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from the doesn't-stem-student's-interest dept.
Research into the obvious, but someone has finally done it: Three women researchers have studied the behavior of undergraduates in STEM fields, and concluded that there basically is no problem. From the abstract:
"The results show that high school academic preparation, faculty gender composition, and major returns have little effect on major switching behaviors, and that women and men are equally likely to change their major in response to poor grades in major-related courses. Moreover, women in male-dominated majors do not exhibit different patterns of switching behaviors relative to their male colleagues."
Furthermore current recruitment efforts to attract more women tend to be counterproductive. In an interview, the primary author says:
"Society keeps telling us that STEM fields are masculine fields, that we need to increase the participation of women in STEM fields, but that kind of sends a signal that it's not a field for women, and it kind of works against keeping women in these fields."
One of our female students told me that the women are interviewed endlessly, for one project or another: "tell us about your experience", "are you doing ok", "have you experienced sexism", and on, and on. That alone is enough to make them question their career choice.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by Justin Case on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:05PM (46 children)
Equal opportunities not outcomes!!!
Nobody had to recruit me into my career. I thought it would be interesting, and it was.
Why shouldn't people -- all people -- be allowed to choose careers they find interesting instead of being pushed into something they clearly don't want?
This is just more ridiculous, wasteful, frustrating social modification from the everything-must-be-exactly-the-same-for-everyone-everywhere department.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Snow on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:12PM (41 children)
It's the feminism movement. They've already won all the big stuff, so now they attack whatever imbalances they perceive are left (however minor).
Anecdotally, there are plenty of females in my IT department. It's pretty close to 50/50. Our head of IT is a woman too.
No one gives a shit that there aren't many male nurses.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:24PM (20 children)
Or male HR/Recruiting people (dominated by women in the companies I've worked at).
Or male dental hygienists.
Or male waiters at low/medium costs places.
Or any number of other professions that have a male/female imbalance.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:29PM (19 children)
I hate to sound sexist, but at least 3 of these examples involve service jobs with public contact, and frequently physical contact (nurse and hygienist). As a man, I'd much rather have a woman putting her hands on me (or in my mouth, etc.) than a man. But ask most women, and they'll probably agree; they'd rather have a random woman than a random dude (now if the guy was guaranteed to look like George Clooney or something, that'd be different, but that's just not the case with random men in service positions). Also, most people seem to admit that women are generally just nicer to look at than the average man, and psychological studies show that people like to be around and talk to people who are attractive, so it's pretty obvious I think why people would prefer female service people. It's a double standard, but nature and biology aren't fair.
Now HR I can't really answer, as that's not really a service position. It just seems to be a female haven for some reason, but worse, it seems that the very worst types of women congregate in those departments.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:37PM (17 children)
HR is easy to explain. Those companies that have done away with "personnel managers" in favor of HR, were actively seeking a token to fill the position. No white males need apply for an HR position. Not even if you should actually find a white male who wants the job.
(Score: 2) by Justin Case on Friday September 08 2017, @12:14AM (16 children)
Anecdotal data point: isn't there also a minimum weight requirement, and a rather hefty one at that? Has always been the case everywhere I worked dating back for decades now.
(Score: 2, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 08 2017, @12:26AM (14 children)
It's probably an unwritten policy. Our HR woman teeters on that "morbidly obese" line. She also has huge hooters, and likes showing them off as much as possible.
Interesting thing about the dress code. The company has several plants around the US. The dress policy was reasonable, I think, for the most part. Then, our HR woman decided that the girls in production could not wear those legging things. Believe me, SOME of those women look damned good in skin tight ultra-sheer synthetic not-quite-pants. Why was that? Well, the fat-assed old broad can't look good in those things, so no one in the plant is going to look good in them!!
Imagine that - dress codes designed to make heifers feel good about themselves!!
Now, more seriously, if I were to write a dress code, EVERYONE would be covered from neck to ankle. No shorts, no midriff showing, no cleavage, shirts would all have half-sleeves like a crew neck T, or longer. In an industrial environment, clothing serves a protective role, that far outweighs attractiveness and/or modesty. And, since burns are probably our number one hazard, I would STRONGLY encourage people to wear cotton, and discourage any kind of synthetic fibers. Fires are far more survivable in natural fiber clothing, than any plastic crap.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @12:44AM (5 children)
Stop it you sounds like a blue Meany ... Have a toke and stop caring about work place safety like a straight edge ...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @01:05AM (3 children)
'Tis Runaway. Just wait a while, and he will pass out from alt-right manipulated rage.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 08 2017, @02:51AM (2 children)
You jest, but over the last few weeks something has taken a seriously concerning turn in his posts. It sounds like something broke inside honestly.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 08 2017, @02:23PM (1 child)
This, from a broken person? No, nothing has broken. I'm the same old asshole, you're the same ditzy chick. Have you had your eyes examined, lately?
