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posted by Fnord666 on Monday January 15 2018, @03:47PM   Printer-friendly
from the my-house-my-rules dept.

Submitted via IRC for AndyTheAbsurd

The Satanic Temple, an activist group based in Salem, Massachusetts, is threatening to sue Twitter for religious discrimination after one of its co-founders had his Twitter account permanently suspended.

Lucien Greaves, the Satanic Temple's co-founder and spokesman, said his Twitter account was permanently suspended without any notice after he asked his followers to report a tweet that called for the Satanic Temple to be burned down.

"We're talking to lawyers today," Greaves said Friday about whether he planned to take legal action.

Source: http://www.newsweek.com/satanic-temple-threatens-sue-twitter-over-religious-discrimination-780148


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by fyngyrz on Monday January 15 2018, @07:30PM (31 children)

    by fyngyrz (6567) on Monday January 15 2018, @07:30PM (#622676) Journal

    and will act (vote) out of pure spite

    Well, but some voted for Trump out of pure stupidity (Faux news watchers and Breitbart denizens for example), and others out of ignorance (what, me pay attention? I vote Republican because [stale reason(s)]), and others because they are selfish bastards (oh goody, I was born on the right side of a line, and/or I'm healthy, and/or I'm wealthy.) And so on. Then there's the (true) fact that politics in general has become so toxic, so anti-citizen, so infused with bullshit and corporate/rich fluffing, that some people were legitimately so angry they couldn't think straight enough to comprehend the consequences of throwing a gold-plated idiot like Trump into the mix for four years.

    There's so much blame to go around in the case of Trump's election that it's just not reasonable to lay it at the feet of pure spite.

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  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 15 2018, @09:14PM (30 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 15 2018, @09:14PM (#622736) Journal

    Yes, yes, yes, there WERE ignorant voters, stupidity, and habitual party voters, and selfish bastards - ON BOTH SIDES!! And, few of those who are left actually "supported" Trump. Many voted for the lesser of two evils. And, yes, Trump remains the lesser of the two evils that were offered to us.

    You're wanting to fix blame? Why not blame your own party, for having stabbed Bernie in the back? Wasserman-Schultz and Clinton bear most of the blame, in this last election.

    How about, you just man up, and accept that Trump's election is your own party's failure? Or, stated differently, stop blaming Trump for your party's failure to offer a viable candidate. Remember how many Democrats swarmed to the polls to get Obama elected? Where were all those voters when Hillary ran? A very large percentage of them stayed home, because they couldn't be bothered to vote for an obvious lying crook. YOUR PARTY decided to not vote for Hillary, so the OTHER PARTY won the election.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by bob_super on Monday January 15 2018, @09:28PM (7 children)

      by bob_super (1357) on Monday January 15 2018, @09:28PM (#622748)

      > Trump remains the lesser of the two evils that were offered to us.

      *Citation needed*

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by edIII on Monday January 15 2018, @10:02PM (5 children)

        by edIII (791) on Monday January 15 2018, @10:02PM (#622769)

        Not really neede, but I cite Obama. Seriously. Specifically the administration and agenda.

        We would've got four years (maybe eight), of the same toxic anti-consumer, anti-American, anti-privacy bullshit we had under Obama. Civil rights would've continued to erode, the globalist agenda would've been furthered, the TPP would've already been signed by that bitch, the unPatriot Act extended automatically by reflex, some more countries declared war on, etc. Nothing about that bitch was good at all, and it all SCREAMED Establishment's Number One Bitch. There would've been some good PC stuff in there too to let the left stupidly gloat, but at the same time a fascist movement to "protect" speech would've got the president it really wanted.

        That being said, I voted for that toxic hell-bound bitch precisely because I felt it was the lesser of two evils compared a truly demented piece of shit being given power. At the last minute I will still deciding on Fire & Brimstone versus Crushing Globalist Agenda. At that very last second I realized I couldn't give somebody that hostile, narcissistic, and child like great power. We needed to take our chances with the bitch.

        Runaway is actually correct in this case. I'm not a Democrat, but became one to support Bernie. I do believe that bulk of the fault for the Democrat's failure is purely themselves, and not the Electoral College, and not some "deplorables". Some Trump voters are truly deplorable, but then a good chunk of them simply couldn't stomach Hillary. It would've been totally different with Bernie, and they would've railed against the socialism perhaps, but not such a visceral reaction against evil like Hillary. For those that didn't believe Trump was unhinged, well it was a pretty easy decision to vote for him I think as long as you were even a little right of center.

        Hillary's stink can never be understated as the reason for the Democrat's failure.

        --
        Technically, lunchtime is at any moment. It's just a wave function.
        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday January 15 2018, @10:19PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Monday January 15 2018, @10:19PM (#622792) Journal

          ^ This, this, all of this. I wound up following your thought process almost exactly, and have since been in grieving for a nation that was fated to die no matter who won.

          We can only hope that enough people are jarred out of their apathetic slumber by 2020, if not 2018, to right the ship of state before it takes on too much water. I'm not holding my breath, but we're not dead yet.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:41AM (1 child)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:41AM (#622920)

          I have to agree completely.

          I'd also like to add about the Electoral College that the angry Hillary voters keep bringing up: that's the system we have in this country, like it or not. And this isn't the first time the EC has burned the Dems: the exact same thing happened in 2000 with Al Gore. So what did the Democratic Party do about this? Did they attempt to pass a Constitutional Amendment to change the system when they had power? Hell no. So shut the fuck up about the EC! If you're really mad about the EC, then fix it, don't whine about it. But I never see the Dems make any moves to reform it, or to fix the elections in any way (such as getting away from First Past The Post).

