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posted by Fnord666 on Wednesday January 03 2018, @05:28AM   Printer-friendly
from the CRISPR-chocolate dept.

If you can't maintain a viable habitat for cacao trees in the wild, maybe you can genetically design them to survive the world that's coming?

Scientists forecast that reduced humidity, caused by rising temperatures, will make cacao trees extremely vulnerable by 2050, threatening the chocolate industry. Luckily for cacao farmers and chocolate fiends, researchers are attempting to save the bean-like seeds with CRISPR, the same gene-editing technology associated with creating “designer babies,” eradicating diseases, and bringing back the wooly mammoth.

According to a report published Sunday by Business Insider, scientists at the University of California, Berkeley and the global confectionary company Mars are collaborating to create cacao plants that can survive in warmer temperatures and drier conditions. Scientists at the university’s Innovative Genomics Institute are using CRISPR to enable them to grow in different elevations while being disease-resistant.

[...] This project is a part of Mars’s larger initiative, a $1 billion pledge to reduce the carbon footprint of its business and increase the sustainability of the crops used in its products. In 2008, Mars launched the Cacao Genome Project, an effort to publicly release the sequence of the cacao gene so breeders could “begin identifying traits of climate change adaptability, enhanced yield, and efficiency in water and nutrient use.”

Yay, open source - does this mean we're going to get designer chocolates with extra good stuff grown right in at the source? Chocolate Kingdom grows a few specimen cacao trees indoors in Orlando. They're a little on the tall side for commercial indoor cultivation, but maybe if they're putting out high quality theobromine and similar goodies, it might make commercial sense.


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  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday January 04 2018, @01:11AM (18 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday January 04 2018, @01:11AM (#617452)

    Um.... this time you really need to read some of the articles.

    Cacao is one of the pickiest crops on the planet - it needs equatorial moderation in its climate, and climate change is pushing its viable production altitudes higher... there just isn't that much farmland at high equatorial altitudes, and growing it indoors would be a great way to push the cost of a Hershey's special dark chocolate bar up from $3 to $300.

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  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday January 04 2018, @05:01AM (17 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday January 04 2018, @05:01AM (#617521) Journal
    Yes, I get that there's plenty of FUD out there. Lots of crops are picky. They'll figure it out like they do other crops when they move the farms.
    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @01:43AM (16 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @01:43AM (#618153)

      Do you think, for even a second, that nobody has tried to grow cacao in, oh, say, South Florida? Or even on the big Island in Hawaii? If it worked economically, there would be plantations of it in Homestead. The big island is sticking with coffee and Mac nuts - I'm sure if their recently abandoned cattle land were suitable, they'd already be planting.

      The point of the program is to breed in traits that will allow cacao to extend its range, as is - it doesn't work.

      Oh, and BTW, the summary I submitted included a bit about the equatorial distribution of the crop, but the editors seemed to think that was not important and instead replaced it with some spoon feeding of what is CRISPR...

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      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 05 2018, @07:01AM (15 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 05 2018, @07:01AM (#618245) Journal

        Do you think, for even a second, that nobody has tried to grow cacao in, oh, say, South Florida?

        Of course not. And I see that they succeeded [fairchildgarden.org] too.

        Growing Cacao In South Florida

        Select an area protected from wind and providing partial shade. The richest organic soil in your home garden should be devoted to your cacao plant for optimal conditions. The soil should be moist, but not water-logged, as this will cause disease on the roots and the developing pods of your plant. In absence of a rich organic soil a large hole can be dug and filled with a mixture of peat moss and sand. This will allow for proper root development and health of the plant.

        In your home garden the cacao tree will take up to four years to begin to bear fruit. The time from flower pollination to a fully developed pod is from five to seven months. The pods come in a rainbow of colors from green to yellow, red and purple. Some pods are striped with two and even three colors at full maturity. There could be no easier display than an eye-catching grouping of cacao pods on a simple table.

        Selecting tree: Cocoa plants can be purchased from local specialty nurseries in Florida; however, they are usually seedling plants. Seedling cacao plants may be self-incompatible, and their flowering will result in little or no pod production. It is a good idea to plant multiple plants to increase pollination and the chance of fruit production. There are self-fruitful types of cacao that will bloom and fruit in isolation, but these are not generally available in South Florida at this time.

