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posted by martyb on Wednesday September 27 2017, @10:15AM   Printer-friendly
from the No-Way! dept.

What was it that one learned through a great books curriculum? Certainly not "conservatism" in any contemporary American sense of the term. We were not taught to become American patriots, or religious pietists, or to worship what Rudyard Kipling called "the Gods of the Market Place." We were not instructed in the evils of Marxism, or the glories of capitalism, or even the superiority of Western civilization.

As I think about it, I'm not sure we were taught anything at all. What we did was read books that raised serious questions about the human condition, and which invited us to attempt to ask serious questions of our own. Education, in this sense, wasn't a "teaching" with any fixed lesson. It was an exercise in interrogation.

To listen and understand; to question and disagree; to treat no proposition as sacred and no objection as impious; to be willing to entertain unpopular ideas and cultivate the habits of an open mind — this is what I was encouraged to do by my teachers at the University of Chicago.

It's what used to be called a liberal education.

The University of Chicago showed us something else: that every great idea is really just a spectacular disagreement with some other great idea.

Bret Stephens's speech warrants a full read. It makes valuable points that we all need to hear, even on SN.


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  • (Score: 5, Disagree) by jmorris on Wednesday September 27 2017, @12:24PM (17 children)

    by jmorris (4844) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @12:24PM (#573754)

    All that and more. A classical education taught free men how to think like free men must. To govern himself so that he doesn't need a top down government. He was taught how to think, to reason, to solve problems on his own. And yes, to come together and debate issues without fisticuffs.

    Then something happened around the end of the 19th Century and things began to change:

    "Our schools have been scientifically designed to prevent overeducation from happening. The average American (should be) content with their moderate role in life, because they're not tempted to think about any other role."
        -- William T. Harris, U.S. Commisisioner of Education 1889

    Hmm. That doesn't sound very "American" does it? Would any of the Founder have claimed this thing as a countryman? Doubtful, but there it is.

    Then the main Progressive movement kicked off with Wilson's misfits and we haven't even been trying to educate in the government schools since, just produce good little worker units. The "future ruling class" went to private schools. But they have screwed it up, no school now teaches and we are a nation of the ignorant, even at the top. A modern ivy league education no longer teaches how to reason, only to regurgitate the Party Line. A full college degree is inferior in many ways to a high school education of the 19th Century.

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  • (Score: 4, Disagree) by Phoenix666 on Wednesday September 27 2017, @12:42PM (12 children)

    by Phoenix666 (552) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @12:42PM (#573760) Journal

    A modern ivy league education no longer teaches how to reason, only to regurgitate the Party Line. A full college degree is inferior in many ways to a high school education of the 19th Century.

    I don't know about that. The author was speaking from the ethos of the University of Chicago. As an alumnus, I confirm that is what they teach. We had it as: "If someone asserts it, challenge it. If someone challenges it, assert it." In other words, never take something at face value, always poke and prod at the idea to ascertain its worth.

    I can't speak from personal experience at the Ivy League schools, because I was fortunate enough to attend a place that gave me an education, but I have had many friends and colleagues who did (poor dears!) and they don't seem like parrots or dittoheads to me. I suspect they were taught by enough professors who were alumni of the University of Chicago to not be entirely lost.

    But I do agree with you very much that education in the United States is designed to produce good little worker units, not free-thinking men and women. It's inadequate to the challenges of the 21st century. If continued, it will break national resolve and dash the country's accomplishments.

    --
    Washington DC delenda est.
    • (Score: 5, Disagree) by Virindi on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:20PM

      by Virindi (3484) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:20PM (#573780)

      You are correct, an Ivy education is not entirely as bad as the GP claims. There is, at the very least, a lot of lip service paid to the concept of intelligent debate and questioning of values.

      However, the issue is that there is a decline in diversity of actual opinion. Teaching that everything should be questioned is of only limited effect when everyone in the class believes the same thing.

      A lot of lip service is also paid to diversity, but they are careful to mainly go for people who share a certain view of the world. This goes along with the indoctrination about how "you are the future leaders of society" and all that; people encountered there are almost universally those who trust in "the authorities", "the experts"*, and of course the concept of human control over other humans. The general philosophy that humans should control other humans is the most important. Or to put it another way, those selected to attend are those friendly to "the establishment".

      *Note: do not mistake rejection of some authorities as counter-evidence, when they are really going along with the decision of their social group. There is some subtlety to this selection process.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 27 2017, @02:39PM (10 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 27 2017, @02:39PM (#573817) Journal

      I'm reminded of my generation's motto, "question authority". It was always my opinion that if authority had no answers to the questions, then their authority was bogus.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Wednesday September 27 2017, @06:11PM (1 child)

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @06:11PM (#573931) Journal

        It was always my opinion that if authority had no answers to the questions, then their authority was bogus.

        I think it's also fair to say that when authority provides answers, but the answers are bullshit – which is quite common – that authority is also bogus.

        The problem is that authority is not the same thing as power.

        For instance, the vast majority of the answers the government puts forth about the "war on drugs" are utter bullshit. But that doesn't mean they won't stomp you and your family and your future into the ground based on those answers.

        Same goes for quite a few other things.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:37AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:37AM (#574157) Journal

          BINGO!!

          We've all watched videos of cops killing young black males unjustifiably. The Rice kid in Cleveland is my number one example. Cops all but run the kid down with their car, jump out, and start shooting. This is a horrible example of abuse of authority - murdering someone's child with impunity. Authority only has bogus bullshit answers to our questions. Obviously, this and other police departments are out of control.

          But, we the people are so busy pursuing other agendas, that we can't even agree that the police need to be reined in.