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @03:51AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @03:51AM (#622980)

          That sounds a lot like what I went through. It was the longest I can remember standing in a voting booth in my life.

          There was one candidate who we were all told would win, and I knew the consequences of her losing would have been unbearable. Then she lost.

          We're in for a very interesting year.

        • (Score: 1) by fustakrakich on Tuesday January 16 2018, @11:59PM

          by fustakrakich (6150) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @11:59PM (#623360) Journal

          Hillary's stink can never be understated as the reason for the Democrat's failure.

          Over/Under Place yer bets! House rules...

          --
          La politica e i criminali sono la stessa cosa..
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @11:53PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @11:53PM (#623359)

        In America the good guy always wins! (Electoral) Majority rules, man. Everybody knew them going in. And the voters chose the nominees. Naturally they will choose the "lesser evil". Who wouldn't?

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Monday January 15 2018, @10:22PM (18 children)

      by fyngyrz (6567) on Monday January 15 2018, @10:22PM (#622797) Journal

      And, yes, Trump remains the lesser of the two evils that were offered to us.

      Nonsense. Trump is an idiot, an incompetent, a blatant and habitual liar, an illiterate, an historical ignoramus, a racist, a scofflaw, has been consistently dishonest and mal-principled in his business dealings, and he has never had (or could even conceive of) the best interests of the citizens as citizens at heart. Further flaws - such as his inability to absorb written material and his constant shirking of the work at hand - have come to light since his election... as if the foregoing wasn't quite sufficient to disqualify him for the post.

      This has been obvious from the early days of his campaign, having gotten only more so as election day approached; even casual fact-checking revealed him to be by far the poorer choice. The fact that he's done such an incredibly poor job once elected is about at the level of the observation that the sky is blue. Well, of course. The list of things he has screwed up in just his first year in office is quite long. I'll spare you – unless you insist.

      Why not blame your own party, for having stabbed Bernie in the back?

      Oh, I absolutely blame the Democrats. Not just the Democratic party, but the media as well. They (the parties, both of them) are massively corrupt. Not my party, though.

      Or, stated differently, stop blaming Trump for your party's failure to offer a viable candidate.

      The Democrats (not my party) offered a viable candidate. A much more viable candidate than Trump. Not the best candidate they had (that would be Sanders) and not the one I would have preferred (that would also have been Sanders) and not anything other than a broadly traditional politician (again, that would have been Sanders), and not the one I voted for in the primary (hey, Sanders, yet again!) but still - viable. She even won the majority of the votes. By millions of votes. Which brings me to also throwing fault at the electoral college, which has become a travesty of its original intent and design through corrupt legislation. But that was the game, and the Republicans won it. Unfortunately, that meant the USA got the shaft.

      How about, you just man up, and accept that Trump's election is your own party's failure?

      Just FYI, again, with great emphasis, the Democrats are in no way "my party." Clinton was simply the far better of two bad choices. This was patently obvious as Trump spoke repeated bits of nonsense and vicious tripe during his campaign. The day the Republicans (or anyone else, for that matter) field a candidate that I feel (a) can actually win and (b) offers a superior (even if not objectively good) set of campaign planks and assessed abilities, that candidate will have my vote.

      YOUR PARTY decided to not vote for Hillary, so the OTHER PARTY won the election.

      Again, not my party. Either of them. Further:

      Are you under the impression that I think any more highly of those who harmed the country by not voting at all, than I do of those who harmed the country by voting for Trump? I most certainly do not. However, that doesn't change the fact that voting for Trump was extremely unwise. Some of the reasons why someone might have been so unwise are what provided the fodder for my previous remarks. It was no less wise to not go to the polls at all, but that wasn't the point of the remark I was replying to.

      • (Score: -1, Redundant) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @11:36PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 15 2018, @11:36PM (#622842)

        I can spend half an hour calling you names too, but that doesn't make you a billionaire real estate mogul / tv celebrity / president. You'll still be a loser. So maybe try looking in the mirror and get off your high horse.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:43AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:43AM (#622922)

          Nice non-response.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:45AM (6 children)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @01:45AM (#622926)

        > And, yes, Trump remains the lesser of the two evils that were offered to us.
        Nonsense. Trump is an idiot, an incompetent, a blatant and habitual liar, an illiterate, an historical ignoramus, a racist, a scofflaw.....

        That may all be true, but it still doesn't prove that Trump is worse. There was every indication that Hillary wanted to start a war with Russia in Syria. I was a Bernie fan, but I can still admit that Hillary was a horrible pick. Whether she was actually worse, I don't think we'll ever know for sure (unless you can invent a device to look at parallel universes). I will give Trump credit for the fact that we aren't yet in a new war. That may or may not have been the case with Hillary.

        • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday January 16 2018, @03:02AM (3 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @03:02AM (#622964) Journal

          There was every indication that Hillary wanted to start a war with Russia in Syria.

          Yes, except... no, there wasn't. It was hysteria, the vast majority of the loudest nonsense coming directly from extremely dubious sources. What that was actually about was no more than the US declaring a no-fly zone in Syria. At the very most, that would have resulted in tensions in (okay, and over) Syria - not "a war with Russia." It's hyperbolic nonsense. Just like a great deal of the other poo-flingery that was held up as "omg" during the campaign.

