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posted by janrinok on Monday January 29 2018, @02:35AM   Printer-friendly
from the and-so-it-begins dept.

A number of states are considering right to repair bills, legislation which if passed would make it easier for individuals and repair shops to replace or repair electronics parts. Repair.org reports that 17 states have already introduced bills this year and while most aim to make repair parts and manuals accessible, Washington's proposed legislation would straight up ban electronics that prevent easy repair. "Original manufacturers of digital electronic products sold on or after January 1, 2019, in Washington state are prohibited from designing or manufacturing digital electronic products in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider," says the bill. "Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."

[...] Naturally, tech groups have jumped to make their opposition clear. In a letter to Morris, groups such as the Consumer Technology Association, the Telecommunications Industry Association and the Computer Technology Industry Association said the bill was "unwarranted" and added, "With access to technical information, criminals can more easily circumvent security protections, harming not only the product owner but also everyone who shares their network."

Source: Engadget


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  • (Score: 4, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 29 2018, @03:00AM (22 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @03:00AM (#629680) Journal

    A person should be able to make repairs to anything, and everything, that he owns. I can't begin to count the items that I have damaged, because I didn't know how to get it OPEN! Automotive panels and upholstery, for starters, household appliances, and electronics - no one wants to tell you how they come apart. Even if you're lucky enough to have a manual, it usually starts out with "open Panel A" without explaining how the hell Panel A is released.

    Luckily, today, we have online forums, where helpful people have described how to do a lot of these things. Something like, "Place a small precision screwdriver at the upper left corner of the panel, force the tip into the seam, and pry up." Without that hint, you have a 50/50 chance of trying to pry from the bottom of the panel, and destroying the panel so that it will never lock into place again.

    Of course, with electronic gadgets, that is only the first, and largest hurdle to pass. It's the stuff inside that you were interested in, and that is seldom documented. Call it "trade secrets" or whatever, it's all bullshit. Not to mention that oftentimes, it costs extra for the documentation. I need a fifty dollar manual, to work on my twenty dollar gadget? And, a one hundred twenty dollar manual to work on more complex stuff?

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @03:20AM (19 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @03:20AM (#629683)

    Yowza! Sounds like you shouldn't be trying to fix anything yourself. Maybe you should take whatever is broken (meaning before you broke it further) to a professional. Then you can spend all that free time in anger management to learn how not to break things in the first place.

    Remember "Hulk smash!" is only entertaining in the movies.

    • (Score: 5, Funny) by The Mighty Buzzard on Monday January 29 2018, @03:31AM (4 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Monday January 29 2018, @03:31AM (#629686) Homepage Journal

      Remember "Hulk smash!" is only entertaining in the movies.

      Says you. I find it deeply gratifying on a primal level.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @05:29AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @05:29AM (#629708)

        I find it deeply gratifying on a primal level.

        Is the primal level the one on which you spend 90%+ of your time?

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:12PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:12PM (#630027)

          No, just money, replacing iphones like they were candy. Its good to be king.

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @07:08AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @07:08AM (#629732)

        Society hurt bank account, TMB SMASH!!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:12AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:12AM (#629772)

        Says you. I find it deeply gratifying on a primal level.

        What about on an Office Space level?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:37AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:37AM (#629755)

      Sounds like you are being a smartass with no skills.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:09AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:09AM (#629770)

        Actually, it sounds like "smartass" is a skill AC has mastered.

    • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 29 2018, @10:25AM (11 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @10:25AM (#629761) Journal

      We might consider the opposite position. You appear to be helpless, without a specialist holding your hand. You're afraid of breaking an already broken item, so you won't even look inside of it, hoping to find something that you understand. If you don't understand what you see, you probably won't search for a book that might give you some understanding.

      Last week, I had a thermolator stop working. It showed an alarm that water exceeded the 260 degree F safety cutoff. I tinkered with that thing for a couple days, and finally called Conair, the manufacturer. The tech on the phone has a drawing - which I do not. While trying to determine which of two very similar models I was looking at, he asked me if wires 3 and 7 were shorted to each other. Touch those wires, yes they are wire nutted together - and when I touch them, the machine starts running. Found the problem, an intermittent contact. Cut off the crimped on wire nut, replace with a threaded wire nut, and the machine works again.

      The real question is, why in hell isn't there a schematic in the operator's manual? Obviously, one exists, because the tech was looking at it. Jesus, this kind of thing pisses me off!

      If/when I ever see this alarm again, I'll know to look for those wires. The next guy to come along, trying to keep these things running, won't know that.

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Aiwendil on Monday January 29 2018, @11:01AM (5 children)

        by Aiwendil (531) on Monday January 29 2018, @11:01AM (#629767) Journal

        If/when I ever see this alarm again, I'll know to look for those wires. The next guy to come along, trying to keep these things running, won't know that.

        Unless you do something silly like actually document what you've done and leave a printout with the manuals (and/or the archive) ;)

        (While being a bit tounge-in-cheeck - this actually is the required procedures in some areas; all fixes and changes and changes to states needs to be documented and sent of to the archive [and occasionally to the regulatory agency] and integrated into the next revision of documentation and unit-side documentation. But then again - having out-of-date documentation tends to have front-page-news sideeffects in those areas).

