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posted by janrinok on Monday January 15 2018, @04:55AM   Printer-friendly
from the do-people-still-sign? dept.

It's been about a month since American Express and Mastercard decided to stop requiring signatures for EMV chip credit cards. Now Visa is joining their ranks, making signatures optional for chipped transactions in North America.

"Visa is committed to delivering secure, fast and convenient payments at the point of sale," said VIsa's Dan Sanford in a statement. "Our focus is on continually evolving the market towards dynamic authentication methods such as EMV chip, as well as investing in emerging capabilities that leverage advanced analytics and biometrics. We believe making the signature requirement optional for EMV chip-enabled merchants is the responsible next step to enhance security and convenience at the point of sale."

Source: https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/12/visa-signatures-optional-credit-cards-emv/


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  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @05:03AM (30 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:03AM (#622432)

    My grocery store hasn't required a signature for purchases under $50 for years now, even back when they used mag-swipes.

    I'd be absolutely shocked to find out that those signatures are used for anything at all in 99,999/100,000 transactions. Maybe once in a blue moon they might pull out a signature to try to convince a card holder that they actually did approve a transaction, but I've never heard of even that actually happening.

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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by frojack on Monday January 15 2018, @05:45AM (25 children)

    by frojack (1554) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:45AM (#622439) Journal

    What ever happened to Chip AND Pin?

    Not only do they not Ask for a signature, they never even ask for a pin.
    So all they know is that the card is valid.

    But is it stolen?

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    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @05:57AM (5 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:57AM (#622445)

      Gas stations have never asked for signatures at the pump... I don't think it's the signature so much as the lack of human interaction that emboldens card thieves and forgers to make gas stations one of the highest fraud venues for credit cards.

      Some retail, like WalMart, actually asks for photo ID to go with the card, and I think that's a good thing.

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      • (Score: 2) by takyon on Monday January 15 2018, @06:27AM (2 children)

        by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Monday January 15 2018, @06:27AM (#622459) Journal

        Hmm, I could have sworn that Walmart did no such thing. I don't remember signatures or photo ID being checked (for chipped credit cards). It has been a while since I went there though.

        Wal-Mart exec: Credit card upgrade a 'joke' [cnn.com]

        Everything about the rollout has seemed haphazard to me.

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        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @01:45PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @01:45PM (#622561)

          I think Wal-Mart is pretty haphazard in their implementation of corporate policies.

          I don't go there often, but I have been since they put in the chip readers, and at that time, at that store, they asked for drivers' license.

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        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:31PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 17 2018, @03:31PM (#623615)

          Big stores check for ID in black areas.

      • (Score: 2) by number11 on Monday January 15 2018, @06:56PM (1 child)

        by number11 (1170) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @06:56PM (#622663)

        Some retail, like WalMart, actually asks for photo ID to go with the card

        Not the WalMart I was in last week. Nor a sig. But my bill might have been below the floor limit.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @09:32PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @09:32PM (#622752)

          I just had the occasion to go shopping in a midwestern Walmart for a close friend using his credit card: an authorized user that no one but the cardholder knew about, over $100, no signature and no photo ID.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @06:00AM (17 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @06:00AM (#622447)

      We've only been doing chip-and-pin for 30 years in Europe, usually on terminals that accept the transaction fast, then dial home later, without the card ever leaving your sight.

      The official answer from the a\banks was that chip-and-pin was too "confusing" for the Americans (really). Which is either calling them dumb, or worrying that having to remember 25 pins might be a hindrance to getting more debt than you really should...

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @10:37AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @10:37AM (#622516)

        We've only been doing chip-and-pin for 30 years in Europe,

        Come to Germany. Signatures requires. Yes, Germany still part of Europe.

      • (Score: 2) by TheRaven on Monday January 15 2018, @11:10AM (3 children)

        by TheRaven (270) on Monday January 15 2018, @11:10AM (#622528) Journal
        I suspect by 'Europe' you mean 'France'. A French bank owned some key patents on the chip-and-pin system and most countries waited until they'd expired before rolling out compatible systems.
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        • (Score: 4, Funny) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Monday January 15 2018, @12:02PM

          by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Monday January 15 2018, @12:02PM (#622534) Journal

          Not quite 30 years, but we've had fish and cushion payments here in the UK for at least a decade, and it doesn't seem to have brought about the end times.[1]

          [1] We have various other things we can blame our current mess on.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Wootery on Monday January 15 2018, @12:41PM

          by Wootery (2341) on Monday January 15 2018, @12:41PM (#622544)

          most countries waited until they'd expired before rolling out compatible systems

          This seems to happen constantly with patents. Is this a market failure? Are the patent-holders just setting their price-point too high, or is it instead the hassle and uncertainty that stop adoption?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @03:24PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @03:24PM (#622581)

          I'm in Denmark, and while the chip is new-ish, we've been doing magstripe and pin ever since the first credit card was introduced more than 30 years ago.

          But Germany... I'm not surprised, it's actually rare to be able to pay with credit card in Germany, even when ordering online.

      • (Score: 4, Informative) by aclarke on Monday January 15 2018, @01:36PM (2 children)

        by aclarke (2049) on Monday January 15 2018, @01:36PM (#622557) Homepage

        Not "the Americas". We've used chip and PIN in Canada for a long time. I can't remember the last time I was asked to sign a credit card purchase. Going to the US and using my credit card makes me feel like I'm going a couple decades back in time.