          The fact is, Russia doesn't want a war with us any more than we want a war with them. Neither country is friendly or respectful of the other, and yeah, it's unpleasant as hell. But neither country wants a major war - which it would most definitely be - and both will go to great lengths to avoid it. That's been amply demonstrated through all the years of the cold war. When tensions get high, both countries back off and/or deflect. We know these people; and they know us.

          Clinton had serious - even terrible - warts. But "wanting to start a war with Russia" definitely wasn't one of them. Her problems were in fairly usual areas for a Democrat: fluffing the rich and powerful; constitutional erosion; crushing personal and consensual choice; the drug war; OMG "terrorists"; "think of the children"; that sort of thing. Basically, more of the same. This, against throwing a a wrench consisting of a visibly incompetent and socially retarded idiot into the mix. From my POV, it wasn't even a choice, once Sanders was eliminated.

          The fact that some voters still can't recognize the magnitude of the error they made is a profound demonstration of confirmation bias. Trump's obvious proclivity - as easily determined from his own actions and statements - to do exactly the wrong thing should have been enough prior to entering the voting booth assuming only that the voter tried to take a serious look. Okay, for some, they weren't. Wow, but okay. For others, they didn't even look. Or where they looked was so toxic and misleading - Fox News, Breitbart - they were simply unable to get out of the mental morass imposed by those media outlets. That's sort of understandable. Sort of. These were the people running around thinking there's a war on Christmas, and that Obama wasn't a US citizen, and that his wearing a tan suit - a tan suit FFS - was "not presidential." The intractably deluded.

          But now we're here. Trump's year-long list of errors, lies, and general incompetence still hasn't penetrated through many of these voter's heads; at that point, they have to be written off. They can't be reached within the context of any reasonable expenditure of effort. There's no point in extended arguments, there's no point in bumper stickers, posters, advertisements. We even know the magnitude of the problem: It's around 35%; Trump's amazingly low popularity tells the tale with very little uncertainty. Doesn't bother me; I've passed through the "omg" stage and am well into the "yes, apparently there are a lot of politically incompetent voters out there, oh well" stage. But we - I - know from past experience that when things go seriously off kilter, as they have with this president, the voters have always stepped up and swung the pendulum back. They did it with Bush; they'll do it again with Trump.

          So he's a cooked goose, politically speaking. He'll either be firmly and incontrovertibly out at the end of four years, or congress will get tired of having the country led by a buffoon who specializes in revealing them as buffoons, and they'll impeach him or 25th amendment him before his term is up.

          Me, I'm just waiting for the inevitable backlash. It's going to be a popcorn-heavy time.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:14AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:14AM (#622984)

            Is there any hope the DNC will start appealing to real progressive values, or will they be running Oprah in 3 years? (Doesn't need to be Oprah specifically; pick any woman celebrity who's a household name.)

            Running Oprah is a good way to irrevocably shatter the country. Real progressive values, as opposed to fake SJW horseshit, is the only thing that can save us from this simultaneous assault from two camps of right-wing authoritarians (Murkins and SJWs). The lesson the DNC needs to learn from 2016 is that the people want a progressive like Sanders, not whichever lizard person whose turn it is.

            I'm expecting to see firsthand what an irrevocable shattering looks like, though I eternally hold out hope that past results don't guarantee future.

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:43PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:43PM (#623177)

              If Oprah becomes president, she'll appoint Dr. Oz as surgeon general, and he'll be pushing all kinds of quackery bullshit. Public health in the US will be a disaster; even Trump is better.

              The Democratic Party really epitomizes the wise saying from Lord Dark Helmet: "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:41PM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:41PM (#623174)

            What that was actually about was no more than the US declaring a no-fly zone in Syria.

            How exactly would that *not* have started a war with Russia when the US shot down a Russian jet that inevitably disregarded the no-fly zone? And what gives the US authority to declare a no-fly zone in Syria in the first place, especially when the Russian military is already operating there? What makes you think the Russians would agree to that?

            Clinton had serious - even terrible - warts. But "wanting to start a war with Russia" definitely wasn't one of them.

            I disagree. Even W. Bush wasn't that bad: at least he had the intelligence to invade countries that didn't have Russia already operating there. You may think Russia doesn't want a war, but that doesn't mean they're just going to knuckle under any time the US decides to unilaterally impose its will.

            Her problems were in fairly usual areas for a Democrat: fluffing the rich and powerful; constitutional erosion; crushing personal and consensual choice; the drug war; OMG "terrorists"; "think of the children"; that sort of thing.

            But now we're here. Trump's year-long list of errors, lies, and general incompetence still hasn't penetrated through many of these voter's heads

            And compared to Hillary (whose problems you yourself list here), exactly how has Trump done such a terrible job? Honestly, I'm aghast that I'm defending Trump here, but as lousy as he's been, I really don't see how the outcome is any worse than Hillary, and in fact it's probably been better. We would absolutely have gotten involved in some type of military conflict with Russia in Syria, and if you can't see that, I feel sorry for you. The biggest problems I've seen with Trump's actions this first year are 1) nominating (successfully) a very conservative SCOTUS justice, who we'll now be stuck with for several decades, and 2) picking Jeff Sessions for AG, who's now attempting to bring back federal MJ enforcement, though not much has actually happened there yet. Sometimes I wonder if Trump isn't just a puppet for the PTB, because we're really not seeing the complete disaster that seems like should have happened with his incompetence, and he seems to have actually picked a few good subordinates (Mattis and Tillerson in particular), and his antics are just a diversion.