        Cold protection: Cold protection must be provided for young trees by covering the entire tree with a blanket or with the use of a large cardboard box. Even with protection, the leaves of the cacao tree will develop brown leaf edges during the winter and Spring months due to cold, low humidity and winds. Thoroughly watering the area around your tree on the day of cold danger will also help to protect it. The well-watered soil will absorb more solar radiation than dry soil, radiating heat during the night.

        Pruning: Pruning for height control may be necessary if all goes well. Pruning should be done at the end of the summer to prepare the tree for the following crop.

        Fertilizing: A granular fertilizer like an 8-3-9 or similar formulation should be applied in June and August. The granular fertilizer should be spread lightly below the drip line. A foliar minor element spray and iron drench can be done in June and August to improve the growth of the tree.

        Notice that they don't bother with serious thermal protection (like a greenhouse) or pollination techniques though the plant does need some babying during Florida winters.

        So now that we've established that one can grow cacao in south Florida (and probably a lot of other places in the world, where cacao isn't currently grown, under global warming), maybe we should consider why we have yet another Chicken Little story about climate change? Those journalists can google as easily as I can. This link wasn't hard to find.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @01:50PM (14 children)

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @01:50PM (#618313)

          Sure, and they grow bananas in Houston - until that one freeze (like in 2003) sweeps through and kills them all back to the ground. Not a commercial crop there. There are huge tracts of commercial farms in Homestead / the Redlands, they grow all kinds of semi-tropical things there because of the unique climate not otherwise found in the continental US... cacao plantations apparently aren't attractive enough to the free market to bother with there yet.

          Fairchild tropical gardens is a wonderful place, a little fantasy land of semi-tropical hobby gardeners built on a few acres of land that has too much water for practical residential development. They are hobbyists, perhaps semi-serious botanists, not commercial farmers.

          Cacao is not an above freezing plant, it's an above 50F plant. Brief freezes do swing through South Florida, once every 25 years or so (counter-intuitively: more with global warming), 50F episodes are of course much more common - infact, Miami is at 48 degrees this very morning. Ask Fairchild how their cacao hobbyists are doing in February. Some will have protected micro-climates that the trees survive in, but mass commercial plantings? That would require extensive soil preparation, years of growing cover crops like Madre d'Cacao for appropriate shade for young cacao, and the other thing that swings through South Florida every 20 years or so? Lots and lots of wind - so all the time taken growing the cover-shade trees is wiped back to nothing and we start over. They could put up shade-netting to speed the process, but that's costly, and also wiped out in windstorms. And, as I noted, they are also growing a few token cacao trees indoors in Orlando - if it were valuable enough, they could build massive climate controlled grow warehouses anywhere in the world, but... that's quite a bit more expensive than just letting naturally occurring cacao grow in its natural habitat.

          I don't doubt that the journalists are lazy and stop as soon as they find a global warming tie sufficient to get eyeballs on their story and advertising.

          I do doubt that M&M Mars is investing this effort in expanding cacao's range if there are already plenty of other places where cacao can be grown commercially.

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          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 05 2018, @05:16PM (13 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 05 2018, @05:16PM (#618393) Journal

            Sure, and they grow bananas in Houston - until that one freeze (like in 2003) sweeps through and kills them all back to the ground.

            Moving the goalposts I see now that we've determined that south Florida is indeed viable. How many freezes will there be when global warming continues to happen? Any climate change strong enough to drive out the cacao tree from its current locations will make south Florida and other semi-tropical places much more habitable for the plant.

            And let us keep in mind that cacao grows in Africa because someone planted it there. It's from South America. And it is sufficiently indelicate that small farmers can grow it.

            And to continue on the original point, it remains ridiculous to assert that chocolate is going away just because of global warming. This is why I'm a luke-warmist. FUD is a classic symptom of cons and we should think about why someone wants to push a narrative of the end of chocolate on us.

            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @05:40PM (12 children)

              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @05:40PM (#618407)

              now that we've determined that south Florida is indeed viable.

