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from the doesn't-stem-student's-interest dept.
Research into the obvious, but someone has finally done it: Three women researchers have studied the behavior of undergraduates in STEM fields, and concluded that there basically is no problem. From the abstract:
"The results show that high school academic preparation, faculty gender composition, and major returns have little effect on major switching behaviors, and that women and men are equally likely to change their major in response to poor grades in major-related courses. Moreover, women in male-dominated majors do not exhibit different patterns of switching behaviors relative to their male colleagues."
Furthermore current recruitment efforts to attract more women tend to be counterproductive. In an interview, the primary author says:
"Society keeps telling us that STEM fields are masculine fields, that we need to increase the participation of women in STEM fields, but that kind of sends a signal that it's not a field for women, and it kind of works against keeping women in these fields."
One of our female students told me that the women are interviewed endlessly, for one project or another: "tell us about your experience", "are you doing ok", "have you experienced sexism", and on, and on. That alone is enough to make them question their career choice.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Justin Case on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:42PM (11 children)
Me too.
So at the risk of contradicting my previous sentence, if I see someone wearing an expensive business suit and tie (or the female equivalent) I assume they are clueless about software development, systems administration, or any of the other nitty-gritty computer technical skills. Yes, it is a prejudice, and I'm not sure I can ignore it, because it is based on about a thousand consecutive experiences.
On the other hand, I've been guilty of seeing a very attractive woman in a technical role and thinking "bet she's here because someone thought she was hot." Of course I tried to conceal that opinion, and it is a good thing, because within 5 minutes of talking to her I had to reverse my judgment and acknowledge she had skillz. We enjoyed a happy and productive working relationship for several years.
How to defeat the mental short-circuits we take based on past experience? I'm not sure I know. I'm pretty sure pushing women (or anyone else) into STEM "just because" isn't the solution.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Virindi on Thursday September 07 2017, @10:57PM (2 children)
Exactly. The big problem is management who cannot revise their judgment based on demonstration of knowledge and skill, a problem with currently pervades western society. The best solution is to require that all managers are skilled in the job they are managing, which in the old timey days was a common requirement.
It is the same root cause for, in many cases, gender discrimination, discrimination against introverts, excess office politics, etc. All things which seriously harm the productivity of society and make the lives of honest people who care about their work difficult.
(Score: 2) by krishnoid on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:03PM
Which after such a demonstration, it reverts back to the existing problem of management not being able to identify/recognize the value of knowledge and skill in the first place.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Arik on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:44PM
"Scientific Management" wasn't completely useless. If it had been, it might never have taken off. It works fairly well in supervising factory workers in the sorts of industrial jobs that it was really designed for. Applying it to work environments that are substantially different doesn't always work well, however, and the worst thing is that when you have a company lead by scientific managers they shape everything else in favor of what they know how to manage - predictable assembly-lines with easily measured metrics.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Arik on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:02PM (4 children)
I can understand and empathize, and also steal the opportunity to expand slightly.
That's a prejudice that I am (and apparently you are) aware of. I'll let you speak for yourself but with me that's a prejudice you can get past in a few seconds, if it isn't accurate in your case. And several people have.
I don't think it's possible, and I'm not even sure it would be all that useful, to remove all prejudice entirely. Prejudice is a natural way for us to make split second decisions when we haven't the time to use the more sophisticated parts of our brains.
Where it becomes a huge problem is when it hardens into deeply set prejudices, like racism can be for many people, and like looking down on people who don't follow fashion obviously is for many, and so forth. Where it's not a prejudice that's owned and kept on a leash by a rational mind, but is given more-or-less free reign to lead the show instead.
"On the other hand, I've been guilty of seeing a very attractive woman in a technical role and thinking "bet she's here because someone thought she was hot." Of course I tried to conceal that opinion, and it is a good thing, because within 5 minutes of talking to her I had to reverse my judgment and acknowledge she had skillz. We enjoyed a happy and productive working relationship for several years."
You see? That's how it works. Assuming you are a healthy heterosexual male that thought was always going to flit into your mind when you first saw someone you would describe in that way. That's basic animal instinct that's going to happen no matter how many billions of dollars are spent to try to stop it from happening. But it doesn't matter. Because even though the thought went through your mind it did not somehow prevent subsequent rational thought from taking place.
Good post man.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Justin Case on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:08PM (3 children)
Hmmm. Does that mean you're ready to remove me from your enemies list?
Of course if I were your friend again, I'd have to pledge to continue using NoScript.
What to do, what to do?
(Score: 1) by Arik on Thursday September 07 2017, @11:38PM (2 children)
And no, you have no obligations to me whatsoever. IIRC I foed you for making such an absurdly bad argument that I concluded I was being trolled. If you do it again my reaction might be the same *shrug*
That's just my nature, don't let it stress you.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by Justin Case on Friday September 08 2017, @12:17AM (1 child)
Not stressed at all. You remained on my friend list throughout, because you have the most technical common sense around here, personal quirks notwithstanding.
But come on, if I was really trolling you... a troll wants to be noticed, to get a response. What response could be sweeter than getting someone to actually foe you? :)
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday September 08 2017, @12:57AM
It was simply to adjust your initial post score, as seen on my screen. For awhile you lost your +2, which meant that you only needed to be modded down twice to become invis to me. At least, I think it still works that way. Not sure if there was ever any practical effect but that was what was intended, and if you'd made a habit of trolling it might have invis'd some of the posts as other people caught on. Apparently you do not make such a habit, so it was time to remove it anyway.
If there is a way to do it without it being visible I missed that, and would happily do that instead, as what you said here is true.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday September 08 2017, @03:14AM
My prejudice runs to the extracurricular activities focus - if you're president of Eta Kappa Nu and Tau Beta Pi, organizer of both annual charity fundraisers, community liason to the Elks, Rotarians and Food Bank, etc. etc. etc. - when exactly did you have time to learn and practice your engineering skills? It's great to have social skills, but people who throw themselves headlong into the social endeavors often seem to be hiding from other inadequacies.
🌻🌻 [google.com]
(Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 08 2017, @08:01AM
No it's not. That tie cuts off the oxygen supply to the brain.
Also, think about it like this: Suits are worn by sales people, managers, bankers, politicians and insurance people. It is the uniform of the professionally dishonest. Why would anyone with actual skills want to be seen wearing that? It's like the white-collar version of the orange jumpsuit.
(Score: 1) by anubi on Friday September 08 2017, @10:37AM
I have that same initial prejudice.
Kinda like seeing a large flying black bug with yellow dots. I have been stung by some of those. And the prejudice transfers in me to all flying black bugs with yellow dots.
To me, that kind of dress signals an obsession with power and money.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]