogant at the same time.

        It is neither. People survived perfectly fine without them before and so can I. I might use them if they weren't designed from the beginning to be spy devices and locked-down proprietary garbage, but that sadly is not the case

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:56PM

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:56PM (#564616) Journal

        "that is ignorant and arrogant at the same time."

        Translation: Pointing out my foolishness demonstrates your ignorance and arrogance.

        Come on, dude, your life does NOT depend on some stupid electronic device. Well - not unless you wear a pacemaker or some similar device. It's just a phone.

    • (Score: 2) by Fnord666 on Wednesday September 06 2017, @06:11PM (7 children)

      by Fnord666 (652) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @06:11PM (#564215) Homepage

      I've never needed or used any mobile device. Behaving like they are a necessity is part of the problem that allows companies to be so abusive in that sector.

      How much is a call from a pay phone these days, assuming you can find one?

      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:54PM (5 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:54PM (#564260)

        Um, that last part really is your answer. You can't find one. I can't even remember the last time I saw a pay phone that was in working order.

        If you need to call someone and you're not at home and don't have a cellphone, your options are to beg a stranger to borrow their phone, or go into a business and beg them to use their phone. Not really a good position to be in, especially if you have an emergency.

        The parent's logic is idiotic. You could say the same thing about cars, electricity, etc. The reason companies are so abusive in this sector is because of a lack of proper governmental regulation, which is the exact reason our electricity is reliable and cheap: we *do* have proper regulation there for the most part.

        • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:58PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:58PM (#564293)

          the government will save us? lmao!

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:53PM

            by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:53PM (#564314)

            This is starting to look like a legit case where some sort of minimal government regulation is going to be needed. We would never accept Ford selling cars that only burn Ford gas, have locks on the hood only certified Ford tech can open, etc. No, we passed laws mandating standards for interoperability and 3rd party parts and service. We need to do likewise for computing devices.

            Locks should be permissible only when the final end customer gets to control it. A card with a QR code with a master key to control the boot keyring for example. Let it ship with a key for Google, the handset maker and even the carrier, but if you bought it you get the power to revoke em all and install your own, although that might mean installing your own OS. In the case of a carrier owned phone, they could keep the key until you pay off the loan since you could lock them entirely out of property that is still theirs but would have to fully disclose it.

            Then forbid deals which function exactly like the person walking around with the phone is the owner but technically they don't own anything so don't get the keys. No open ended leases, forced rentals, etc. unless an actual monthly fee is being paid, damage is covered and you can turn in the phone under agreed to conditions.

            Finally, at least make threatening noises about fully documenting hardware again. Might not want to pull the trigger on a mandate just yet, at least see if ANY vendor would do it first. If none will, pretty obvious there is unseen influence at work so smash it.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:34AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:34AM (#564345)

          The parent's logic is not idiotic. You can work to have the government add new regulations to stop harmful behavior while also refusing to use devices that do not respect your freedoms; that's what I do.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @02:37AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @02:37AM (#564384)

          > You could say the same thing about cars, electricity, etc.

          Let me introduce you to a very happy Amish family that I know...

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:57PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:57PM (#564617) Journal

          "a lack of proper governmental regulation"

          Everything is properly regulated in North Korea, isn't it?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by edIII on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:03PM

        by edIII (791) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:03PM (#564264)

        There are practically none left. The bus station which I walk past quite often ripped out their payphone a few weeks ago. It has not been replaced. Other than that one, I cannot recall seeing one anywhere else.

        That being said, there is some hospitality left in this dead rotting carcass of a country. I've been asked, and I've asked, for the use of a cellphone by people I come across. Businesses these days don't have too much of a problem to borrow their landline for a second. Restaurants are usually pretty cool like that.

        A payphone would only be if you couldn't find a cellphone, and you also happen to have a bunch of quarters on you. You know, because of all the arcades that still exist too that take quarters :)

        --
        Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:59PM (8 children)

    by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @03:59PM (#564176)

    So what are you going to use then? An Apple?

    Apple? Oh Hell no! Don't know yet. Probably have to research and lock in a "last" phone soon and wait to see what happens. One of the "Free / Open Source" phone projects might ship product for a non-insane price. Ok, not likely but the list of options dwindles. A burner phone or MiFi + a tablet is an option for mobile computing. Been seeing the "secure computing"[1] problem getting worse now for a decade, looks like it is nearing the terminal stage. The idea is to leave us no viable choices, the question is whether enough people care enough to fight that future.

