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A gunman fired upon thousands of people attending a music festival on the Las Vegas Strip Sunday night, in a brutal attack that is blamed for at least 58 deaths, police say. In the mass shooting and panic that ensued, 515 people were injured. At least one of the dead is an off-duty police officer who was attending the concert.
Editorializing: Interesting how media always emphasize ISLAMIC terrorists, but downplay domestic terrorism as psychologically disturbed individual lone-wolfs.
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Over 50 dead in mass shooting in Las Vegas
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The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
And tomorrow will be like today, only more so.
-- Isaiah 56:12, New Standard Version
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @05:00PM (22 children)
Average Middle-Eastern Muslim is also likely to have directly or indirectly suffered from the US imperialism. Dead relatives and destroyed governments tend to cause some resentment. If Middle-Easterners overreacted on the similar scale as the US does, the entire West would already be destroyed several times over. Fortunately for us, they don't have the resources to do that...
(Score: 3, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @05:47PM (13 children)
Precisely. If I were the average Afghani or Iraqi you bet your ass I'd be cheering on ISIS, in the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sense anyway. Perspective, people!
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:46PM (2 children)
I probably would too. I support the home team when someone is trying to kill members of it, their reasons be damned.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @08:20PM (1 child)
Yup, as would I. I would also probably bang little boys and goats, wipe my ass with my left hand, and send my 12 year old wife to the shed once a month. But I'm not from there, and it wouldn't make any of those things right in my eyes. And I thank God every damn day for this.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @09:14PM
Right or wrong don't matter when someone's trying to kill you.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @07:03PM (9 children)
Careful. No middle easterner, and probably no Asian, considers the "enemey of mine enemy" as a "friend". They may work together for a common cause, but they will still stab each other in the back, cheerfully.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @09:16PM (8 children)
And you know this how? You know, infallibly, the contents of the minds of some 3.5 billion people? Impressive, Miss Cleo...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @09:39PM (3 children)
Yes, you missed, Cleo.
A one word answer to your question would be "tribalism". But, you will refuse to understand that. There are no "nations" in the mideast, as we understand nations. Pretty much everyone gives their loyalty first to their tribe, then to some leader that the tribe supports. Syrians don't support "Syria". They are tribal, and the "nation" of "Syria" is pretty much nonsense to them. That concept was pushed up on them by England, and the rest of the colonizing nations.
But, you won't accept that so try this:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/09/americas-strategy-failing-world-complex-use-enemy-enemy-friend-strategy.html [washingtonsblog.com]
The ancient idea that “The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend” is widely attributed to the Arabs. But it is actually much older … It originated in the 4th century B.C. in India. Kautilya – the “Indian Machiavelli” – wrote about the idea in the Sanskrit military book, the Arthashastra.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/iraq-enemy-my-enemy-not-my-friend [csis.org]
The proverb that the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is not an Arab proverb, it is a Sanskrit proverb that predates the Prophet Muhammad by roughly 1,000 years. It is also a proverb with a dismal history in practice. In case after case, the “enemy of my enemy” has actually proven to have been an enemy at the time or turned into one in the future. The Mongols did not save Europe from the Turks, and the Soviet Union was scarcely an ally after the end of World War II.
____________________________________
Recent history has proven that whenever we believe that the enemy of our enemy is our friend, we make fools of ourselves. Time and time again, our "friends" have turned against us. Let's stop being fools, and stop believing that everyone who fights against Tyrant X must be friends. We are not. At BEST, we are merely allies, until such time as it becomes invonvenient to remain allies. At worst, our ally is secretly plotting with others to kill us as soon as our usefulness has ended.
Only the naive can possibly believe that everyone who resists North Korea are all members of one big happy family.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @04:25AM (2 children)
The Turks weren't enemies of European powers at the time of the Mongolian invasions. In fact, a fair portion of the Mongolian army were recruited/drafted proto-Turks (anyone who could ride and handle a bow in the saddle was guaranteed to become part of the Mongolian army, as I understand it). A better example are the rebellions that happened after Attila the Hun died in 453 AD. Some of the victors and their subsequent descendants were nasty pieces [wikipedia.org] of work.
But the thing to remember here is that even when you know someone will be in future conflict with you, it can still make sense to ally in a present conflict. The Second World War is a good example of that. Fighting the USSR at the same time as Nazi Germany would have been folly for the US and UK to do. Plus, it would have brought the risk that the USSR allies with Nazi Germany (using the same enemies of enemies strategy) to defeat the US/UK Commonwealth alliance. We certainly did not make fools out of ourselves by defeating the worse evil first.