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday September 08 2017, @04:52PM
Anosognosia is a common symptom--or maybe comorbid disorder--with people in your situation. In plain English, part of your brokenness is inability and/or refusal to see how messed up you're getting.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 08 2017, @02:27PM
"stop caring about work place safety"
You are obviously not a burn survivor, nor are you closely related to any. Perhaps you would like to visit Children's Hospital, or the Shriner's Hospital, and get to know a few survivors. Your life will be changed.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:21PM (7 children)
Fires are far more survivable in natural fiber clothing, than any plastic crap.
Surely this depends on the exact artificial fiber you're talking about; they vary wildly in their properties you know. Isn't Nomex an artificial fiber? Race car drivers are covered head-to-toe in that stuff. Maybe you should have production uniforms made of that stuff.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 08 2017, @02:29PM (6 children)
Nomex is relatively high dollar - and people don't wear it to be fashionable. But, you're right, cotton isn't safer than ALL synthetics. Cotton is much safer than any popular synthetics sold at Wally World, or Fashion Bug, or any other stores frequented by fashion conscious young people.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:47PM (2 children)
If you're working in a production plant where fire is actually a significant concern, then why doesn't the company invest in some uniforms for everyone to wear then? They can keep them at the plant and let people put them on before they start work, so the cost isn't borne by the employee, and the clothes can be reused as employees come and go. Fab workers at semiconductor plants don't have to buy their own bunny suits, for instance. It's not at all abnormal for manufacturing companies to have company-provided safety clothing for employees.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday September 08 2017, @03:27PM (1 child)
The company won't invest in uniforms because people are disposable.
I remember a time when corporations declared that "People are our most valuable resource!" At that point in time, employers actually did try to make life better for employees, tried to make the work environment better, and tried to promote people based on merit. Those days are long gone. Today, people are as disposable as dirty socks. Globalization has achieved it's main mission!!
Oh, back to my own preferred dress code? From our current starting point, it would be pretty damned difficult to enforce such a dress code. For the wages production workers are paid, you can't expect people to run out and buy a new wardrobe. Some guy gets a job here, he's going to wear whatever he has in his closet, because we don't pay him enough to invest in different clothing.
Before I could reasonably expect people to conform to my dress code, I'd have to raise their pay by something in the range of 10%, AND introduce some minimal job security. Once I began to identify real "keepers" among the employees, then I'd have to give them some additional raises, to help ensure that I kept them. Hiring people at minimum wage pluse $1.00 doesn't attract "keepers", nor does it entice one who wanders in the door to stay. The wages only contribute to the high turnover.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @03:44PM
Hiring people at minimum wage pluse $1.00 doesn't attract "keepers", nor does it entice one who wanders in the door to stay. The wages only contribute to the high turnover.
This reminds me of a girl I met on an online dating site years ago (we only exchanged messages, never met in person). She worked in HR for some retail chain, and complained about the quality of candidates they got for their near-minimum-wage jobs. I pointed out that such low pay isn't exactly going to attract the best people and maybe they should offer more. I never heard from her again.
After that, I never again entertained the possibility of dating someone who works in HR.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Friday September 08 2017, @06:02PM (2 children)
This isn't true. Almost all navy clothes are synthetics. They're designed to burn easily without sticking to your skin.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @11:12PM (1 child)
Citation needed.
(Score: 1) by i286NiNJA on Friday September 08 2017, @11:56PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_Navy [wikipedia.org]
Search the word polyester. Almost all these uniforms are polyester blend designed to burn easily without sticking to skin. It's not like there aren't millions of people who know this.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:19PM
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've worked in a bunch of places, and the stereotype for HR that I've seen is 20s-50s white women in reasonably fit condition (the younger ones can be quite hot, the older ones are in reasonable shape, not usually very fat). The ones older than their 20s seem to generally be pretty cold bitches though; you probably have to be pretty cold to work in that job where you're willfully screwing employees over to help the bottom line.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @04:43PM
This is a good point, that I think people need to take into account.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:33PM (9 children)
There's probably a decent number of guys that would be more comfortable with male nurses in certain cases.
Something that always comes to my mind is early childhood education. There's often a lack of positive male role models for young boys.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:20PM (4 children)
There's probably a decent number of guys that would be more comfortable with male nurses in certain cases.
Like when? If someone's going to be putting their hands on me in a medical setting, I'd much rather it be a woman than a man.
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @12:16AM (3 children)
I had a Muslim friend who felt very uncomfortable as he had never really had physical contact with a woman. He said it was really awkward because he was nervous and jumpy, while she kept laughing. Afterwards, he would always joke about how the first woman that saw him undress couldn't stop laughing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @12:41AM
We have to convert Muslims with our loose Western wimminz.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:23PM (1 child)
Sounds like the experience was good for him. People need to break out of their shells and shed their oppressive moral codes like this.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @07:40PM
A medical context is not the best place to push someone out of their comfort zone.