    And tie this fight to the one companies like Google and Apple are waging against "wrong think" in other areas, expect any serious[2] project to liberate hardware to be demonitized, banned from PayPal, etc. If they are willing to wield those weapons against political opponents, expect it against economic threats with even greater fury.

    The quiet efforts to ensure zero existing hardware makers are willing to build hardware with an unlockable boot will be exactly like Microsoft's worst years of hammering any OEM who dared to offer a machine without the Microsoft Tax. Seriously, in a "free market" one vendor would offer a "special edition" of one of their handsets with an unlocked boot simply because the phone space is crowded and it would be a moderate seller. This will not happen even though the project would consist of screen printing a cute logo onto the case, putting a sticker on the retail box and a day of coding effort. Not one has appeared to date, not one will appear. The recent entries in the Nexus line is close but no cigar and it appears those days are done anyway.

    [1] Secure computing has always been a loaded term. Secure from who? Secured for who? Always left unstated, almost always hostile to the actual end customer.

    [2] Serious, not some three guy operation that probably won't succeed or ship overpriced underpowered hardware three years two years late and five years out of date. Diverting opposition safely into such efforts is a win.

    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:25PM (4 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:25PM (#564191)

      And tie this fight to the one companies like Google and Apple are waging against "wrong think" in other areas, expect any serious[2] project to liberate hardware to be demonitized, banned from PayPal, etc. If they are willing to wield those weapons against political opponents, expect it against economic threats with even greater fury.

      Now this I'm a little skeptical of. PayPal has banned political groups because they're extremists, and they really don't want to be associated with them, or get into some kind of trouble with the government by helping provide funds for them, or being fodder for a lawsuit by anyone harmed by those groups. Like any normal large corporation, they're *extremely* risk-averse, for good reason, so they simply refuse to do business with entities that are liable to cause problems. However, "liberated" hardware is a little different, since it's not a political group, it's a product. The main issue I foresee is if somehow these incumbent companies get liberated hardware to basically be banned, because of IP law, and so it becomes illegal to import it. I'm not really sure how they'd succeed here as long as they aren't actually breaking copyrights or trademarks etc., and IIRC, Blackberry used to (or do they still?) allow loading Android apps and that was obviously perfectly legal, just like it's legal to run a Windows application under WINE on Linux, as long as you have a valid license for the Windows app. Perhaps Google preventing access to the Play Store with some BS ToS will be how they try to ban the devices. But even here, surely a workaround can be developed: ship the phones without any such access, and make them completely separate from Google's ecosystem, but then make it fairly easy to load up some additional software once you have the device in your hand, which then gives you access to Google's Play Store in contravention of the ToS. Surely they can't ban a physical device just because you can get on the internet and download some software for it; if that were the case, then Microsoft Windows should be illegal because of the availability of pirated software.

      The quiet efforts to ensure zero existing hardware makers are willing to build hardware with an unlockable boot will be exactly like Microsoft's worst years of hammering any OEM who dared to offer a machine without the Microsoft Tax.

      Yeah, but things are a little different now. Those OEMs were all companies with a significant American presence, and frequently American ownership. These days, there's countless Chinese manufacturers with no American presence whatsoever. Just look at all the stuff you can buy on Aliexpress from some vendor with a Chinese name. They're not going to give a shit about some American company's efforts at pressuring them. Seriously, get on Aliexpress.com and search for "phone"; there's countless models there from companies I've never heard of. The main problem I see is getting one of them interested in putting out a liberated version.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Wednesday September 06 2017, @11:07PM (3 children)

        by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @11:07PM (#564321)

        PayPal has banned political groups because they're extremists...

        So? Stormfront, Antifa (well maybe not them now that they are a designated terror org) and the SPLC are all vile organizations but they can walk into the doors of any brick and mortar bank and open an account. They are assured of this ability because that sort of non-discrimination is part of the laws regulating FDIC insured banks. PayPal is an FDIC insured bank too, what gives them these special rights they are asserting to be exempt from the law? Obama of course had perverted the banks so they could refuse service to enemies of The Party but that has been reversed, all banks must again serve all customers who aren't criminals. Of course they spy on them for law enforcement but that is an entirely different debate.

        And guess what? Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are going to get regulated as utilities eventually and be barred from discriminating. Because they are utilities in everything but official government designation already. The electric company can't decide it doesn't want to service scum like SPLC and disconnect their lights. The trash company can't decide Anglin is just too extreme and leave dailystormer's trash out on the curb to stink. But godaddy (and every single competitor... no collusion here) can suddenly decide it can't track their DNS record? On what planet is this sort of nonsense sustainable?

