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posted by takyon on Friday October 27 2017, @11:15PM   Printer-friendly
from the freedonia dept.

This afternoon, Catalonia declared independence. At the same time, Spain invoked article 155, to strip Catalonia from its governing powers putting it under direct rule from the federal government. A vote for independence was raised in Catalonian parliament, with part of parliament leaving before the vote on independence started. The motion declaring independence was approved with 70 in favor, 10 against, and two abstentions of the normal 135 total.

From RT: https://www.rt.com/news/407956-catalan-parliament-votes-independence/
From Aljazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-parliament-begins-vote-independence-171027115908493.html
From BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41780116

It will be interesting to see how things unfold. In my opinion, Madrid using violence to stop a referendum gave it the legality they later claim the referendum didn't have. The lack of dialogue paved the way into the only possible outcome, Catalonia declaring independence and Madrid denying it. Whatever happens next, I hope will be peaceful. As to how the EU reacts, I'm hoping they ask for an official referendum, and whatever the outcome, pledges that both Catalonia and Spain will be able to remain in the EU if they desire. That may release tensions a bit.


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  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:50AM (13 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @12:50AM (#588482)

    Currently the EU is a mess. There is, mostly, a shared currency, but taxes and benefits are uneven. This is not long-term viable.

    We had this for America, under the articles of confederation, before we ratified our constitution. It didn't go well.

    So the EU needs to sort things out, becoming a proper nation. Parts that don't agree need to be kicked out. The parts staying in the EU need to lose their national character, much as the US states generally did. Redrawing all the internal borders would go a long way toward that. Each existing "country" of the EU should be split or merged, with much of the old government being absorbed into a federal EU government.

    A nice way to go about it would be to redraw based on language. This could be redone every decade.

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (1 child)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:14AM (#588493)

    So the EU needs to sort things out, becoming a proper nation.

    But nationalism is eeevvvviiiillll!

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by jmorris on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:57AM

      by jmorris (4844) on Saturday October 28 2017, @06:57AM (#588596)

      Empires are usually evil, and that is all the EU can ever aspire to since there is no commonality in the mismash of nations it seeks to dominate in Germany's name. Does this EU everyone is so enamored of have a common language? A common culture, a common people, a common history, a common enemy, ANYTHING in common? No. The correct word for a single political entity ruling over a bunch of beaten peoples is EMPIRE.

      Nationalism can be a good thing, can be a bad thing. I'm afraid the U.S. is in almost the same shape though, other than a mostly common language (that is quickly vanishing into a Tower of Babel) and history, we are losing the common culture and starting to split into warring tribes who hate each other. Nationalism here might very well end up with several nations but our warring tribes don't neatly split along geographic boundaries so much unpleasantness will result as that sorts itself out.

      On the other hand, it does appear that there ARE a lot of natural nations in Europe, problem is they don't all neatly fall along the existing borders. Catalonia seems to meet most of the qualifications as do at least a half dozen more such examples. But since they want to be in the EU it makes it mostly pointless and impossible. Every fragment would rather be a direct EU member and cut out the middleman but the EU can't function now, it knows it can't with twice the voting membership. So this will be a lot of noise and drama that accomplishes nothing, nobody is going to take this to a shooting war over Catalonia's place in the EU org chart. Nobody is going to enlist and possibly die in that cause.

  • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:40AM (4 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:40AM (#588500)

    America, even back then, was very different from the EU now. For one, they mostly all spoke English, since they were a bunch of English colonies. They didn't have greatly differing cultures like Germany vs. Greece. One big problem is that having the same currency means sharing a monetary policy, which works out well for some members and not so well for others, which is exactly what we've seen with Greece and Portugal. I'm not sure how to solve that.

    If it weren't for the monetary problem, in theory it shouldn't be *that* hard for this motley crew of countries to have an alliance and get along together. It seems to me that they should work to eliminate existing borders between nations, and water down their sovereignty, and break them up into smaller units so the union isn't dominated by a few very large nations and their wishes. Then it'd be more like what we have here in the US, with the states not having so much power, but still having the power to do many things their own way, which in a union with so many languages would be even more desirable. There's long been internal strife and tensions in many EU nations because of the way they were formed and the way borders were drawn (usually as the result of war, but sometimes stupid royal marriages centuries ago). IMO, they should just ask the people in different regions what they want to do, and generally try to give them their own separate nation where they can have all the signs in their preferred language, but the region is large enough to be a viable "state" with its own government (i.e., not the size of Andorra). As part of the EU, with free trade between members, a shared currency, and perhaps with a merged military, it really shouldn't matter that much if a place like Catalonia is independent or not. It shouldn't matter any more than if California were to break in half: would that really be such a bad thing if it happened?