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:56PM (1 child)
Key word, though, in your post, is "alliance". Not "friends", but "allies". We were allied with Communist Russia, or the Soviet. We were never "friends" of the Soviet. They never believed that to be so, nor did we. We were, clearly, just allied, for the purpose of defeating a common enemy.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday October 03 2017, @08:37PM
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday October 02 2017, @10:25PM (3 children)
Please read this page. You'll gag on the partisanship, and you'll probably hate the man for badmouthing Obama and Clinton. But, his first paragraphs put that whole enemy of mine enemy into perspective.
https://www.steynonline.com/6839/the-enemy-of-my-enemy [steynonline.com]
"The Congo Civil War raged for most of the first decade of this century uncovered by CNN and The New York Times for want of any way to blame it on George W Bush. Among the estimated six million dead, many were eaten. The two parties to the conflict agreed on very little except that pygmies make an excellent entrée. Both sides hunted down them down as if they were the drive-thru fast-food of big game. While regarding them as sub-human, they believed that if you roasted their flesh and ate it you would gain magical powers."
Odd, isn't it, that our inclusive left media doesn't include much of the bloodshed in Africa. Rwanda, Congo, South Africa, Ethiopia - the list goes on and on. But, hey, it's the Dark Continent, no one wants to turn the light on, do they? Oh, but - let's not forget South Africa!! What's his name, Nelson Mandela, became president after decades in jails and prisons, right? All without a bunch of killing, right? Uh-huh - right.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday October 02 2017, @10:59PM (1 child)
You make a lot of assumptions you really shouldn't. Just to pick one, I am not a fan of Obama or either Clinton, and would like to see every president we've had since and including Nixon strung up for war crimes. If you think I didn't know what kind of diplomatic Hell middle-east tribalism causes, you're also out of line. Try a little charity now and then, will you? Not everyone on the planet who disagrees with you is ill-informed.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:39AM
Another article, in some ways similar to the one above. The partisanship is from the other side of the aisle, but it's still there. Still, he explains pretty clearly that the saying is quite wrong.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/39427-through-the-looking-glass-how-can-we-recognize-our-friends-in-the-mixed-up-world-of-donald-trump [truth-out.org]
(Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday October 03 2017, @01:38AM
Farther to the left than CNN and the New York Times, there is coverage:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/04/remembering-rwanda-and-clinton-failure/ (Rwanda)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2003/01/out-madness-matriarchy/ (Rwanda)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/what-you-need-know-about-famine-horn-africa-backgrounder/ (Ethiopia)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/10/us-drone-warfare-ethiopia-edition/ (Ethiopia)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/congo-dodd-frank-conflict-minerals/ (Congo)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/bosco-ntaganda-congo-warlord/ (Congo)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/09/fear-loathing-congo-war-criminal/ (Congo)
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/11/congo-conflict-endangered-gorillas-are-pawns-0/ (Congo)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-invisible-war/ (Congo)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopias-becoming-more-homophobic-as-we-speak/ (Ethiopia)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopian-troops-enter-somalia/ (Ethiopia)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/ethiopian-strongman-zenawi-dies/ (Ethiopia)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/rwanda-says-france-participated-in-genocide/ (Rwanda)
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/david-rieff-on-africas-world-war/ (Rwanda)
https://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0417-04.htm (Rwanda)
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/05/16/why-dont-we-care-about-congos-dead (Congo)
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2008/01/24/drc-invisible-war (Congo)
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/01/24/ethiopias-invisible-crisis (Ethiopia)
https://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0525-04.htm (Ethiopia)
https://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/8/they_are_destroying_the_female_species (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/30/congo_humanitarian_crisis_worsens_amidst_renewed (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2008/1/23/corporations_reaping_millions_as_congo_suffers (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/13/congelese_citizens_caught_in_the_crossfire (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/6/21/headlines/un_militia_linked_to_drc_committing_human_rights_abuses_in_kasai (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/4/25/headlines/congo_video_appears_to_show_killing_of_two_un_investigators (Congo)
https://www.democracynow.org/2016/10/11/headlines/ethiopia_prime_minister_declares_state_of_emergency_amid_protests (Ethiopia)
https://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/22/horn_of_africa_famine_millions_at (Ethiopia)
https://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/7/headlines/ethiopia_23_die_in_disputed_circumstances_at_addis_ababa_prison (Ethiopia)
https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/7/refusing_to_call_it_genocide_documents (Rwanda)
https://www.democracynow.org/2014/4/7/20_years_later_rwanda_commemorates_genocide (Rwanda)
https://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/30/congo_humanitarian_crisis_worsens_amidst_renewed (Rwanda)
https://www.democracynow.org/2010/8/31/draft_un_report_accuses_rwandan_troops (Rwanda)
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/10/headlines/south_africa_fistfights_erupt_at_president_zumas_national_address (South Africa)
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/30553-rwanda-how-to-deal-with-a-million-genocide-suspects (Rwanda)
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/23017-us-role-in-rwandan-genocide-a-look-at-rwandan-politics-then-and-now (Rwanda)
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24034-hate-as-a-contagion-the-role-of-media-in-the-rwandan-genocide (Rwanda)
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/24374-the-life-and-crimes-of-war-criminal-bosco-ntaganda (Rwanda)
People were killed in the struggle against apartheid. Who says otherwise?