        • (Score: 2) by J053 on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:11AM (1 child)

          by J053 (3532) <dakineNO@SPAMshangri-la.cx> on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:11AM (#564340) Homepage
          Actually, PayPal is not FDIC insured - they hold funds in your PayPal balance in FDIC-insured banks, so your funds are protected, but PayPal itself is not a member of FDIC and thus does not have to follow their rules.
          • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:30AM

            by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:30AM (#564399)

            Mere sophistry and proving my point they are a bank pretending to not be a bank when the rules cramp their free wheeling .com style. So, you think Chase could get away with pretending they aren't a bank but the customer deposits are safely in one and then start refusing service to people for whatever reasons?

            Why do so many people get caught up in this "on the Internet" mania, believing simply adding those magic words to any existing business instantly transforms it into something entirely new? Banks aren't new. Wire transfers aren't new. Paypal isn't anything new merely because it does those things on the Internet. Chase has a webpage too, they are still bound by the financial regulations when you bank through it.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:27AM

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:27AM (#564397)

          On what planet is this sort of nonsense sustainable?

          The planet where the government refuses to regulate ISPs as utilities.

          Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. are going to get regulated as utilities eventually and be barred from discriminating.

          I see no evidence to support this assertion. They aren't regulated as utilities now, and they've been around for ages, especially Google. There's no political will right now to increase regulation on anything at all, and no indication that this will change before the country tears itself apart and breaks down into separate nations or has a civil war.

    • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:11PM (1 child)

      by edIII (791) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:11PM (#564269)

      You have your answer. The burner phone gets you reasonable anonymity assuming you asked a homeless person or some kid to get it with cash. Avoid all the video surveillance. I recommend buying more than one a time.

      Aside from that, you have Purism attempting to bring a fully free phone to market based on bona fide Linux running under the hood. Additionally, they have a mostly free laptop already. If that's not available, a small SoC that you can at least control with our own operating system you could connect up to the burner phone and use the networking connection.

      In all seriousness though, Internet is widely available via wireless in businesses, restaurants, cafes, personal residences, airports, etc. Instead of thinking, "I need a mobile phone", it's more, "I need access to the Internet". Funny enough, if you tailgate most buses they have free wifi onboard and the passphrase s are written on the windows.

      It's all about Internet access at this point. Mobile is only really useful at this point in areas that don't have ubiquitous wifi coverage.

      --
      Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 2) by Magic Oddball on Thursday September 07 2017, @09:08AM

        by Magic Oddball (3847) on Thursday September 07 2017, @09:08AM (#564487) Journal

        I hadn't heard about Purism before, so I checked out their website — and I couldn't help thinking that "security for everyone" is an odd motto for a company that only sells expensive high-end hardware. :-/

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 07 2017, @04:01PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 07 2017, @04:01PM (#564620) Journal

      "A burner phone" the man says. You do realize that they all come preloaded with spyware? Even more spyware than your typical "unlocked" phone. They aren't "selling" you a phone for less than a hundred bucks that they don't control. It's preconfigured to make it easy for you to give them all your data.

  • (Score: 5, Funny) by MrGuy on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:10PM (2 children)

    by MrGuy (1007) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:10PM (#564184)

    So on point that it hurts.

    https://xkcd.com/743/ [xkcd.com]

    • (Score: 3, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:25PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:25PM (#564190)

      Also very on point:

      Lockdown The coming war on general-purpose computing

      https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

  • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:12PM

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:12PM (#564186)

    Every metric points to Stalin being objectively worse than Hitler.

    The confusion on the matter stems from the fact that Hollywood isn't run by Russians.

  • (Score: 1) by bungle on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:16PM (15 children)

    by bungle (1370) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:16PM (#564188)

    Well, if we can get the Purism Librem 5 supported, perhaps that.

    https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ [puri.sm]

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:40PM (14 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @04:40PM (#564197)

      Ok, but I see a bunch of problems here:

      1) They're talking about running GNOME. Why the fuck would you do such a stupid thing? Gnome sucks hard enough on the desktop and consumes massive resources while offering very few features somehow; that's the last thing you want on a mobile device. They'll need a massively overpowered CPU just to run the thing because of that, and the thing will be terribly unreliable because Gtk+ is a pile of shit.