    Nationalism is precisely what led to WWI and WWII in Europe, and nationalism is what IMO is driving Madrid to refuse to allow Catalonia to secede. Catalonia doesn't want to leave the EU, just Spain and the bad memories they still have there. As part of the EU, they'll still be paying taxes to help out other member states, and hopefully the EU will move to be more integrated that way in the future too.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:59AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:59AM (#588510)

      For small values of "most" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States#History [wikipedia.org]

      The "we could be speaking German now" may be a myth, but that a lot of German speaking moved from Europe is not. It was the second language for a long time.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:15AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @04:15AM (#588561)

      Nationalism did not lead to WW1 or WW2. What lead to WW1 and WW2 were corrupt governments, and a willingness of violation of national soveriegnty. Nationalism is about soveriegnty for a people of a country. Violating that sovereignty is against nationalism. Its like how people have rights which are there own as independant beings, like free speech. If you get into a bar fight, we wouldn't blame it on their individual rights to things like free speech giving them the right to beat up other people. Being a free willed being doesnt give you the right to beat up other people and take away their free will. Most people do not want war. The people of the nations, have been cheated by corrupt governments and elitists. Governments are not nations. Nations are the people. People have been manipulated, abused, propogandized and cheated for a long time by corrupt governments to serve the elite. Now you are rewarding the elite and punishing the victims, if you blame the people of the nations.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:42PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:42PM (#588701) Journal

        Violating that sovereignty is against nationalism.

        Only if you share the same nation. Being a nationalist doesn't mean that you respect other nations other than your own.

        What lead to WW1 and WW2 were corrupt governments, and a willingness of violation of national soveriegnty.

        Corruption is a vague term and a matter of degree. Every government is corrupt to some degree so in the absence of any more concrete criteria, we have the preconditions necessary for the next global war even though no such war has happened yet.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:42AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:42AM (#588586)

      If not nationalism what do you believe to be driving Catalonian independence? This isn't to ask what stirred up the pot (violence against voters in the referendum), but in reference to the reasoning behind the desire for independence in the first place.

      What do you believe the difference between nationalism and individualism is when nationalism comes from a large group of individuals who desire self-determination as a nation? Why is a focus on the self, whether it be as an individual or as a nation, somehow a catalyst for agression and violence in your mind?

  • (Score: 2) by Geotti on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:50AM (1 child)

    by Geotti (1146) on Saturday October 28 2017, @01:50AM (#588504) Journal

    need to lose their national character, much as the US states generally did.

    Wut?! You do understand the fine difference between the US, which has been colonized and became a nation at some point and a supranational organization like the EU, which is not a nation and will hardly ever be one, don't you? A constitution would be great, a federal system would be awesome, but currently the eurosceptics are gaining more momentum every day and unless the causes for this are eliminated, the EU is going to break apart before that happens.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:43PM

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:43PM (#588702) Journal

      and a supranational organization like the EU, which is not a nation and will hardly ever be one

      I'm not so confident in that matter. The blob has already usurped a fair bit of power from its member nations.

  • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:50AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @03:50AM (#588553)

    Just abolish the EU instead. Problem solved. People go to visit France, Germany. France has champagne and Foie Gras and Germany has Ale, Bratwurst and Schnitzel. People want each country to have its own unique sovereign flavor and nature. Since it clearly takes abolishing EU to preserve the European national identities, get on with it. You don't want to become another US with McDonalds and Wal-marts everywhere.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:25AM

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday October 28 2017, @05:25AM (#588583)

    Why exactly do you believe the members of the EU would have any desire to do that?

    It's commonly believed that the reasons for joining the EU were for economic benefit, and to compete as a unified power on the world stage. An attempt for countries to self-enrich, not self-sacrifice.
    Do you believe that to be wrong? Do you believe there was some other motive for joining?

  • (Score: 2) by rleigh on Saturday October 28 2017, @09:22AM

    by rleigh (4887) on Saturday October 28 2017, @09:22AM (#588619) Homepage

    The prospective loss of national identity, sovereignty etc. isn't something that many people would find desirable or acceptable. We don't want to lose our nations, and we have zero love of or loyalty to the EU, unlike our own countries. That's one of the main reasons I voted to leave in the British referendum last year. When you blithely say nations "need to lose their national character", I think you need to look long and hard at the implications of that, and think about whose goals your are furthering by doing do; it's not in the interests of the actual people who live in those nations, you're taking away what makes them them, and what they are proud of. The long terms goals of the EU with a federal army etc. are not benign or democratic; do you really want to live under the jackboots of people who want to further their interests at your expense?

  • (Score: 2) by SanityCheck on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:24AM

    by SanityCheck (5190) on Sunday October 29 2017, @06:24AM (#588955)

    It will never become a nation, nor should it. Lot of countries didn't sign up to be a nation, and they will fucking leave because no one likes you changing the rules of the club once people have joined.