              Not at all, a couple of hobbyists growing a few plants in their backyard is far from a commercial crop. There was a commercial crop of Avocados in Homestead right up until Hurricane Andrew uprooted them all - after that, the commercial market backed off from the idea that South Florida was a good place to grow Avocados - commercially. Maybe they're back now, but I doubt it. Are there still avocado trees in the backyards in Miami? Absolutely, I had one that was only knocked to 45 degrees by Andrew, and it continued to produce prolifically, but that's not a commercial crop of 10 acres of trees - those all got tipped 90 degrees because they weren't surrounded by houses blocking the brunt of the winds.

              How many freezes will there be when global warming continues to happen?

              You do understand the aspects of climate change where some places will get colder? Like all of Northern Europe... Other places will get more chaotic (more energetic systems). Overall the average temperature is going up, but the story is far from that simple.

              Any climate change strong enough to drive out the cacao tree from its current locations will make south Florida and other semi-tropical places much more habitable for the plant.

              No, I guess you just don't understand. Equatorial regions have basically the same weather year-round. High elevation equatorial regions have a constant moderately cool temperature. Those climates aren't moving, they are shrinking and disappearing. The higher latitudes are cooler, on average, but also subject to more seasonal variability. Variability that increases as the average temperatures rise.

              why someone wants to push a narrative of the end of chocolate on us.

              Yahoo news? For yellow journalism scare factor, eyeballs to the advertisers. Dig deeper into the story? M&M Mars isn't doing this to scare anyone, they're attempting to preserve their business.

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              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 05 2018, @09:29PM (11 children)

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 05 2018, @09:29PM (#618524) Journal

                Not at all, a couple of hobbyists growing a few plants in their backyard is far from a commercial crop.

                Only a matter of scale.

                There was a commercial crop of Avocados in Homestead right up until Hurricane Andrew uprooted them all - after that, the commercial market backed off from the idea that South Florida was a good place to grow Avocados - commercially.

                *sigh*. Let's do the obvious Google search. Turns out the commercial market didn't "back off" [usda.gov], during the 1992 hurricane.

                The forecast [2002-2003 season] of avocados for certified shipments is increased 50,000 bushels to 1,150,000 bushels. The original forecast last August was 1,050,000 bushels. If realized, this will be 29 percent more than last season’s 891,000 bushels shipped and the largest crop since the 1,300,000 bushels in the 1989-90 season. Shipments through December totaled 1,126,200 bushels. Weekly shipments are declining seasonally.

                Look at the subsequent table. One can see the effects of the hurricane in greatly reduced yields for the first two (1992-1994) seasons. The 1996-1997 season was two thirds of the highest pre-Andrew season, and the 2002-2003 season is only about 10% below that.

                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @10:04PM (9 children)

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @10:04PM (#618536)

                  couple of hobbyists growing a few plants in their backyard is far from a commercial crop.

                  Only a matter of scale.

                  More a matter of efficiency, Suzie Q. Gardener can spend lots of time and effort fussing over her 12 precious cacao trees in the backyard - that time and effort translates to impractical costs when you scale it up. Here's a bit of research from UF's ag extension office: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/hs307 [ufl.edu] note the title: "Growing in the Florida Home Landscape" and the description "can be grown in well protected areas, and they make unique, interesting, challenging, and fun additions to the home landscape."

                  For what it's worth, Hawaii thinks they have between 315 and 3000 acres of land where they could potentially grow cocoa, with 50 acres in production in 2009: https://hdoa.hawaii.gov/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cacao-Report-HCR-326-H.D.-2-v.12.10.09-Final.pdf [hawaii.gov] According to this http://cacaotrace.com/cocoa-world [cacaotrace.com] there's about 29,000 square miles of land currently in cocoa production (4.15M tons produced, average 500kg/ha), so Hawaii estimates that they may be able to add up to 5 square miles to that total - woo f-ing hoo. Same for South Florida, really.

                  Nice research on the avocados - I would have liked to see numbers pre-Andrew, all you show is post. Appears the industry did recover - my Uncle farmed 1/2 acre of avocados until the storm, after the storm I went driving through the redlands and passed hundreds of acres of overturned trees, 5-15 years of growth killed in a day. I guess, based on your table, they decided to go back into it. Even with the threat of storm damage, it appears avocados are still more profitable to grow in South Florida than cocoa.