      2) What the fuck is really the point of this? Many people have tried making Linux-based phones before, and they've all been a massive failure. Why not just buy a burner phone? They're cheap and make calls just fine. The whole point of having a smartphone is the apps; it's the whole reason Windows became a juggernaut on the desktop and has been so hard to dislodge. This phone doesn't seem to have any apps, except whatever they ship (so, the basics). Can I load Tinder or Bumblr-type dating apps on it? Can I run my bank's app on it? Can I run my preferred RPN calculator app on it (or do I have to use some shitty GNOME-esque calculator app that doesn't even do hexadecimal conversions and bitwise operations)? Ask any smartphone user, and they likely have several "must-have" apps; it's just like the situation with Windows. At least with desktop computing, there's been a lot of effort in making FOSS alternatives for most important things, and WINE actually does run a lot of Windows programs, plus Linux is more organic, whereas this is just one startup company. There's no existing library of alternative mobile apps, and a lot of people really do use a lot of network-using apps (like banking, dating, social media, etc.). I saw nothing on that page about plans for compatibility with Android apps, so it's really just an overpowered, fancy telephone. It probably won't even have visual voicemail. So what's the point in having it, instead of a burner phone? I guess easier texting, but that's all I can think of. The built-in camera is nice I guess but I can just buy a pocket camera that takes better pictures.

      • (Score: 4, Interesting) by jmorris on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:02PM (8 children)

        by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:02PM (#564200)

        Actually the primary complaint against GNOME3 was that it was obviously a tablet / phone interface running on a desktop in a world where almost all the hardware that could actually benefit from it was locked away from it. It might actually be worth looking at on the hardware was written to run on. Their iPhone envy might finally be justified.

        See? I can actually say something nice about RedHat and the GNOMEs.

        As for apps, screw almost all of em, especially the junk in the Play Store. I do not want ads or shareware or the more typical case of shareware with battery sucking spyware AND ads in it. The amount of useful software remaining in the Play Store is low enough to ignore now if it comes to it. Somebody really does need to figure out what the hangup is getting Android apps running on a Linux desktop reliably though, the f-droid repo has a fair number of useful Android apps.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:28PM (6 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:28PM (#564203)

          Yes, most of the Play Store apps are garbage, but that's true of everything: "95% of everything is crap". I'd say most smartphone users have a small handful of apps they regularly use and maybe even rely on (or at least use so much they'd really miss them if they were gone). Personally, I get a lot of use out of RealCalc, which AFAIK has no spyware and definitely no ads (it nags you to buy the full version occasionally though). This project talks about having a mobile Linux development environment, so basically they're hoping a bunch of volunteers will pop up and start making Free apps for their phone, but that's wishful thinking really.

          • (Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:12PM (5 children)

            by gawdonblue (412) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:12PM (#564271)

            Personally, I get a lot of use out of RealCalc, which AFAIK has no spyware and definitely no ads (it nags you to buy the full version occasionally though). This project talks about having a mobile Linux development environment, so basically they're hoping a bunch of volunteers will pop up and start making Free apps for their phone, but that's wishful thinking really.

            Double bonus with Gnome on the Phone: gnome-calculator. It's a real scientific calculator that doesn't nag you and doesn't come from no stinkin' pay-for-app store. And triple bonus: it's GPL so you can search the source and tell if it has spyware. And even a quadruple bonus, it already exists and is already usable on mobile screen sizes. Maybe you can try it right now on your device...

            • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:45PM (4 children)

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:45PM (#564283)

              I just looked up your gnome-calculator, and it's completely unusable. It's not RPN.

              • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Wednesday September 06 2017, @11:13PM (2 children)

                by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @11:13PM (#564325)

                So spin again, you do know how many calculators are on the Linux desktop, right? Galculator supports Algebraic, RPN and Formula Entry modes. Many, many more to pick from.

                • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:21AM (1 child)

                  by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:21AM (#564396)

                  Those are for the desktop. You can't use a desktop app on a mobile device.

                  • (Score: 2) by jmorris on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:36AM

                    by jmorris (4844) on Thursday September 07 2017, @03:36AM (#564404)

                    Sure you can. As long as it is usable on the screen. What do you think GNOME3 is, just gtk3 apps optimized for touch and with a eye to looking good and being usable on a small screen. The rest is in the window manager's defaults to force everything full screen. Rare to find a calculator app that paints so many buttons it won't run on the phablets everybody carries around now.

              • (Score: 2) by gawdonblue on Saturday September 09 2017, @10:33PM

                by gawdonblue (412) on Saturday September 09 2017, @10:33PM (#565782)

                Oh, sorry. I didn't realise that RPN was critical to your workflow. The requirements document skipped some functionality. "Completely unusable" might be a bit over the top, though.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @07:46AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @07:46AM (#564461)

          I used to say the same about Microsofts Surface UI, aka Windows 8/8.1/10. So I got a Windows tablet. Turned out that the UI was only enough of a phone interface to be useless on the desktop, as soon as I started using my Windows 10 tablet, I found out that it was so incomplete that half the stuff had to be done through regular Windows software (e.g. Regedit), which was horrible on a tablet.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by edIII on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:16PM (2 children)

        by edIII (791) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:16PM (#564272)

        So?? If this thing is free and open as they say, you could install OpenBSD if you wanted. Assuming, OpenBSD would support the hardware in the first place. I'm more of a BSD guy, and headless 99.9% of the time, but isn't Gnome just a window manager? It can't be replaced with KDE or something else?