            But we - I - know from past experience that when things go seriously off kilter, as they have with this president, the voters have always stepped up and swung the pendulum back. They did it with Bush; they'll do it again with Trump.

            Now you've actually proven that you don't know what you're talking about. The voters didn't "step up" with Bush (II), they re-elected him for another term after he started two, not one, but *two* wars in the mideast. The same thing is going to happen in 2020: the Dems are going to pick another lousy candidate (either Hillary again for a 3rd time, or maybe that idiot Oprah who peddles snake oil and quackery on her show), and they're going to lose, and we'll have 4 more years of Trump. And it's not just the voters that are incompetent, it's the opposition party, for picking such terrible choices. And Kerry wasn't even that bad, but these days the Dems are intent on picking people that are far, far worse, so the Reps can get away with some really awful candidates.

        • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday January 17 2018, @09:47PM (1 child)

          by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @09:47PM (#623829)

          That may all be true, but it still doesn't prove that Trump is worse. There was every indication that Hillary wanted to start a war with Russia in Syria.

          My general take on both of the major party candidates when it comes to foreign policy:
          - Donald Trump could very easily start World War III by accident. His complete lack of experience with diplomacy, government, and military matters, combined with a hot temper and impulsiveness, could get us all into real trouble. For instance, a Twitter feud with a foreign leader could easily escalate.
          - Hillary Clinton could very easily start World War III on purpose. Her extensive experience with diplomacy, government, and military matters, combined with close friendships with Cold War war criminals like Henry Kissinger, could get us all into real trouble. This scenario has her listening to people who think like Buck Turgidson in Dr Strangelove.

          I'm fairly certain Clinton's scenario would be less bad, just because she'd be more prepared and thus more likely for the US to win it, but I didn't see a path to things not getting very ugly.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday January 17 2018, @10:24PM

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday January 17 2018, @10:24PM (#623861)

            I have to disagree. As another poster said, it's better to have incompetent evil rather than competent evil. With Trump, at least his hot temper and impulsiveness are IMO less likely to turn into anything, because they aren't really policy, and he has other people in the chain of command. And the foreign leader does too. With Hillary, she knows how to work the system and the people around her to achieve her goals, and that's really scary.

            So far, it looks like Trumpism is actually working: the two Koreas are now planning to attend the Olympics in a unified fashion, the first time ever. Maybe by being such an incompetent stooge, the two Koreas decided they needed to just ignore the US and work things out between themselves.

      • (Score: 2, Interesting) by crafoo on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:43AM (7 children)

        by crafoo (6639) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @04:43AM (#622990)

        I'm curious why you think voting for Trump harmed the US, was unwise, and what policies and/or changes he's acted on that have been so damaging to our country?

        And calling Hillary a viable candidate, come on man. That's so divorced from reality it does really bring into question your judgement.

        I'm not seeing any real harm here so far. Marginal improvements in some areas, a slightly improved economy although that may be unrelated. If we get illegal immigration under control and get a diminished FBI and CIA in the bargain, that's a pretty good term of office if you ask me.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:50AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:50AM (#623036)

          You might want to watch something else in addition to (or preferably instead of) Fox news.

        • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday January 16 2018, @08:23AM (5 children)

          by fyngyrz (6567) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @08:23AM (#623040) Journal

          I'm curious why you think voting for Trump harmed the US, was unwise, and what policies and/or changes he's acted on that have been so damaging to our country?

          Well, let it never be said I let your curiosity bump go unscratched in this matter.

          Trump has permitted coal pollution in streams via deregulation. He has likewise encouraged more pollution from motor vehicles. He has said some very stupid and destabilizing things about nuclear weapons, to those with nuclear weapons. He has attacked the ACA and managed to cause some significant damage to it by undercutting the financial structure that made it work. He has engaged in wholly uncalled for fear mongering about immigrants, "human trafficking", and sanctuary cities. He has acted to endanger rural train and air service. He has interfered with already-issued visas. He has blatantly lied about all manner of things, including wiretapping, how many people attended his inauguration, and the national debt, not to mention the daily deluge of idiot tweets, which are often seasoned with lies and errors, when you can get past the sixth grade use of English. He has wasted huge amonts of money traveling in the process of pretending his golf resort is the "southern white house." He continues to push for his ridiculous and disastrously expensive "wall." he ignores the national security apparatus briefings and gets his news from right wing conspiracy sites. He has pushed development of the environmentally dangerous pipelines back into motion... not using American steel, either. He has interfered with women's and children's healthcare. He has proposed wasting even more money on our oversized military. He promised increases in infrastructure spending, but his budget cuts infrastructure spending. He's supported white nationalists, abused the handicapped personally, called small countries "shitholes", made enemies out of the Australian prime minister and pretty much the entire government of England, pushed the drug war further downhill through his attorney general, alienated both the FBI and the CIA, appointed ridiculous and incompetent people to important government posts, been caught outright in pussygrabgate while at the same time shaming his wife, not to mention marching into the white house and leaving her behind at the car. Interviews with the man result in word salads that serve as a very clear window into a very bewildered mind; and that window is open to the world - we're a laughingstock.

          He is visibly and risibly narcissistic, misogynist, xenophobic, sexist, rude, compulsive, racist, poorly spoken, selfish, historically ignorant, scientifically illiterate, and frankly, not too bright. He's a national embarrassment, is what he is.