                  The 1996-1997 season was two thirds of the highest pre-Andrew season,

                  I only see one page, the one that starts in 1992... even back here https://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Florida/Publications/Citrus/Avocado/ [usda.gov] the reports don't go back very far in time.

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                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday January 05 2018, @11:20PM (8 children)

                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday January 05 2018, @11:20PM (#618552) Journal

                    More a matter of efficiency, Suzie Q. Gardener can spend lots of time and effort fussing over her 12 precious cacao trees in the backyard - that time and effort translates to impractical costs when you scale it up.

                    And what's supposed to be the inefficiency here? You don't need to grow them indoors in south Florida. That primary inefficiency is avoided. I read the articles on this. They aren't describing anything particularly labor intensive. As I noted earlier, so what if the cacao plant is picky? People grow picky plants all the time. Just because it's not worth their while now, doesn't it'll always be that way.

                    Same for South Florida, really.

                    South Florida is a lot bigger. And the tropical and subtropical world consists of other places than Florida and Hawaii.

                    I only see one page, the one that starts in 1992...

                    And goes through 2002-2003 season.

                    Nice research on the avocados - I would have liked to see numbers pre-Andrew, all you show is post.

                    The 1989-1990 season is mentioned as the pre-Andrew high. I mentioned that.

                    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @11:40PM (7 children)

                      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @11:40PM (#618556)

                      And what's supposed to be the inefficiency here?

                      1. Select an area protected from wind and providing partial shade.

                      2. The richest organic soil in your home garden should be devoted to your cacao plant

                      3. the cacao tree will take up to four years to begin to bear fruit.

                      4. Cold protection must be provided for young trees by covering the entire tree with a blanket or with the use of a large cardboard box. Even with protection, the leaves of the cacao tree will develop brown leaf edges during the winter and Spring months due to cold, low humidity and winds.

                      Hawaiian production methods currently demand $40/pound on the open market, double market rates for "fine chocolates," and they're not dealing with cold protection, or nearly the frequency of windstorms seen in Florida. It's not that the market loves Hawaiian chocolate so much they're willing to pay 2x for it, it's because at prices any lower the farmers are losing money - which is why they've only got 50 acres in production when there's easily another 250 acres that could be converted to cacao.

                      I think part of our difference in perception is that you appear to be viewing the world as a commodity landscape, every place exchangeable for every other. Even with investment and lots of effort, that's far from true.

                      https://thinkprogress.org/global-warming-is-killing-chocolate-219b584c5a2f/ [thinkprogress.org] http://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/united-states/cote-divoire [mylifeelsewhere.com]

                      Semi-tropical crop growing land in Florida is south of Lake Okeechobee, everything north of I75 is sugar cane, the Avocado and other crops are grown in that little light yellow speck south and west of Miami, east of the green everglades.

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                      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:15AM (6 children)

                        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:15AM (#618582) Journal

                        And what's supposed to be the inefficiency here?

                        1. ... [list follows]

                        You can come up with a list like that for any crop. So let's think about that list. Area protected from wind and providing partial shade? That's not hard. Rich soil. Ok. Four years? That's just time. Cold protection. Guess you'll need to be working some during the winter. Not seeing the humongous problem that makes cacao impossible in south Florida.

                        I think part of our difference in perception is that you appear to be viewing the world as a commodity landscape, every place exchangeable for every other. Even with investment and lots of effort, that's far from true.

                        I can't correct your thinking for you. This isn't a good place for agricultural woo.

                        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:49AM (5 children)

                          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:49AM (#618600)

                          Area protected from wind and providing partial shade?

                          What does that cost to provide per acre, when starting with an open field in South Florida?

                          Protection from cold, on a 10 acre open site? Beyond problematic, unless the wind breaks you built also have dome roofs - are we living science fiction now?

                          Rich soil, not always plentiful, especially in places that didn't used to be forest.

                          Four years, time is money, and exposure to risk - from wind and cold. There's a reason there's no naturally occurring cacao north of 20 degrees latitude.

                          Cacao isn't impossible in South Florida, just expensive - like Hawaii level expensive for different reasons. And... viable Florida cropland [google.com] for cacao totals maybe 200 square miles, if you convert all production of avocado and other semi-tropical crops. Assume we "do it better" here and get 50% better than average yield per acre, and you still haven't got even 1% of today's cacao cultivation replaced.