        I get your gripe, but the real question is the radio is unlocked and can it be used by a different distro?

        It's a great first step, and converting it to something non-Gnome does not look insurmountable. It doesn't even look like Purism would fight it, just on principles alone.

        --
        Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:44PM (1 child)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:44PM (#564281)

          So?? If this thing is free and open as they say, you could install OpenBSD if you wanted. Assuming, OpenBSD would support the hardware in the first place. I'm more of a BSD guy, and headless 99.9% of the time, but isn't Gnome just a window manager? It can't be replaced with KDE or something else?

          This is a PHONE. Desktop window managers and environments are not going to be usable on it.

          Granted, KDE was (and might still be) working on a different version of Plasma specifically for phones, but I haven't heard anything about it in a long time and I doubt it's ready for prime-time.

          And all the applications you use on a desktop machine won't work on it. None of them have UIs designed for small 5" touchscreens.

          I get your gripe, but the real question is the radio is unlocked and can it be used by a different distro?

          The only thing that does is enable development. There is simply no software ecosystem in existence currently that would make this a practical device.

          If all you needed to do was load up a current desktop Linux distro, you can do that right now with a Raspberry Pi. There's a reason this is a hard problem: the device has a fundamentally different form factor requiring completely a different UI, which means all-new software is needed, not just in the display/window manager stuff (remember too, phones don't have "windows", every app is full-screen) but for all the applications that run on it too. The only thing that such devices can share with desktop machines are the non-UI internals.

          • (Score: 2) by edIII on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:49PM

            by edIII (791) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:49PM (#564286)

            No, it is a COMPUTER with a PHONE RADIO. At least they market it that way from what I've seen in their literature so far. Your point about the UIs not being designed is indeed an issue that needs to be addresses. As you stated though, it does enable development. I'm at least hopeful that the community would come up with something.

            I'm so ridiculously comfortable on the command line versus a UI, that I would take a headless phone and use it all damn day long. Screw the UI and the walled garden platforms. Just give me free hardware and a command line and I can make do.

            --
            Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:43AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:43AM (#564349)

        Some people want computers that respect their freedoms. Not everyone is like you, someone who only seems to care about functionality.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:50AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:50AM (#564355)

          With that said, there is still proprietary software in those Purism phones, so they are not sufficient.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by kurenai.tsubasa on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:45PM (6 children)

    by kurenai.tsubasa (5227) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @05:45PM (#564208) Journal

    So what are you going to use then?

    I'm looking at a Kyocera Rally [kyoceramobile.com]. Not just because Alphabet/Google is at the top of my shit list, either. I've wanted a dumb phone for a while now. Sure, BREW may not be a better platform as far as software freedom goes, but there's no point continuing to throw money at the Android or iOS silos when both are complete crap and getting worse by the year.

    As far as I can gather, that phone has physical buttons, makes and receives calls and text messages, and I'm gathering from comments on Amazon that it also works as a music player (32gb microSD). That's 95% of everything I've used my current (Android) phone for since I bought it nearly 5 years ago. Only thing I'll miss by getting off the smartphone treadmill is maybe Moon+ Reader.

    I think I'd rather be one of the crazies than sink $300+ into yet another phone that'll be obsolete in 2 years, especially seeing that if anybody had hoped Android would ever be an OS that kinda sorta supports any software freedoms, that's going away.

    Imho, it's futile hoping for anybody to care about software freedom. I just wish I could figure out where people find the $600 every two years to splurge on the latest and greatest distraction device, spoon fed to them with only the features the Ownership Class want them to have this year and none of the features the Ownership Class don't want them to have. Smartphones are distraction devices and pacifiers, technological opiate for the masses, meant for one thing and one thing only: chaining down the mind.

    (Constant interrupt—Facebook! Twitter! High of 77°F today! Instagram! Pinterest! Gas prices going up! Text! Twitter again! New headline! Tumblr! Facebook again! Forecast now 78°F today! Amber alert! Twitter!—ions from these crippled devices forge the chains… reminds me of something a handicapper general might come up.)