          And calling Hillary a viable candidate, come on man. That's so divorced from reality it does really bring into question your judgement

          Is it? Sure is peculiar how the majority of votes was for her, and it took a baseless news flash about a nothing-to-it FBI investigation to even push her down to a ~3 million vote margin. Divorced from reality, really? Pot, meet kettle. Thank the EC for bringing home the orange bacon. It wasn't the voters.

          I'm not seeing any real harm here so far.

          Yes, I understand that you are not. It's very interesting. You're entitled to your opinions, of course. It's just unfortunate that the facts on the ground don't support them.

          If we get illegal immigration under control and get a diminished FBI and CIA in the bargain, that's a pretty good term of office if you ask me.

          Let me tell you exactly what I think will happen. Trump's term will end one way or another, very likely early, and just as he and the Republicans have undone what was done before them, the next bunch in there will turn those things right back around. The FBI and the CIA will not be diminished; they'll grow anew, and much crowing will be done about how Trump's errors are being corrected as fast as possible. The illegal immigrants who pick your vegetables and mow your lawns and serve your food will still be doing that, and US citizens still won't actually want the jobs they are doing.

          This is not a permanent, or even semi-permanent, change in the nation's status (barring an unfortunate twitch of Kim's nervous trigger finger, or Trump's), it's just an interval, one much more toxic than the Bush II era - and you know what happened after Bush II, right? We elected a very intelligent black man (a politician very much like Clinton, only less obviously sneaky) and the moron contingent went right out of their tiny little minds. We had eight years of that, and then... this. Well, again, when this one is over, you can count on a pretty profound swing back the other way. Because if you want to think of this as an experiment in throwing monkey wrenches, you can consider that it has resulted in great problems and large steps backwards; that won't be allowed to stand. IMHO.

          My opinion, like yours, is just that. We will have to wait and see what happens. Feel free to come back and reference this if I'm wrong. I'll be right there to take my beating if indeed the country decides to swim further into this kind of thing. I'm feeling pretty secure that isn't going to happen. But we'll see.

          • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @05:08PM (2 children)

            by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @05:08PM (#623184)

            Here I go again, defending Trump. I really must be living in an alternate universe.

            Trump has permitted coal pollution in streams via deregulation.

            Has this actually amounted to anything? Coal isn't economically viable in this country any more; deregulation isn't going to bring back the glory days. Even China is cutting coal usage as they move to cleaner sources of power. Trump's actions may cause some short-term backslide, but coal's days are numbered, and nothing Trump can do can change that.

            He has likewise encouraged more pollution from motor vehicles.

            How so? Has it actually resulted in policy changes and real problems? Cars are getting cleaner all the time, and the fleet is getting cleaner as older cars are removed from usage (wrecks, wearing out, etc.) and are replaced with newer, cleaner ones. I haven't heard of any pollution standards being rolled back.

            He has said some very stupid and destabilizing things about nuclear weapons, to those with nuclear weapons.

            How's that worse than shooting down Russian military aircraft? The policies of the previous administrations haven't worked in NK, what makes you think continuing them will?

            He has attacked the ACA and managed to cause some significant damage to it by undercutting the financial structure that made it work.

            This is worrisome but we haven't seen any effects just yet. And to be fair, it was the whole GOP that's wanted to do this, for quite some time now.

            He has engaged in wholly uncalled for fear mongering about immigrants, "human trafficking", and sanctuary cities.

            Calling for stuff doesn't result in actual policy. The DACA thing is actual policy action. Really, I haven't seen a lot of change here, except from the DACA policy change.

            He has acted to endanger rural train and air service.

            Citation needed. I haven't heard anything about this. Amtrak has been a disaster for a long time.

            He has interfered with already-issued visas.

            That was bad, but it didn't affect that many people and was quickly fixed.

            He has blatantly lied about all manner of things, including wiretapping, how many people attended his inauguration, and the national debt, not to mention the daily deluge of idiot tweets, which are often seasoned with lies and errors, when you can get past the sixth grade use of English.

            So what? His lies don't automatically translate to policy changes. Him lying about the inauguration crowd doesn't result in policy changes, it's just fodder for the press and to anger people.

            He has wasted huge amonts of money traveling in the process of pretending his golf resort is the "southern white house."

            Obama wasted huge amounts of money traveling too, and I'm pretty sure Bush did as well. Nothing new here.

            He continues to push for his ridiculous and disastrously expensive "wall."

            I still don't see a wall.

            he ignores the national security apparatus briefings and gets his news from right wing conspiracy sites.

            And what exactly have been the negative effects of this?

            He has pushed development of the environmentally dangerous pipelines back into motion... not using American steel, either.

            Those pipelines were being built under Obama too. No change here.

            He has interfered with women's and children's healthcare.

            How so exactly? Remember, he's not a dictator. Healthcare has been terrible here for poorer people for ages. Trump hasn't improved it for sure, but I fail to see how he's made it much worse, esp. if you look only at him and not the Republicans in Congress.

            He has proposed wasting even more money on our oversized military.

            Proposing things does not automatically result in policy or budget changes.

            He promised increases in infrastructure spending, but his budget cuts infrastructure spending.

            Going back on campaign promises is not unique to Trump. Obama promised the most transparent administration in history, and look how that went.