        The statements attached to this article from the credit card confuse me for this reason. Maybe they're not longer requiring signatures for chip purchases, but then again in Canada it's always chip+PIN. Plus of course contactless for amounts $100 which require neither a PIN nor a signature.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by aclarke on Monday January 15 2018, @01:39PM (1 child)

          by aclarke (2049) on Monday January 15 2018, @01:39PM (#622560) Homepage

          Oops, I read "too confusing for the Americans" as "too confusing for the Americas". I also think that Americans are very suspicious of and resistant to any sort of change, which leaves them stuck with antiquated ideas like magnetic stripe credit cards, health insurance for basic needs, dollar bills, etc.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @12:17AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @12:17AM (#622871)

            I'm guessing your thought process went like this:

            1. Read the phrase "Too confusing for Americans"
            2. Hey Canada is in America!!
            3. Eh
            4. Must take jab at poster for not properly referring to people in the "USA" as "USians" or "the US population".
            5. Hit Submit
            6. Wait a sec, I'm Canadian? Did I just logically imply I'm an American?
            7. Holy shit! I wear clothing embossed with giant maple leafs when I travel overseas, and damned anyone that refers to me as "American" instead of Canadian.
            8. To save face I must mentally redefine "America" as "A subset of the Americas, and not in and of itself all of North and South America"
            9. Submit correction post attributed to confusion between "America" and "The Americas"

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:01PM (8 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @05:01PM (#622614) Journal

        1. Having multiple credit cards and using them frequently doesn't mean that you actually have any debt. Just keep all those cards paid down to zero. Never use the card unless you were prepared to write a check for it as soon as you get home and pay off the card online. Get all of the huge rewards of using CC's but never get into debt. If you are going to purchase something expensive, then save up for it, like sensible people do. Then buy it on a CC and pay off the CC that same day.

        2. Don't flinch at calling Americans dumb. Look who we have as president. I'm sure that remembering more than one pin is simply too confusing for most non geeks watching reality tv trailer park shows. (true, even if inciteful or informative) Please be careful about inviting the orange jackass to visit europe.

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        • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @05:08PM (3 children)

          by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:08PM (#622619)

          I'm not sure your 1. is compatible with your 2., which is kind of the point for credit card companies. :)

          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:37PM (2 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @05:37PM (#622632) Journal

            I have done the 1 for years. But I didn't vote for the 2. So maybe they are mutually exclusive.

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            • (Score: 2) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @05:54PM (1 child)

              by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:54PM (#622644)

              There's a billions-of-dollar industry based on 2.
              We the members of the 1. club are a minority.

              • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @09:47PM

                by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @09:47PM (#622761) Journal

                You must be disciplined to treat a CC as if it were a debit card. Sadly, that probably is a minority.

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        • (Score: 2) by frojack on Monday January 15 2018, @05:40PM (3 children)

          by frojack (1554) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:40PM (#622634) Journal

          3. Clown who has never heard of a debit card presumes to lecture others on how to run their country.

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          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @05:44PM (2 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @05:44PM (#622638) Journal

            Debit cards don't pay you for using them. Airline points. Disney dollars. Amazon dollars. Cruise ship dollars.

            But be sure you use a CC as if it were a debit card.

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            • (Score: 2) by etherscythe on Monday January 15 2018, @08:29PM (1 child)

              by etherscythe (937) on Monday January 15 2018, @08:29PM (#622706) Journal

              They also don't have the consumer protections that a credit card does. Woe to thee whose debit card number is stolen and on which big charges are piled up.

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              • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Monday January 15 2018, @09:45PM

                by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @09:45PM (#622760) Journal

                I would also point out that Credit Cards have a dispute process for dealing with bad merchants or bad products. We've never had to use this, but it's nice to know it is there. The reason for this is that the CC companies DON'T WANT bad merchants in their payment network. Sometimes CCs also offer other protections.

                I once used Debit Cards what seems like a lifetime ago when I was young and didn't know better. But CCs are the way to go -- as long as you NEVER borrow money with them. If you don't have the discipline to do this, then stick with debit cards. That's probably why they exist.

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    • (Score: 2) by MichaelDavidCrawford on Monday January 15 2018, @04:16PM

      by MichaelDavidCrawford (2339) Subscriber Badge <mdcrawford@gmail.com> on Monday January 15 2018, @04:16PM (#622595) Homepage Journal

      I use a credit union in Washington state

      Some the merchant doesn't have a chip reader. For those I can still swipe

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  • (Score: 2) by bart9h on Monday January 15 2018, @05:43PM (3 children)

    by bart9h (767) on Monday January 15 2018, @05:43PM (#622637)

    Here in the Third World I'm using credit (and debit) cards with chips, PIN required, for decades.
    Even my first credit card was like that, and that was some 20 years ago.

    • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Monday January 15 2018, @07:26PM (2 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Monday January 15 2018, @07:26PM (#622674)

      US paper money is also some of the easiest in the world to counterfeit... I'm wondering if any vested interests are actively keeping it that way...

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      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @08:51PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @08:51PM (#622724)

        Just all the signs that the US hasn't been a functioning democracy or free market capitalism in 40 years.

      • (Score: 2) by hendrikboom on Monday January 15 2018, @10:11PM

        by hendrikboom (1125) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @10:11PM (#622779) Homepage Journal

        I've heard that there are billions of dollars in US paper currency around the world, much of it representing the secret life savings of relatively poor people in countries with autocratic governments and currency restrictions. They can spend their money on black markets, but changing an entire life's savings from an old currency to a new one is dangerous. Too easy to get caught by authorities.

        This makes it difficult to invalidate old forms of currency without causing harm.