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @06:37PM (5 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @06:37PM (#564219)

      As far as I can gather, that phone has physical buttons, makes and receives calls and text messages, and I'm gathering from comments on Amazon that it also works as a music player (32gb microSD). That's 95% of everything I've used my current (Android) phone for since I bought it nearly 5 years ago.

      I have a big problem with this. While 5+ years ago I wasn't much of a texter, now I am (my gf loves to text), and AFAIC it's utterly impossible to text on a phone with physical buttons, unless you're talking about a Blackberry with a thumb keyboard. I remember the days of 10-button texting, and I'm sorry, that's total bullshit. I never did it then, and I will not do it now, just like I will not go back to using a horse and buggy, or washing clothes by hand. If it's a choice between 10-button texting, or simply never sending a text, I'll be forced to pick the latter.

      Basically, this phone of yours would have very little utility to me. Most of what I do is, roughly in order of usage/importance:
      * Texting
      * GPS Navigation
      * Alarm clock
      * Camera
      * Calendar/reminders
      * Weather app (very important when you go outside a lot)
      * Dating apps (before I found the gf, not now)
      * Phone, but most of it using WiFi calling because my cellular reception at home is terrible
      * Web (Firefox + UBO)
      * Music (playing Oggs from internal storage)
      * Voice mail
      * Flashlight
      * GPS hiking (Osmand)
      * Note-taking
      * Games
      * Banking

      So now you're offering a device that can receive texts only, has no GPS, has an alarm clock I guess (but not an easy-to-use stopwatch or countdown timer), no camera worth a damn, no calendar, no dating apps, doesn't work very well as a phone, no web browsing ability, can play music but not with any kind of convenient UI, has no visual voice mail, no flashlight, no GPS hiking app, no ability to take text notes, no games worth a damn, and no banking app for me to deposit business checks with so I need to spend a lot of time driving to the bank to do it in person during banking hours. And you wonder why people like smartphones so much.

      Imho, it's futile hoping for anybody to care about software freedom.

      That's the main problem; most people just don't understand and don't care to understand, like the XKCD cartoon someone here linked to, until it bites them in the ass. Without a "critical mass", you're then faced with a choice between joining the crowd and actually getting things done, or sticking to your principles and being a hermit and living like a Luddite. It's not like this over on desktop PCs because desktop Linux really is a viable alternative for various reasons (years of development, plus so many things going to the web) mainly amounting to that critical mass I talked of, but the fact that PCs are actually open devices by original design probably also has a lot to do with it. Phones are not, unfortunately.

      I think I'd rather be one of the crazies than sink $300+ into yet another phone that'll be obsolete in 2 years

      You can easily buy cheap Android phones for $150 or less now, or just get stuff on the used market. My Galaxy S5 is 3 years old now and still works fine. And they're still selling it new too, with the non-contract MVNOs. The phone space has turned into a bifurcated market, where on one hand you have the traditional carriers with tons of retail outlets selling state-of-the-art phones for $600-900 or more with 2-year contracts and very high monthly rates, and on the other hand you have MVNOs and non-contract and BYOD phones and comparatively low monthly rates and prepaid options. Basically, if you're an idiot or you're lazy and don't care about saving money, you go the first route; if you're wiling to do research and you don't feel like you need to watch YouTube videos all day long on your phone, you go the latter route, but the market there is far larger and more chaotic.

      I just wish I could figure out where people find the $600 every two years to splurge on the latest and greatest distraction device,

      If you can't cough up $600 every two years, which amounts to $25/month, you have really serious financial issues. I'm not saying you *should* spend this much, as I certainly don't (my phone is 3 years old, remember), and I'd rather save my money for something else, but seriously, $25/month or $300/year is not very much money unless you're desperately poor. I spend far more on having a personal car (cost of car + fuel + insurance + maintenance), and far more yet on rent, and also on food. What's bad is how much people spend on a brand-new phone plus top-end service: now you're looking at over $100/month easily. It's still a small fraction of my rent, but I'd rather put ~$1200/year in savings or investments, or spend it on travel, than in some stupid phone when I can just use a 3-year-old one with a cheap MVNO plan. People have different priorities I guess.

      Smartphones are distraction devices

      They're also incredibly useful tools as I listed out above.

      High of 77°F today!

      That's pretty important to know, at least for me. It's not predicable (by me): yesterday here it was almost 90F, today it's only 67F. I can't predict that on my own, but with my weather app I can see it immediately without having to be near my computer (and then wake it out of its sleep state and wait for the monitors to come on, and then open a web page, etc. etc.). It makes a big difference in how I dress for the day, and what I do that day if it's a weekend. Do I go hiking because the weather's nice, or do I find something indoors to do because it's too hot, or do I stay home because we're going to have a flash flood?

      meant for one thing and one thing only: chaining down the mind.