New York Times on Mandela [nytimes.com]:
(Score: 3, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @06:48PM (3 children)
Don't care. If they're trying to kill Americans or supporting people who do, fuck them. They want to discuss politics, we can do that. They want to kill people, we can do that too. Extremely well.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:33PM
TMB embraces the SJWs!! Who woulda thunk it :D
Snark aside, the solidarity these horrors create is at least a tiny bit of silver lining. Sadly it is so easily manipulated into further screwing us over.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:48PM (1 child)
Because discussing politics with the US worked so well in the past. If you're lucky, US will prop up a *nice* dictator.
The US fucks with entire regions for decades, and when the natives finally snap and start hitting back, the US goes all "fire and fury in righteous anger", misrepresenting retaliation as unprovoked assault.
They're wrong, but that doesn't make you right. You in particular, TMB, seem to be as bloodthirsty as any warlord.
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday October 02 2017, @09:15PM
Not my fault they suck at politics.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by VLM on Monday October 02 2017, @06:53PM (1 child)
Actually, they do, which was one of the 9/11 conspiracy narratives.
In Israel every time a muslim spontaneously explodes, there's like 10 random shooting in the air, for each of those 10 theres a hundred kids throwing rocks at cars.
As per the drug import situation and illegal alien situation literally all "They" need to do is scrape up a couple hundred bucks and they can do what they want to us. That basically no one does plus or minute a probably false flag 9/11 and the occasional gay night club here and there kind of says something about the actual threat level.
It might be one of those "white people have so much agency its oozing out of their pores" checked privilege things but probably all races have enough gumption to mess with us if they want, which approx none of them do despite billions of them. I mean, tens of millions of illegal aliens got in to work at mcdonalds and in the fields, I would assume more than a handful of arabs could figure out how to take airplane rides or drive "assault buses" if they really wanted which apparently they do not because they surely are not despite us provoking the hell out of them.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @11:26PM
VLM this post seems really odd, I would have figured you as more of a "fuck islam glass the place over" kind of person. This post is reasonable and well grounded in reality, wtf? Can you please export this thinking to your fellow conservatives, maybe soon we can get enough political clout to reverse the clusterfuck of the early 2000s?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 02 2017, @07:11PM (1 child)
I agree this is only salting the wound. But I don't agree with the implication that this is the cause. Islam has a major problem with violence. Even between Muslims, Shia and Sunni to this day are killing one another over a disagreement on who should succeed Mohammed after his death... 1400 years ago. Maybe that is something more fundamental. Islam itself seems to be stuck about 1400 years in the past. You can find awful things in all religions' texts. Deute|ronmy 13:6-11 [biblegateway.com] clearly says to kill anybody who encourages you to apostatize by stoning them to death, and then make sure everybody knows about it so they're scared and won't do such an evil thing. Literally. But the thing is, nobody takes that crap seriously. By contrast the whole of the Koran and side writings are, to this day, treated as the literal word of god by many Muslims. And those words tell people to do incredibly awful things.
There are many reasons for the more literal take on Islam today, but I think that alone is the root cause.
As an aside you can also look to countries that have treated Muslims kindly. There's hardly a country in the world that has ever had any significant number of Islamic individuals that did not begin to experience Islamic terrorism and insurgencies. Sweden has done absolutely every single thing they possibly could for Muslim individuals and refugees. They've been rewarded with terrorism. If you're not Islamic you're the enemy. If you're Islamic, but not the right type of Islamic, you're the enemy. The religion has fundamental issues.
(Score: 2) by infodragon on Tuesday October 03 2017, @02:26PM
Most people don't realize that the religions surrounding the Jews, at that time, involved human sacrifice... So those people attempting to convince you to worship other gods secretly were in reality asking you to murder others. There was a very good chance that if you refused you would be killed otherwise you could expose their desires. That text you link to is permission for self defense. Not to mention, there is a significant amount of context missing from this from the oral tradition.
You have done what so many others have done to pervert and twist religious text, take something out of context to make a point.
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