Sometime later, he was embarrassed when he had hemorrhoids and avoided going to the doctor for a while. He eventually went and specifically requested a male doctor.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:42PM (3 children)
I'm not one of them. I had a male nurse groping me last year in the ER. No, I was not more comfortable with a male nurse, than I would have been with a female nurse. Now, funny thing about female nurses is, they can be too damned attractive. I had no problems with mature women, who ranged from attractive to unattractive. The young nubile thing who walked in on me while nekkid was a real hit to my composure. The mature women who were obviously mothers and grandmothers were comfortable to be around, no matter how many clothes I had on or off. The girlish looking youngster was pretty damned uncomfortable.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Friday September 08 2017, @03:09AM (2 children)
I had round of IV antibiotics for a case of osteomyelitis that lasted several weeks, so I regularly visited the office for new IV placements, and got to know the 4 nurses there. They ranged from supermodel attractive to potato, and their IV placement skills were perfectly negatively correlated with their attractiveness. By the end I was requesting the potato and refusing the other extreme.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:27PM (1 child)
That's probably because the supermodel one was the youngest, and therefore the most inexperienced, and the potato was the oldest and therefore most experienced. So it's not too surprising that the oldest one will have the best IV placement skills. But this isn't always age-correlated: motor skills vary wildly by individual, regardless of age. Some people just have better "feel" than others.
Personally, I'll take my chances with the supermodel (if I don't already know her to be lousy with a needle). I have excellent veins and no nurse ever has trouble doing an IV on me, though some do have more finesse than others.
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday September 08 2017, @09:33PM
There was some age difference, late 20s to early 40s, but the middle talent nurses were also 20s and 40s. There's some truth to the notion that "when you're that pretty, you don't have to do much else to get by in the world..." she couldn't place a needle in an easy vein over half the time. Worst of it was the suggestion that I needed a PIC line, I didn't need a PIC line, I needed one of the other 3 nurses who could actually do their job.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:04PM (2 children)
I bet the female nurses working in the bariatric ward would probably appreciate more male nurses. Or better hydraulics/robotics.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Kell on Friday September 08 2017, @10:27AM (1 child)
A lot of people forget that male nurses get all the shit lifting jobs. My brother was an RN and injured himself several times on the job - the female nurses all demanded he do the lifting, and he couldn't get out of it. Even when he had already been suffering lifting injuries.
Scientists ask questions. Engineers solve problems.
(Score: 3, Informative) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @02:30PM
Hospitals used to have employees called "orderlies" who were there mainly to do this job, and to deal with combative patients. Usually they were giant, burly men.
Somewhere along the line, they fired them all to save money, thinking the nurses could do this work. My mom used to be a nurse, and saw this transition. She ended up getting injured lifting an obese patient, and suing the hospital (and settling). This shit should be illegal.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:06PM
That isn't actually true. There are groups pushing for more male nurses and medical paraprofessionals. The reasons why include that the men tend to be physically stronger, mixed sex requirements for exams (i.e. male doctors working on women require female staff presence and female doctors working on men require male staff), the general number of applicants is dropping, some people prefer male nurses, and men are viewed as being less likely to gossip, which is important as HIPAA suits go up.
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:20PM (3 children)
No one gives a shit that there aren't many male nurses.
That's so trivially proved wrong I don't understand why people keep using it as a talking point. [google.com]
(Score: 3, Informative) by hemocyanin on Friday September 08 2017, @01:05AM (2 children)
A couple random support groups for male nurses? That's not much to shout about.
May I suggest "The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011 - Feminism / Gender Studies": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70 [youtube.com] where the question of why, in the world's most gender equal country (Norway) men and women still largely choose traditionally male and female jobs. One of the interesting studies explored was that in the least modernized countries, women tend to be interested in "male" jobs but as countries modernize and women get more freedom, they tend to not be interested in such jobs.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @02:28PM (1 child)
The original claim was (emphasis added): "No one gives a shit that there aren't many male nurses."
Clearly there is someone who gives a shit, as GP demonstrated. So this claim is patently wrong.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Friday September 08 2017, @11:00PM
*eyeroll*
By the same quality of evidence, we could say it is official US policy to support Furries.
(Score: 4, Informative) by linuxrocks123 on Friday September 08 2017, @12:53AM
Actually, I've been told by multiple people who should know that they do care, and that they actively try to recruit men into nursing programs.
It wouldn't really make sense for them not to care, when you think about it. Some people aren't really comfortable with people of the opposite sex performing invasive medical examinations on them. True, probably more women than men are uncomfortable with that, lessening the problem, but still.