                          North of Lake Okeechobee is the freeze line, that's where there are no more coconut palms, they might grow for a few lucky years, but then they get a cold winter and die out because of a sub-freezing event. We've covered the part where cacao is more sensitive than that. Might also be worth mentioning that at about 24 degrees of latitude, the only reason Florida is even a cacao growing candidate are the warm ocean currents, again not too many places in the world that have that, either.

                          I can't correct your thinking for you.

                          Another contrast, my thinking is mine, your thinking is yours - neither is correct.

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                          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 06 2018, @07:12AM (4 children)

                            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 06 2018, @07:12AM (#618655) Journal

                            What does that cost to provide per acre, when starting with an open field in South Florida?

                            Why start with an open field then? Lots of fields aren't open, say because they're growing citrus fruit, for example or have been fallow for a while.

                            Protection from cold, on a 10 acre open site? Beyond problematic, unless the wind breaks you built also have dome roofs - are we living science fiction now?

                            Ok. They already do said protection [hgtv.com] for citrus crops, often on far larger sites, most which carry over in a straightforward manner (except for a few that are geared toward frost protection like misting). And the greatest need for cold protection is for the saplings.

                            Rich soil, not always plentiful, especially in places that didn't used to be forest.

                            Have to roll my eyes at this one. All agriculture has this problem to some degree.

                            Four years, time is money, and exposure to risk - from wind and cold. There's a reason there's no naturally occurring cacao north of 20 degrees latitude.

                            And yet, the global warming thing supposedly means those zones will expand.

                            Basically, these are problems that appear over and over in agriculture. They are solved.

                            Here's my take on the matter. The real bottlenecks aren't in the agriculture side, but rather in the infrastructure for harvesting and processing beans. I think that'll get heavily industrialized over the coming decades (as Africa and South America become more developed) resulting in an increase in availability and decline in the price of cocoa products. That's before anyone genetically engineers cocoa to survive cooler temperatures. It's yet another hyped up climate nonissue.

                            • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:34PM (3 children)

                              by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 06 2018, @02:34PM (#618754)

                              say because they're growing citrus

                              Say, citrus (oranges, grapefruit, etc.) is mutually exclusive, climate wise, with cacao - areas where citrus will produce fruit require seasonal cold temperatures that will kill cacao. Florida is not one homogeneous climate.

                              Ok. They already do said protection [hgtv.com] for citrus crops, often on far larger sites

                              Ok. if you're putting HGTV links to talk about commercial agriculture, either you're playing me, or you're really off the rails. And, again - citrus is not cacao - citrus can be protected by water spray to keep the plant at 32F, cacao gets unhappy below 68F, and dead below 50F.

                              They are solved.

                              nope, they are working on GMO that _might_ help the situation, but it is far from solved.

                              I think that'll get heavily industrialized over the coming decades (as Africa and South America become more developed) resulting in an increase in availability and decline in the price of cocoa products.

                              That depends on how much of the Amazon can be converted to cacao production, I think a lot of it is simply too wet right now, they might rape the ecosystem and turn it into fields like they did to Florida, that could keep your Hershey bars affordable, but only up to a world population of 8 or 9B...

                              rich soil

                              Have to roll my eyes at this one. All agriculture has this problem to some degree.

                              but, if you're going to be converting the avocado plantations in South Florida, most of that area is growing on nearly bare limestone rock - that's why Fairchild told the hobbyists to dig a pit and fill it with peat. Price that per acre and tell me what your ROI horizon is, even if you can sell your chocolate at $25/lb.

                              the global warming thing supposedly means those zones will expand.

                              RTFA, any of about a half dozen you can more easily Google up than your HGTV links - global warming is contracting the cacao compatible zones, there's more variables in life than average annual temperature.

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                              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 06 2018, @04:29PM (2 children)

                                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 06 2018, @04:29PM (#618809) Journal
                                Sorry, I won't continue to play your game here particularly since you can't be bothered to read my posts or provide numbers for your assertions while demanding numbers for mine. Funny, how this discussion got derailed into the red herring of talking about cacao farms in south Florida. I then showed growing cacao in south Florida not only was possible, but was happening. Now, it's some tedious argument about the supposed economics of this farming with me being the only person who is providing numbers.