            He's supported white nationalists, abused the handicapped personally, called small countries "shitholes", made enemies out of the Australian prime minister and pretty much the entire government of England

            Calling people names doesn't equate to policy changes.

            pushed the drug war further downhill through his attorney general

            So far, I haven't seen any changes here, though it may be too soon to tell. But Sessions has had a year now, and while Sessions certainly doesn't like it, the loosening of MJ laws doesn't seem to have reversed yet.

            alienated both the FBI and the CIA,

            What's the problem with the latter? The organization that organizes coups in 3rd-world countries? If anything, they should be cut back. How has any of this resulted in negative effects for the American people?

            appointed ridiculous and incompetent people to important government posts

            Nothing new here. Remember "Brownie"?

            been caught outright in pussygrabgate while at the same time shaming his wife

            Again, how does this affect the American people? There's no policy problems here.

            Interviews with the man result in word salads that serve as a very clear window into a very bewildered mind; and that window is open to the world - we're a laughingstock.

            Again, how is this causing problems in everyday life for the American people?

            In short, how is life much worse now for the average American than it was under Obama 1, 2, or 4 years ago? You haven't proven your point here. All you've proven is that Trump is a buffoon and an embarrassment, but that doesn't prove anything about any alleged harm that his administration has caused.

            I'm not seeing any real harm here so far.
            Yes, I understand that you are not. It's very interesting. You're entitled to your opinions, of course. It's just unfortunate that the facts on the ground don't support them.

            You're entitled to your opinions as well, but if you're going to make claims of harm, you need to actually provide evidence to back up your claims. You haven't done this. All you've done is show "Trump is an idiot and makes us look bad!". Sorry, that's not enough to prove actual harm. We've had a year now with this buffoon, and so far everything seems about the same as last year, except the weather is worse (which we can't blame on him in this short timeframe).

            it's just an interval, one much more toxic than the Bush II era - and you know what happened after Bush II, right? We elected a very intelligent black man

            That's not the way I remember it. The way I remember it, we re-elected Bush II and got stuck with 4 more years of him. From this and other posts from you, you seem to have somehow erased those 4 years from your memory. And after his 8 years were up, *then* we elected a black man who was an excellent speaker, and gave us basically more of the same, though he did give us a healthcare law that was the product of a right-wing thinktank.

            • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday January 16 2018, @08:11PM (1 child)

              by fyngyrz (6567) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @08:11PM (#623270) Journal

              Sigh. Really? I have to do your googling for you?

              Why coal pollution in streams is a problem regardless of the trend of coal usage [vox.com]

              I haven't heard of any pollution standards being rolled back.

              Then you're simply not paying attention. [nationalgeographic.com]

              This [ACA attacks] is worrisome but we haven't seen any effects just yet.

              Yes, we most certainly have. The removal of the subsidies has caused insurance rates to rise, and plans to reduce coverage, and plans to exit regions. Yes, the current crop of Republicans are complicit, no argument there. Our citizens will die as a direct result of this.

              Calling for [immigration attack] stuff doesn't result in actual policy.

              He hasn't just "called for stuff", he's issued executive orders that have caused direct and rather immediate harm, and have now made it through SCOTUS. Quite aside from that, yes, it does cause harm. There's a reason we say here on the net "Don't feed the trolls", it's because doing so raises the noise level and deters actual sane dialog, and in so doing, makes the environment uncomfortable for the sane and serious. That's what Trump's bloviating amounts to, only writ on the national (and international) political stage. It's bad, in and of itself, and again, makes this country look like it encourages a jingoist, xenophobic society, when really, that's not been the case, and should never be the case.

              [air and rail attacks] Citation needed. I haven't heard anything about this. Amtrak has been a disaster for a long time.

              Here's the thing that many – including you – don't seem to understand. Rural air and Amtrack are not like a business. They are like the highways, only way better / faster, variously. The primary benefit of these transport modalities are not that they directly make a profit, any more than the highways primary benefit is that they directly make a profit; what they do is enable travel and so enable commerce and much tighter family ties and so make living in the boonies, where much of your food and raw materials are produced, a reasonable proposition. It's hard to live hundreds of miles from family and supplies. It's hard to get heavy equipment in and out of here. It's hard to move expertise in and out of here. Here are your citations:

              Amtrack cuts [theguardian.com]
              Rural air cuts [seattletimes.com]

              The economic value of rural America to non-rural America is huge; that is why there are roads here, trains here, communications services here, hospitals here, postal service here, schools here, and so on. Very little of that can make a direct profit. But if you have even the most basic understanding of economics, you will, once you actually think it through, immediately grasp why the value gained is worth the costs. Or, if you can't figure it out... well, you're not alone, anyway.

              That [interfering with visa] was bad, but [lame excuse clipped]

              There's no valid "but" here - it was an asshole move, by an asshole, that hurt people.

              [he lies] So what?

              So this degrades the office, the respect other countries have for us, the reception of American citizens elsewhere, the attitudes when commerce and treaties are at stake - the man is visibly and profoundly untrustworthy, or more probably simply batshit insane. It bloody well matters.

              I still don't see a wall.

              Again, you're not paying attention. The process has already started with prototypes. [washingtontimes.com] We will likely see further damage as long as that idiot is playing to his brownophobe cheering section, which seems to me to be likely to be as long as he can stay in that office.

              And what exactly have been the negative effects of [ignoring his briefings]?

              ...you know there's a reason for those briefings, right? How comfortable will you be with that habit if something happens and he doesn't know the relevant facts, can't make an informed decision or even understand the situation, and shit goes sideways? Your dismissal of this tells me you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not thinking.

              if you're going to make claims of harm, you need to actually provide evidence to back up your claims.