      Yes, because people did so much better back when the only form of communication was sending letters by horse.

      • (Score: 2) by MostCynical on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:43PM (3 children)

        by MostCynical (2589) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:43PM (#564280) Journal

        So uou, for one, are happy to give up privacy and security for conveneince.
        Good for you.

        Some of us aren't.

        GPS means every app knows wher you are
        Dating apps plus GPS? You are an advertisers wet dream.

        Privacy (and security) shouldn't mean lack of convenience, but, at this stage of our technology, it does.

        --
        "I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:44PM (2 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:44PM (#564282)

          Hey, if you want to live in a shack in the woods like the Unabomber, more power to you.

          • (Score: 3, Touché) by takyon on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:48PM

            by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Wednesday September 06 2017, @09:48PM (#564284) Journal

            more explosive power to you.

            --
            [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @11:03AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 23 2017, @11:03AM (#572071)

            Ted was right about a lot. Did you read the manifesto?

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:53PM

        by Arik (4543) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:53PM (#564313) Journal
        "I have a big problem with this. While 5+ years ago I wasn't much of a texter, now I am (my gf loves to text), and AFAIC it's utterly impossible to text on a phone with physical buttons, unless you're talking about a Blackberry with a thumb keyboard. I remember the days of 10-button texting, and I'm sorry, that's total bullshit. I never did it then, and I will not do it now, just like I will not go back to using a horse and buggy, or washing clothes by hand. If it's a choice between 10-button texting, or simply never sending a text, I'll be forced to pick the latter."

        That's an interesting position. My experience is the opposite. When I had a phone with physical buttons I texted as often as I wanted to. Granted that isn't too often, but it was reasonably fast and efficient for short messages.

        With a touch-screen phone, texting became a nightmare, and for the most part I just refuse to do it. I text from a program on my computer, with a keyboard. When I'm out on mobile, if I need to reply, it'll be a phone call.

        "Basically, this phone of yours would have very little utility to me. Most of what I do is, roughly in order of usage/importance:"

        So pretty much everything an attacker could possibly want is all stored on your phone.

        --
        If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
  • (Score: 2) by Hyperturtle on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:10PM (2 children)

    by Hyperturtle (2824) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:10PM (#564243)

    What is stopping you from giving up your android phone?

    I am really not sure what conveniences I am missing, so I don't really get it when there are people that get animated about leaving the eco system. What are you losing from not having an android or apple phone? You don't mention any of that in your post -- you just say you're a happy fanboy. Ok, I am all for being happy, and I'd like to like something enough to actually be a fan of it, but what's so great that can't be done with something else? I am not expecting a tricorder to replace your existing one -- I want to know what conveniences you can't do without, because I don't have them and don't know what I am missing.

    My phone is a blackberry bold, the one with the keyboard and touch screen--it works great and I can still read any website I care to visit, videos still play etc...

    But most importantly, it works. It doesnt have the latest emojis but uh I don't really care about that. The phone itself, when it acts up... there are a few straightforward solutions, and I might reboot it 4 times a year. I have an extra battery I can swap out and also memory chips, but I havent had to swap those too often.

    And please don't give me the aghast reply that OMG you are on a blackberry. It's not suffering from any of the problems we're discussing, and we already know I am not cool. With that out of the way, I want to know why it is so hard for so many people to give up android devices. Is it friends and family? fear of being left out? Lack of social media status updates? Did all of your music get converted into some format that won't work on some other player?

    I am not being glib, I want to know what an *IT Person* has that makes it hard to move. I concede my mom had a hard time giving up windows 7, but I did too. She's back on it and I never left it.

    Regular people I expect to have greater challenges--but an IT person? I expect them to be able to set up a server and not complain to me that its not clouded. Then go to some hosting provider and set up a Counterstrike server like we did in the old days, except dont install counterstrike on it and instead put in a 10TB drive and set up a sync. even firewalls have wizards now to open the right ports.

