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Santa is real dead:
Turkish archaeologists have dashed the hopes of millions of children by claiming to have uncovered the likely burial place of Saint Nicholas.
Surveys have uncovered an intact temple and burial grounds below St Nicholas church in the province of Antalya, where he is believed to have been born, archaeologists told the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet. "We have obtained very good results but the real work starts now," said Cemil Karabayram, the director of surveying and monuments in Antalya. "We will reach the ground and maybe we will find the untouched body of Saint Nicholas."
Revered for his gift-giving and aid to the poor, the 4th-century saint gave rise to the legend of Santa Claus. In recent years, the church in Demre district in Antalya, near his birthplace, has been restored and draws many visitors. Demre is built on the ruins of Myra, the city where Saint Nicholas, revered by many denominations in Christianity, is believed to have lived.
Also at CNET.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by PartTimeZombie on Thursday October 05 2017, @02:07AM (8 children)
He's quite well known in that "Early Church father who did some nice things, we think, let's make him a saint" sort of way.
Sinterklaas is a Dutch tradition based on him, and Santa Claus comes from that.
The whole saint business seems pretty weird to me. I wonder if the early church was so keen to convert pagans (in the period before they started killing everyone who didn't get baptised) that they just let them keep a few of their old gods, and just called them "saints".
Anyway, praying to someone other than the actual god you are supposed to worship doesn't sound much like monotheism to me.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Thursday October 05 2017, @02:14AM (3 children)
Yes, in fact, that's exactly what they did. Old gods became saints and/or devils, and their festivals were adopted and dressed up with supposedly Christian re-interpretations.
"Anyway, praying to someone other than the actual god you are supposed to worship doesn't sound much like monotheism to me."
Exactly why a common word for 'christian' in much of the world translates to 'polytheist.' You're far from the first or only person to think that.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Thursday October 05 2017, @08:42PM (2 children)
Maybe, in a few cases, like St. Bridget (Irish one) [newadvent.org], where the saint takes on some of the attributes of a previous goddess, but Catholic Saints have to have been actual historical persons, to whom a particular number of miracles are attributed, by reliable witnesses, according to Canon Law.
One Saint, Christopher, was demoted in 1969 [franciscanmedia.org], because the evidence for his actual existence was dubious. So the gods have to sneak in.
I always thought that Saint Nick took over some of the roles of the Celtic god Cernunnos [wikipedia.org], who may have been the "keeper of deer", a god who receives the souls of game animals who have been killed by humans, and reincarnates them and sends the back into the world. However, if the souls of the animals complain of mistreatment of their bodies or a lack of respect from the humans, the god would withhold the animals. So you see, originally the reindeer themselves were the presents.
(Score: 2) by Arik on Friday October 06 2017, @02:57AM (1 child)
Of course that doesn't explain ALL the saints but many of them. And it seems to be MORE about the festivals than the personality itself, for instance there is no 'Saint Easter' but the day of the festival, and many of the traditions, along with the name all come from a pagan goddess by that name. The personality of the goddess was discarded as too incompatible (well, in fact elements of it were incorporated into the character of Jesus) but the day and customs were continued nonetheless, just with a new myth for the backdrop. Halloween was innovated twice, originally placed on the first sunday after pentacost, to coincide wtih one pagan festival, and then changed (but only in the west) to instead coïncide with a different pagan festival, one better known in the western lands. And Christmas is probably the most obvious example - the existing (and wildly popular) pagan mid-winter festival continued uninterrupted, they only had to change the decoration and use different names.
"One Saint, Christopher, was demoted in 1969 [franciscanmedia.org], because the evidence for his actual existence was dubious. So the gods have to sneak in."
One of them, in roughly 2k years. Not really restoring confidence - especially since that's 1969. The period of greatest invention was the first few centuries.
"I always thought that Saint Nick took over some of the roles of the Celtic god Cernunnos [wikipedia.org], who may have been the "keeper of deer", a god who receives the souls of game animals who have been killed by humans, and reincarnates them and sends the back into the world. However, if the souls of the animals complain of mistreatment of their bodies or a lack of respect from the humans, the god would withhold the animals. So you see, originally the reindeer themselves were the presents. "
Interestingly, that's strikingly similar to the Cherokee mythology I grew up with. It was believed that each 'people' (nearly the same as species in this context) had their own god or spirit, and one of the more important ones, the deer spirit, was described as doing just the same thing.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 2) by aristarchus on Friday October 06 2017, @04:20AM
Actually, I think I got it from the Naskapi, of Canada, so we may be trans-atlantic-ing primal people's beliefs to Celtic Europe. But it is not all that far fetched.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday October 05 2017, @03:27AM
If you think THAT was a cut and paste job, go look up Saint Josaphat, the "renouncer." Indian saint who gave up his riches and family and birthright to pursue holiness. If you said that sounds like Sakyamuni Buddha, well, you'd be right. Exactly right.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 05 2017, @06:19AM (2 children)
The Dutch tradition goes back at least to around 1665: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feast_of_Saint_Nicholas [wikipedia.org] (great painter BTW, his work is pretty funny and there is a lot to discover in his paintings).
Not sure if there are older, reliable sources.
(Score: 2) by inertnet on Thursday October 05 2017, @07:52AM (1 child)
It goes way back further, a version existed even before Christianity: .
As happened everywhere, when christened, the locals molded their original gods and ghosts to fit into their new religion. That becomes very clear if you visit different countries, in many places people still fear ancient local witches and ghosts and the like. For instance, some non Christian witch is often held responsible for stillbirths. For the uninformed, a stillbirth is proof that the witch really exists.
(Score: 2) by inertnet on Thursday October 05 2017, @12:49PM
Hmm, messed up the URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas#Pre-Christian_Europe [wikipedia.org]