              Well no, I don't. I just have to be sure of my facts. And I am, very much so, because I've actually looked into this stuff as it went down instead of just sucking down the first media blurb or impassioned web post I see. From what you've said so far, you appear to be focused almost entirely on immediate and first-order effects. This blinds you to the actual weight of the issues at hand here (and others as well.) You can't even be bothered to Google up the issues, and you're not giving me serious responses, as amply demonstrated by your remark about the briefing issue.

              I will comment on one more thing. This:

              And after his [Bush II] 8 years were up, *then* we elected a black man who was an excellent speaker, and gave us basically more of the same, though he did give us a healthcare law

              That is either absurdly disingenuous, or massively uninformed, and either way it's an utterly unworthy statement.

              Yes, Obama was a traditional politician, warts and all. No, the Obama era wasn't even remotely "more of the same." The list of things Obama supported and pushed for that were positive is unusually long and varied for any president and in many cases more significant than most presidents. [washingtonmonthly.com] And the list I linked there is not complete, either - I just can't be bothered to do the rest of the work you should be doing – should have already done – if you want to actually take an informed stand as opposed to throwing out nonsense like the foregoing quote. It would really benefit you to refresh (or inform) your memory.

              I am no fan of the evil and wrongful things government does, and can rail about them at length, and that most certainly includes various harmful actions taken, and the stated harmful positions of, Obama and his administration. But I don't bury my head in the sand about positive thing X because I am offended by negative thing Y. No matter how long the list of Y things is. I also don't miss the point that I'm not - no one is - going to get perfection in a president. So WRT election, I pick the best available candidate that can reasonably be expected to have a chance of winning; and WRT a president's actions in office, I laud the important things (Obama gave me a great deal of cause for that... Bush did not produce much, and Trump has not produced more than one or two as yet, and that amidst a profound flurry of errors, incompetence, and what actually has every appearance of outright evildoing.) The whole thing involves actually paying attention, and then doing some checking on what the media - and the various denizens of the web - feed us. Use a search engine if you want to know what's actually going on. If you don't, then just watch TV like the rest of the mushrooms.

              I can't make you do that. But I can hope you will.

              Enough, then. You are welcome to the last word.

              • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @09:17PM

                by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @09:17PM (#623295)

                Ok, you've got a few good points here.

                Why coal pollution in streams is a problem regardless of the trend of coal usage [vox.com]

                From your link:
                Appalachian Voices, an environmental group, estimates that coal companies have buried over 2,000 miles of streams in the region through mountaintop removal mining since the 1990s. And there’s growing evidence that when mining debris and waste gets into water supplies, the toxic metals can have dire health impacts for the people and mostly rural communities living nearby.

                Ok, but at least we know that this mostly affects Trump voters, so they're getting exactly what they voted for. I feel sorry for the wildlife though.

                The removal of the subsidies has caused insurance rates to rise, and plans to reduce coverage, and plans to exit regions.

                Last I checked, subsidies were still in place. Some plans were exiting regions before Trump came along; ACA has always been a bad law, a band-aid on a massive open wound. It was never going to work very well.

                Yes, the current crop of Republicans are complicit, no argument there. Our citizens will die as a direct result of this.

                Yes, but this would have happened with any Republican in office, and maybe even with a Democrat since Congress is controlled by the GOP. Trump wasn't unique in his opposition to ACA, and some of his bloviating was actually much more reasonable-sounding than what the other mainstream GOP politicians were calling for. Trump specifically said on the campaign trail that he wanted everyone to have coverage; GOPers like Ted Cruz and Rand Paul do not want this.

                That's what Trump's bloviating amounts to, only writ on the national (and international) political stage. It's bad, in and of itself, and again, makes this country look like it encourages a jingoist, xenophobic society

                So now you're mad that Trump is just showing America for what it really is? I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but much of American society really is racist, jingoist, and xenophobic. Just look at what happened in Charlottesville, and the defense the neo-Nazis and other racists got all over the country, even right here on SN. How is it bad for Trump to be honest?

                what they do is enable travel and so enable commerce and much tighter family ties and so make living in the boonies, where much of your food and raw materials are produced, a reasonable proposition

                That's a bunch of crap. I'm very well-acquainted with rural life and rural dwellers; most of my family lives that way. The vast majority of people in rural areas aren't there to produce your food and raw materials, they're there because stuff like this subsidizes their existence there, so they can drive around gigantic vehicles they don't need and use far more energy per capita than anyone in the world, while not doing any kind of work that actually needs to be located remotely, or frequently not doing any kind of work at all because they live on government benefits. Most food now is produced by large agribusiness corporations with a lot of automation, and most rural areas do not have any mining operations nearby.

                It's hard to live hundreds of miles from family and supplies.

                Then don't. Move into a city. The vast majority of people living in the boonies don't need to be there, and aren't an important part of the economy there. These people simply don't like cities, but they're being subsidized to live the way they do.

                Amtrak isn't really needed for rural areas. It's needed for inter-city travel, and it's pretty lousy for that compared to trains in Europe and Japan.

                The economic value of rural America to non-rural America is huge; that is why there are roads here, trains here, communications services here, hospitals here, postal service here, schools here, and so on.

                No, it's because of inertia, and because of people who refuse to leave. In case you haven't noticed, Americans have been urbanizing in droves in the past several decades, and small towns are dying, and for good reason: their industries are obsolete, and we don't need armies of people to work on farms any more thanks to automation and mechanization. The people who are left are generally old people who refuse to leave, and young ones too stupid to leave.

                So this degrades the office, the respect other countries have for us, the reception of American citizens elsewhere

                So what? We had that when Dubya was in office. And again, *we voted for Trump*, so if that means other countries respect us less, then we're getting what we voted for.

