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from the C,-C-Rust,-C-Rust-Go,-Go-Rust-Go! dept.
In which ESR pontificates on the future while reflecting on the past.
I was thinking a couple of days ago about the new wave of systems languages now challenging C for its place at the top of the systems-programming heap – Go and Rust, in particular. I reached a startling realization – I have 35 years of experience in C. I write C code pretty much every week, but I can no longer remember when I last started a new project in C!
...
I started to program just a few years before the explosive spread of C swamped assembler and pretty much every other compiled language out of mainstream existence. I'd put that transition between about 1982 and 1985. Before that, there were multiple compiled languages vying for a working programmer's attention, with no clear leader among them; after, most of the minor ones were simply wiped out. The majors (FORTRAN, Pascal, COBOL) were either confined to legacy code, retreated to single-platform fortresses, or simply ran on inertia under increasing pressure from C around the edges of their domains.Then it stayed that way for nearly thirty years. Yes, there was motion in applications programming; Java, Perl, Python, and various less successful contenders. Early on these affected what I did very little, in large part because their runtime overhead was too high for practicality on the hardware of the time. Then, of course, there was the lock-in effect of C's success; to link to any of the vast mass of pre-existing C you had to write new code in C (several scripting languages tried to break that barrier, but only Python would have significant success at it).
One to RTFA rather than summarize. Don't worry, this isn't just ESR writing about how great ESR is.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Friday November 10 2017, @10:42PM (5 children)
I think the problem is the ESR is measuring life and death by the creation of entirely new projects - realistically how many _new_ major kernels or system library projects are being written in C these days? I can't think of any, except possibly systemd which probably doesn't count because it shouldn't be written ever in anything, or something like that... The real question is does it matter? I'd say no. It is merely a sign of the maturity of what we have got, if you want a kernel you use an existing one, same for system libraries.
What ESR is saying is like saying concrete is dead because no one is creating or researching new types of concrete foundation - everyone just picks a concrete foundation type that suits the building and uses that. The reality is that there is still a heck of a lot of concrete being used in foundations, and a heck of a lot of work available in doing it, but it may not be particularly interesting for some people because it is (largely) a _solved problem_. Same goes with programming foundations.
Is concrete dead? No.
Is C dead? ditto.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Friday November 10 2017, @11:27PM (4 children)
Your point there is good, but I think you're incorrect about concrete. We wouldn't know much about it here because there's likely no civil engineers on this site, but there's a good amount of research still being done on improving concrete.
If I were to try to think of other examples of things that are basically solved problems and there's really nothing new going on, just reimplementations of what's already known, I'd guess 1) laser printers (those haven't changed at all in 10-15 years now, except the engines having more memory and faster CPUs so they rasterize pages faster), 2) automobile suspensions (these haven't changed significantly in 15-20 years, and in some ways have gotten a little worse/cheaper), 3) automobile brakes (20 years, some high-end cars have carbon brakes but race cars had those a couple decades ago), and 4) speakers (they're all just paper/plastic cones and voice coils like 50-100 years ago, and frequently plastic or metal dome tweeters; there were some different technologies explored a couple decades ago like electrostatic speakers but they never caught on).
Of course, there's also technologies which have gotten significantly worse over time: 1) computer keyboards (they continue to get worse and worse, with the latest being "island keyboards" on laptops), and 2) desktop computer UIs (they peaked around 2005-2009, and have gotten horrifically bad since 2010).
(Score: 2) by crafoo on Saturday November 11 2017, @01:55AM (1 child)
I'm an optimist. I think the UI thing will turn. Just like a wheel, all that was old is new again. I'm looking forward to the invention of the menu bar and boxes around buttons.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Saturday November 11 2017, @02:40AM
It'll take at least a decade; we have to wait for a new crop of young people to rise up and displace the current 25-30yo idiots who are pushing this shit.
I'm looking forward to the "invention" of 3D-looking buttons.