(Score: 2) by Hawkwind on Friday September 08 2017, @03:24AM
The nursing graduate program in my neck of the woods wants more male nurses. They have to be careful of federal regs but they promote males where they can. So, please retire the abolsute statement that no one cares about males in nursing.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by requerdanos on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:34PM
Well, those people, drain on society that they are, are certainly involved.
But I don't think they are the whole thing.
There have been lots of fields that were entirely, or almost entirely, one gender--Doctors (men), Nurses (women), Flight Attendants (women). Some things happen in those fields under those circumstances. Within the fields, practitioners tend to learn to expect their peers to be people of the predominant gender and develop either latent or outright biases against those of the opposite gender. Also, within society itself, the same biases appear, possibly to a larger degree.
Even if the reason for a field being mostly one gender is an innocuous one*, not based on gender discrimination as such, the biases and discrimination still tend to develop in that environment.
These three fields that I mention have made enormous progress, judging by what I see in the United States, and men and women are accepted (much closer to) equally.
It's important to address such biases and work to correct them--starting with ourselves, not bashing others over the head with our notions.
--------------------
* if the reader does not "believe" in gender, this will all probably go over his head. In such case, I encourage further study.
(Score: 1, Troll) by jmorris on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:28PM
Remember, Diversity is our Strength. And if we find any actual diversity we will smash the crap outta the bigots responsible. Once you can Double Think those you are golden.
Seriously, we pass laws punishing any actual diversity that pops up, disparate impact they call it. Doesn't matter if all sides agree no discrimination other than merit is involved, disparate impact means you get boned anyway. The only way to avoid being boned for disparate impact is to discriminate on the basis of protected traits like race, gender, national origin, etc. and not get caught, which is easy since as long as you are doing the 'right' sort of discriminating the system averts its gaze.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday September 08 2017, @10:29AM (1 child)
Yeh, I got into this because as a kid, I was insanely interested in what made things tick.
But, you know, I sunk a helluva lotta time, energy, and money into doing this.
It would have been a bad decision if I had gotten into this solely for money. Learning the skills to compel others to do stuff for me would be have been a more economically productive use of my time, albeit not nearly as much fun as doing the stuff myself. Same reason I don't like televised sports. If I am involved, I am doing it, not watching someone else do it.
But then, that is a moot point, for if I had spent my time learning techniques of compelling others to my will, I would have never acquired the technical skills I now possess. If that had been the case, all I could do is compel is the production of bullshit.
All I ended up doing was whoring myself to men wearing suits who were looking for the lowest-cost provider. Its hard to sell technical skills when they suit-guy is looking for presentation skills.
I trained to be the monkey prancing around with my cup while the organ grinder decides what I will get to eat. My skills being so specialized I just about had to work under a corporate system. Until retirement. Now, I can work on my own terms. If the guy thinks his impressive suit and car mean something to me, well, let me say at this point in my life, I want to be paid like a gentleman if I am going to implement his dreams instead of implementing mine.
I believe the women are smarter than this when it comes to the economics of a career in STEM.
But men, well, we like to do things that are fun. I know I do. I like to design and build things. Things that have never been seen before. I despise ass-kissing. For me, respect is an earned thing, not something I do because I am told to do it.
I will obey others under veiled threat of economic penalty or physical violence if the guy doesn't get his way, but respect them? No.
Respect is earned. Its not something that can be required of me. Obedience can, but not respect.
I find it hard to commit myself to something I do not believe in personally. And frankly, a lot of modern corporate types come across like a TV ad pitchman. While they may know all sorts of weaseltalk, I know the onus is on me to make it work. If I have to be subordinate to a weaseltalker, I may as well hang it up right then and there.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday September 08 2017, @03:54PM
I believe the women are smarter than this when it comes to the economics of a career in STEM.
I don't think it's just that, I think there's also a large component that women in this society are typically more social than men are, and STEM jobs are seen as not-so-social (though that's changing with all this open-plan-office bullshit), and in reality, STEM jobs really do involve less talking to people on average.
Same reason I don't like televised sports. If I am involved, I am doing it, not watching someone else do it.
I agree entirely about this one. I like playing some sports, but I have no interest in watching someone else do something I could be doing myself, even if I can't do it half as well as they can.
But I have noticed that an extremely large number of women in the dating market are huge sports fans. What's with that? They also seem to love big dogs and hate cats too. Honestly, I'm not sure why they're still single, especially at this age (I'm talking 35+ here), and my only hypothesis is that the stereotype of men being beer-swilling big-dog-loving sports fans might by an incorrect stereotype only applying to a small minority of men, and that more women fit this stereotype than men. In this very liberal east-coast city (DC), finding dateable women who aren't pit-bull and sports loving alcoholics is a real challenge.