                Again, you're not paying attention. The process has already started with prototypes.

                We've had a wall along parts of the southern border for probably decades now. Have you ever been to San Diego? Prototypes do not equal an actual wall, or significant spending.

                There's no valid "but" here - it was an asshole move, by an asshole, that hurt people.

                I can point to asshole moves that hurt people by all the Presidents during my lifetime I'm pretty sure.

                From what you've said so far, you appear to be focused almost entirely on immediate and first-order effects.

                I'm focused on *actual* effects, which I'm not seeing many of so far. Basically, your claim is "well nothing too horrible has happened yet, but it will!!!" Maybe, maybe not. So far, not. You haven't proven anything, your whole argument seems to be "Trump is an idiot and should be impeached based on that alone!". Dubya was an idiot too, and look what happened there. Being an idiot isn't a disqualifier for the Presidency.

                As for your list of accomplishments, that's extremely biased. Many of those are genuine improvements, others not so unarguably, such as the GM bailout (should have let it die and be broken up and bought up by competitors), the broadband subsidies (which went to incumbent companies who pocketed the money and didn't deliver anything), and the space program (Obama was a disaster here; we haven't had manned space launch capability in ages because of him, and the decision to abandon/bypass the Moon was just stupid; we're in no shape to send humans to Mars when we can't even build a semi-permanent presence on our nearby Moon).

                Is Trump bad? Sure. Is he the complete world-ending disaster you claim he'll be? Sorry, but I'm not yet seeing evidence of that. We already had an idiot buffoon as President back in 2000, and we re-elected him, and we managed to survive that. I'm not seeing yet how Trump is actually worse than Bush. When Trump starts two (not just one, but two) separate wars, and actually has people tortured, *then* I'll admit that he's at least as bad as Bush.

          • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:33PM (1 child)

            by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:33PM (#623245) Journal

            It's almost like you are cheering on the next civil war. You do realize that there are limits to what people will put up with? With Americans engrossed in moronic bullshit like Facefook, I certainly can't say what the limits are, but you are flirting with those limits.

            The ACA for instance. It doesn't work. The government is subsidizing each and every insurance policy purchased. And, the subsidies are going to run out - at which point, damned near no one will be able to pay the premiums. Yet - gubbermint was determined to punish any uninsured persons for being uninsured.

            How many people do you think could have been prosecuted, without some violence taking place?

            Trump's term will end one way or another, very likely early,

            Maybe you would like to explain that to your freindly FBI and/or Secret Service agent? Try THINKING about what you say, and post. That looks like a veiled call for an assassination to me.

            But, of course, if you were THINKIING, you would understand just how evil Hillary is, and how much bullshit the party throws at you. Almost all of the shit that you get worked up about, is just stupid red herrings, meant to keep you occupied, while government gets on with the serious business of governing.

            How is the mass surveillance going, anyway? And, what was Hillary's position on that? How about the Democrat party's position? Oh yeah - they're in lockstep with the Republicans on that issue. Smoke and mirrors, to fool the chumps, but keep on building the infrastructure to watch the proles 24/7, 365.

            Wake up and smell the coffee.

            Unless he suffers a stroke, Trump will finish his term. And, unless he's caught en flagrante with prepubescent children in his bed, he'll probably be re-elected. Your apoplexy won't change a thing - recent history suggests that the incumbent almost always wins, no matter how good or bad he might be.

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday January 16 2018, @09:26PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @09:26PM (#623298)

              Your apoplexy won't change a thing - recent history suggests that the incumbent almost always wins, no matter how good or bad he might be.

              Not exactly. Recent history shows that the incumbent always wins, *except* when the economy takes a dive during his re-election campaign (and it helps if it turns out he went back on a campaign promise to not raise taxes).

              If the economy is doing badly in 2020, expect Trump to lose. If it's doing OK, expect him to win, unless maybe the Democrats break with tradition and actually pick a likeable candidate.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @10:24AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @10:24AM (#623065)

        And, yes, Trump remains the lesser of the two evils that were offered to us.

        Nonsense. Trump is an idiot, an incompetent

        That's exactly what makes him the lesser of two evils. Incompetent evil is better than competent evil.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @06:21PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 16 2018, @06:21PM (#623206)

      but he didn't mention the other side

      saying everyone is jumping off the bridge or peeing in the pool doesn't mean it explains logically why you and your friends did it as well.

      if you're to convince us your team is better because the other team is stupid, pointing out that they do stupid things *too* or that they did it first... is no winning argument.

      • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:43PM (1 child)

        by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday January 16 2018, @07:43PM (#623252) Journal

        Well - I don't have a team. I'm a registered independent voter, because I despised the two parties pretty much equally when I registered to vote in 1974. Times change, and the parties have changed. Today, I still despise the Republicans just about as much as I did back then. But, I despise the Democrats much more than I did then. It's like the Republicans are the Pied Piper, taking a leisureley stroll to hell, while leading the ignorant children along. The Democrats, on the other hand, insist that we all ride a supercharged, turbocharged, quantum powered train to hell at hypervelocity.

        If I had to choose, I'd rather follow the pied piper. I'm in no hurry to get to hell. But, I refuse to choose, actually. I'm independent.

        • (Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Tuesday January 16 2018, @10:57PM

          by Azuma Hazuki (5086) on Tuesday January 16 2018, @10:57PM (#623349) Journal

          Don't worry, you're definitely going to Hell all by your lonesome.

          --
          I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...