(Score: 2) by choose another one on Saturday November 11 2017, @02:09PM (1 child)
I know it's not a perfect analogy, but I still think it is a good one. Sure there is work still being done on improving concrete itself but it is tinkering, if you take, say, skyscrapers the basic foundation design is concrete piles and concrete mat/raft - Chicago has been building on concrete piles for over a century, some sets of piles have even been reused for new buildings. Sears/willis (1970) sits on a bunch of concrete piles and a mat, so does Burj Khalifa (c2004), so does the BT Tower in London (50yrs old) and the Shard (2009) on the other side of the river. Skyscraper foundations were a problem before 1900 (big problems in Chicago), but for at least the last 50yrs - solved problem.
Automobile brakes? Yes, buuuttt... hybrids and EVs have brought re-gen braking, an addition rather than replacement but nonetheless arguably a major change. The others - yep.
Computer keyboards getting worse - nah. My kids may argue over which colour cherry keyswitches they want, but the IBM Model M will always win simply because it is so much heavier and therefore shuts kids up so much faster when you hit them over the head with it :-) What is getting worse is the standard of keyboard provided with modern consumer computer kit - but that is just because most modern consumers don't actually need or want (to pay for) a decent keyboard, so it's been value-engineered out.
As to UI, yes it's gone backwards, and not just on the desktop. I don't think we will see 3D buttons on desktop again, because real live buttons no longer look or work that way. I can think of stacks of examples, too many to list, but I think we must have reached the tipping point where touch screen UIs are cheaper to design and build than physical moving buttons, because touchscreen-for-the-sake-of-it UI is all around us. UI discovery has moved from "what does this button do" to "where the **** do I prod the featureless bit of glass/plastic to get something to happen". UI design will now move on through gesture control to voice control, because we have to fix the mess we've made of physical UI somehow.
Voice control will get messed up too once we start making stuff too "smart" - refer to Douglas Adams' predictions from decades ago for this, he was actually a great observer (and predictor) of technology and UI. I give it maybe ten years before Alexa has a mode that analyses your tone of voice and will only open the door if you ask it nicely, it'll be a fair few more years before opening the door requires an argument and a threat to reprogram the computer with an axe (or counting, or maybe quoting C code at it!), but it'll happen.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday November 13 2017, @01:31AM
Automobile brakes? Yes, buuuttt... hybrids and EVs have brought re-gen braking, an addition rather than replacement but nonetheless arguably a major change.
I disagree; it's an addition like you said, not a change at all to the actual mechanics of the friction brakes. They're the same; they're just not actuated quite the same. This is splitting hairs perhaps.
Computer keyboards getting worse - nah. My kids may argue over which colour cherry keyswitches they want, but the IBM Model M will always win simply because it is so much heavier
The Model M is only still made by one tiny company for enthusiasts (and even there, it's generally said to not be quite as good as the originals). Back in the "old days", those keyboards used to be ubiquitous and standard, and others were somewhat similar even if not quite as good (such as the old Dell Quietkey).
What is getting worse is the standard of keyboard provided with modern consumer computer kit
And see, this is the problem: you can only use a dedicated keyboard with a desktop computer or a docking station or if you plug it into a USB port on your laptop. You won't be taking it with you, and these days, most PC users have laptops, not desktops, so we're pretty much stuck with whatever craptastic keyboard they build in. For a while, it wasn't so bad: the Thinkpad keyboards were generally considered the very best, and the Dell Latitude keyboards a close runner-up, while keyboards on cheaper laptops were generally crap. Not any more; the keyboards on both Thinkpads and Latitudes have gone down the tubes, with the adoption of the "island" keyboard scheme.
I don't think we will see 3D buttons on desktop again, because real live buttons no longer look or work that way.
We still have real live buttons on some things. But they are fading. But even in cars, we still have knobs and buttons, though a few shitty brands have tried to eliminate them, but there's no agreement across the industry on this at all. Touchscreens are dangerous in cars if intended to control major functions while driving (they're fine for displaying info, and for accessing rarely-used settings).