          How the hell do we ever force the police to exercise proper authority in a responsible manner? THAT is a worthy goal, and entirely achievable, IF we the people would just unite.

          But, those agendas are all getting in the way.

      • (Score: 3, Disagree) by aristarchus on Wednesday September 27 2017, @06:50PM (5 children)

        by aristarchus (2645) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @06:50PM (#573955) Journal

        It was always my opinion

        Runaway committing an auto-argumentum ad verecundiam in refuting an argument against accepting authority: the mind boogles, the irony-meter has melted down, can the center hold?

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Wednesday September 27 2017, @07:07PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @07:07PM (#573961) Journal

          It can, but it's about to piss itself laughing :D

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 3, Disagree) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:21AM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:21AM (#574138) Journal

          There is legitimate authority, you do understand. When authority is legitimate, and properly exercised, you're a fool to struggle against it. As I see it, your left is all about undermining legitimate authority, and trying to establish your own authority - based on bullshit.

          What is the status of the Soviet, these days? And, "Red China"? Venezuela? Again and again the socialistic dream fails, but the left comes back again and again, "We just weren't doing it right, let's try again!"

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:39AM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 28 2017, @01:39AM (#574161) Journal

          The center holds - if you come in from far-left field, you'll see that the center is quite healthy.

          • (Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday September 28 2017, @04:38AM (1 child)

            by aristarchus (2645) on Thursday September 28 2017, @04:38AM (#574214) Journal

            So, Runaway, you do not know what an argumentum ad verecundiam is, eh? It is OK to just admit it. Not everyone can know Latin. Especially Polacks. And you owe us a new irony meter!

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday September 28 2017, @02:25PM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday September 28 2017, @02:25PM (#574352) Journal

              Argument from authority. I looked it up. Since you ask, I don't read much Latin, at all. I never worked in a field where it was necessary to understand dead languages, so I didn't study them. In fact, I'm linguistically impaired - I can do alright in Spanish/Mexican and closely related languages - I can order a beer and ask about the hot women in any country that speaks Spanish.

              Latin though, I only know what I found necessary to learn. You might look up 'inter utrosque polos tridens'. I realize you don't need to look up the interpretation, but go ahead, put it in a search engine. Hook us all up with a picture, alright?

              Back to your point - What, exactly, is "wrong" with an argument from authority? Let's say, you're scheduled for brain surgery. And, you decide that you want to tell the doctor how she should decorate your head - you want the scars to fit into a really cool pattern, over which you can tattoo an awesome picture. And, she tells you "NO!" Argument from authority. Is that somehow "wrong"?

              Verecundia - knowing one's place. It almost seems that you are accusing me of being out of place? Of not knowing my place? Hmmmm - you do realize that I am an American, right? My place is obviously wherever I decide it to be. Surely you aren't implying that the linguistically impaired should occupy a lower station in life than the linguistically gifted? I fail to see how that differes from keeping to your station in life if you're _____________ (black, female, Polack, retarded, genius, gay - pick any term to fill the blank)

              But, back to that argument from authority - isn't that the same shit you're trying to pull? "I been mod-banned, and TMB is a horse's ass, and I GOT AUTHORITY ON MY SIDE!!"

              And, no, I won't soon forget your dig at my ethnicity. At least I'm not Greek!!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 27 2017, @08:17PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 27 2017, @08:17PM (#574013)

        Friend of mine had a "Question Authority" bumper sticker on the back of his car -- this was late 1970s. All it seemed to get him was more random stops/harassment by the cops.

        His car wasn't a wreck. This was upstate NY. Guy was white, college student, did have long-ish hair. My similar car (no bumper sticker) and similar personal appearance only attracted speeding tickets (all well deserved!) and no other police interest.

        Seemed pretty likely that the bumper sticker was the cause of his problems. We'd never heard the term "profiling" back then, but it was certainly going on.

        • (Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Wednesday September 27 2017, @09:20PM

          by maxwell demon (1608) on Wednesday September 27 2017, @09:20PM (#574046) Journal

          Well, seeing that he was an authority on the topic of questions, they perhaps wanted to see if they can learn something from him. :-)

          --
          The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:33PM (2 children)

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:33PM (#573785) Journal

    A modern ivy league education no longer teaches how to reason, only to regurgitate the Party Line. A full college degree is inferior in many ways to a high school education of the 19th Century.

    Disagree. Trump had this type of privileged education. Look how well spoken and articulate he is. Beautiful flowing speeches the envy of elegant skilled orators everywhere.

    The best thing about Ivy League education is that if daddy's money is donated, you don't even need to have the ability to read or write beyond a fourth grade level in order to graduate from such a fine institution of higher learnin'.

    So don't knock Ivy League edumacations.

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday September 27 2017, @02:40PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 27 2017, @02:40PM (#573818) Journal

      Well, it's true - Bill Clinton is thinking of adopting Donald J. Donny can be the son that Billy never had!

    • (Score: 2) by vux984 on Thursday September 28 2017, @12:18AM

      by vux984 (5045) on Thursday September 28 2017, @12:18AM (#574114)

      Compare donald trump today to donald trump 20 years ago. He was was always an egotistical asshat; but his articulation has declined considerably. He used to regularly put together complex sentences without much difficulty, without the rambling nonsense we see now.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by DannyB on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:39PM

    by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday September 27 2017, @01:39PM (#573787) Journal

    As for your subject line.

    Indeed it is no accident. We don't want people who know how to disagree. We want them to accept what authorities tell them. Products rolling off the assembly line of the education system should be as programmable pliable as possible.

    Reading books about the human condition might cause people to think for themselves. Reality TV is a good substitute for the books of old.

    --
    People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.