    If this all becomes challenging, then it's all about convenience, which is OK. That explains the aghast responses, because it means people can't imagine giving up various conveniences. Sometimes, though... convenience is quite expensive. Privacy is now becoming a luxury that costs even more.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:48PM (1 child)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @08:48PM (#564259)

      I have another post in this thread that lists all the main things I do with my phone. I'm sure other people have similar lists, but with some different "must-have" items. A few things that come to mind that your Blackberry may or may not have (I'm not sure as I've never used a BB phone):

      Google Maps - for GPS navigation, finding businesses (e.g., how do I find a good restaurant in a new city I'm visiting?, and when do they close?), etc.
      Osmand - for recording my hiking and cycling routes, tells me where I hiked, how fast I went, elevation, etc.
      Banking app - for accessing bank account remotely, and depositing checks (can't do that on website)
      RealCalc - RPN calculator app
      Music player - plays my Ogg files. Does your BB play Ogg, which is an open standard and open-source codec suite, or just proprietary and obsolete crap like MP3?
      Flashlight - not as great as a real flashlight, but I don't carry a real flashlight around with me, so when I'm in the dark somewhere and need a bit of light, it's a big help.
      Camera - cameras on smartphones in the last 4 years or so are quite good, not as good as a dedicated camera from the same timeframe maybe but still quite good, and I don't carry a real camera around with me everywhere.

      I'm not a "fanboy"; that's rather insulting and especially ignorant. Fanboys are people who like things for emotional reasons only rather than utility, and refuse to look at viable alternatives. For example, people who love Windows even when it's constantly interrupting their work for 30 minutes to apply updates and reboot multiple times. I like what I can do with my phone, but I'd be happy to switch to something else (or more properly, some better and more open OS) if it let me do all the same stuff.

      Does BB do all this same stuff? I don't know, maybe you can answer that. But is BB even still in business? They constantly seem to be on the verge of collapse. That alone keeps me away from them. Why would I want to tie myself into yet another proprietary ecosystem, but this one with one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel? We just saw what happened to Windows Phone and all those loyal users. This isn't like desktop Linux where your software will continue working indefinitely but with security vulnerabilities, and you can just switch over to another distro when you're ready. According to their Wikipedia page, they're not even using BB OS any more, they switched to Android in 2015, and don't even design their own phones now. You expect me to consider this dying company to be a valid alternative? And why? What's the advantage? "Google is evil!!" And Blackberry isn't???? Please. That's like saying you should switch to Apple because Microsoft is evil. These companies are all evil; pick your poison.

      Besides, we're not talking about Android versus Blackberry here, we're talking about Android vs. no smartphone at all.

      Privacy is now becoming a luxury that costs even more.

      There's also a tradeoff between privacy and having a life. You can have lots of privacy by buying a cabin in the woods like Ted Kaczinski, and living as a hermit (and maybe writing a manifesto too), but most of us don't want to live that way. These days, not having a smartphone is going to have a severe impact on your social life, depending on your social group and demographic, and quite possibly your career too.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:46AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @12:46AM (#564353)

        These days, not having a smartphone is going to have a severe impact on your social life, depending on your social group and demographic, and quite possibly your career too.

        Don't hang out with shallow people or work for abusive employers; they are both utterly toxic. The latter is harder than the former since there are so many abusive employers and only so many jobs to go around, but you can always make your own job. I'm sure you don't care enough about privacy to do any of that, so saying this is a waste of time.

  • (Score: 2) by Arik on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:39PM

    by Arik (4543) on Wednesday September 06 2017, @10:39PM (#564310) Journal
    You made some good points, but missed a little on a couple points.

    "So what are you going to use then? An Apple? Did you not notice how they already do the exact same thing? (And worse, there's *never* been a possibility of having an open-source ROM for an iPhone, unlike Android devices.)"

    Now this may be defensible as technically correct, but it's deceptive. Any reader who doesn't already know otherwise could be excused for understanding you to have said that Android devices, generally, had the possibility of running an open-source ROM before this. And that's just not true, as I'm sure you are aware. In fact, you may well be more knowledgeable about it than I am. Is there, actually, a single android device that was ever manufactured that doesn't rely on an opaque blob or a superior processor or both? Certainly the Nexus S was never and will never be in that category and IIRC that's the one I've heard praised the most: https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/NexusSI902xPrivacySecurityEvaluation

    "(the radio firmware probably can't be open-source, but that's OK; we don't really care about that, just like we don't usually care about the firmware on a WiFi radio in our PC, we just want it to work with Linux)"

    1) I know of no reason it can't be, and it certainly should be, and yes I do care.

    2) If you don't care you're just being careless. If you have a subsystem with its own processor running a proprietary blob it has to be considered as compromised from day one. If it's possible for it to be used to compromise your 'main' system then the main system, similarly anything you load as a main system will also be compromised from day one. It doesn't matter how carefully each line of code you load into the main system has been vetted when there's a second cpu that has unsupervised DMA access to the main systems memory, for an incredibly common and utterly indefensible example.
    --
    If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?