                                Ok. if you're putting HGTV links to talk about commercial agriculture, either you're playing me, or you're really off the rails. And, again - citrus is not cacao - citrus can be protected by water spray to keep the plant at 32F, cacao gets unhappy below 68F, and dead below 50F.

                                And now the ad hominem attacks simply of a link. Attack the information not the source. The story in question discusses several techniques for keeping citrus warm - not just misting. If I google more such stories (as you later demand), they will have that information as well.

                                And if you had read my post rather than knee-jerk reply, you would have noticed that I already discounted misting precisely because it only works around freezing. I anticipated your objection and yet you still accuse me. Misting is not the only trick farmers use to keep citrus crops warm and most of the rest would work for cacao as well.

                                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Saturday January 06 2018, @06:11PM (1 child)

                                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Saturday January 06 2018, @06:11PM (#618836)

                                  Sorry - I still think you:

                                  A) can't grasp the scale: 29,000 square miles of cacao farms today, potentially 25% of that (incase you can't do that math: 7250 square miles) going away due to climate change by 2050 but you're all hot about the 200 square miles of semi-tropical farmland in South Florida that _might_ provide an economically inferior substitute.

                                  B) can't grasp the three variables of: temperature, moisture and exposure, how they vary throughout a year and how that plays into crop survivability and productivity

                                  C) are more interested in feeling like you have demonstrated that your one-size fits all answer fits here too than actually understanding anything about the specific issues

                                  Thanks for the insight into your thought processes, you are not alone in the world - it's nice to have an idea of where people are coming from.

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                                  • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday January 06 2018, @07:23PM

                                    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday January 06 2018, @07:23PM (#618849) Journal

                                    Sorry - I still think you:

                                    I disagree that you are thinking.

                                    A) can't grasp the scale: 29,000 square miles of cacao farms today, potentially 25% of that (incase you can't do that math: 7250 square miles) going away due to climate change by 2050 but you're all hot about the 200 square miles of semi-tropical farmland in South Florida that _might_ provide an economically inferior substitute.

                                    And no evidence for that assertion, let us note. But even if we assume the above claim is true, we still get new habitat created by the same climate change which you never consider. And I never claimed that south Florida was the only place that humanity would be growing cacao plants in.

                                    A key problem here is that we haven't even established that cacao won't continue to be growing in its present areas even under the alleged climate change. Humans are very good at growing things and modifying their environments.

                                    B) can't grasp the three variables of: temperature, moisture and exposure, how they vary throughout a year and how that plays into crop survivability and productivity

                                    Ad hominem attacks again. I already discussed this with you. There are many crops out there with these sorts of needs. Farmers have it figured out. Maybe south Florida won't be viable. But again, it's not the only place out there. I'm not arguing that any further with you.

                                    C) are more interested in feeling like you have demonstrated that your one-size fits all answer fits here too than actually understanding anything about the specific issues

                                    Sounds like you don't understand my argument then. Let us note that this alleged "one-size fits all" works here despite your verbiage to the contrary. When people ignore simple problems with their arguments, it's not because the problem wasn't specifically tailored to their argument.

                                    Thanks for the insight into your thought processes, you are not alone in the world - it's nice to have an idea of where people are coming from.

                                    The person whose thought processes you need insight into is your own. Climate research is one of those rare fields where somehow deep flawed research is routinely accepted (though often with the fig leaf of independent confirmation). In addition to the end of chocolate, we now have someone claiming 150-300 million climate refugees [soylentnews.org] by 2050. The problem with that is that this degree of climate change is not happening now. So what changes between now and three decades later? I think the answer is nothing does to the necessary degree. It's just a ploy to panic us into creating a public funding stream for the usual suspects to feed off of.

                                    Think about this stuff rather than double down on arguments that just weren't working for you.

                • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Friday January 05 2018, @10:08PM

                  by JoeMerchant (3937) on Friday January 05 2018, @10:08PM (#618538)

                  Ah, got one: https://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Florida/Publications/Citrus/Avocado/2001-02/avo0202.pdf [usda.gov]

                  still lacking in broader perspective, but that one shows that the industry mostly recovered, but still hadn't achieved 1991 levels by 2001.

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