        But I agree on lacking schematics in non-toy grade equipment is just bonkers (again - in some fields you even get a printout of the sourcecode for the software)

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 29 2018, @11:21AM (4 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @11:21AM (#629774) Journal

          My choice was to document it in the maintenance log, on the computer. I was thinking about that though. No one is going to look at the log for Thermolator 1509, if they are having problems with some other thermolator. The manuals? Most of our people take a manual, use it, and drop it where ever they finish with it. The filing cabinets are atrocious. Nothing is ever where it belongs, and finding a manual is near impossible. I've taken to printing things out, and keeping them in my own toolboxes.

          Long story short, we have no real documentation.

          • (Score: 4, Interesting) by Aiwendil on Monday January 29 2018, @12:34PM (3 children)

            by Aiwendil (531) on Monday January 29 2018, @12:34PM (#629795) Journal

            Most people in your field needs to be LARTed it seems - in my field the on-site documentation is put back _and_ alphabetised. The most common pieces used we laminate a copy of and affix to the wall near the unit (or in case of lack of wallspace - on the unit). Net result is that we rarely need to walk more than 25m for documentation and usually less than 5m (we usually have to walk further to reach the light switches).

            The archive is also digitized and everyone in a project has access to all relevant drawings to them via the project platform, so in the rare cases documentation are missing (or if you need to work at the places that is newer than on-site documentation [gets updated monthly]) you can just pull them).
            The digitization came about due to the archive ending up being messy enough that it often was faster to just visit the on-site copies, so we just decided on digitizing everything (and keeping dead trees copies in the archive as well - digital storage fail to meet our archive requirement (at least 40 years of readability)).

            I think it is a legal issue as well somewhere that enforces this behaviour with us, it is at least in a few of our sibling industries between which we exchange workers quite a bit.

            • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 29 2018, @10:56PM (2 children)

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @10:56PM (#630072) Journal

              I truly envy you, for your work environment.

              Digitization is beautiful. I thought that we were entering the 21st century when they set up a computer in the shop. "Sweet", says I. "We can get the digital stuff, and put it all in one place, and maybe get digital copies of stuff that is on paper now!" What a fool I was. Upper management basically forbids putting most of our stuff on the hard drive. "It's illegal to make copies!" "What?" I ask. "You can't just make copies of this stuff! It's all copyrighted!"

              Sweet Jesus - my own management actively prevents me from creating a digital library to make my job easier. So, we're still using a filing cabinet, and a couple of lockers for all that stuff.

              Yes, I envy you. Fully half of what I know about our equipment is simply undocumented. The stuff my boss knows is equally undocumented - and that's just the way he likes it. He thinks it makes him indispensible.

              • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Aiwendil on Tuesday January 30 2018, @12:27AM

                by Aiwendil (531) on Tuesday January 30 2018, @12:27AM (#630117) Journal

                Start to work in infrastructure - this is the norm there (well, is in western europe anyway). The flipside is that mistakes are considered small if they end up with only a few millions in incurred costs to society.

                Were I work the praxis for the last couple of decades has been to always demand that we get the copyright (or be allowed unlimted internal copies and unlimited modification for internal use and use with contractors and their subcontractors) on every piece of documentation we get our hands on, and most of it are produced in-house (I actually create lots of the documentation - which is kinda funny since I don't have clearance for most documentation nor for visiting the archive [quite a bit of documentation has been created by me taking a few hours with a camera and photographing _everything_ installed and then creating docs from images]). This is pretty much a sideeffect of our stuff needing to be around for decades.

                Oh also, here in sweden physical documents are getting rare (both private and at work), so when you'd normally just ask someone to mail you a few binders of documentation you now just get an email with pdf:s instead (surprisingly many companies has full-duplex ADF-scanners) - there is a perverse sense of schizotech in getting a freshly created PDF of documentation that states the equipment needed is "an Intel 80386 or compatible with math co-processor, DOS5.0 or higher, and an RS-232 port". (This explains why being cashless isn't a major issue here - here cash just was something that got properly digitized late in the game)

                Have you tried asking the boss if you are allowed to set up an internal "best practices archive" where people document what they've done? Normally that tends to transfer all the information without transferring the documents themselves while being easier to sell to paranoid management. Or maybe an archive of the current state of your equipment?
                And I really hope he enjoys never being allowed to turn off his phone - that is what indispensible really means, being on-call 24/7/365.24

              • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Tuesday January 30 2018, @01:56AM

                by RS3 (6367) on Tuesday January 30 2018, @01:56AM (#630142)

                I'm a very hands-on EE (I'd rather build racecar engines than sit in an ivory tower), not a lawyer, but as far as I know, it _is_ legal to make those copies, including scanning / digitizing, OCR, etc. It comes under "fair use". It's worth researching. You really need to be able to use a computer to search for info.

                Also, you should have diagnostic charts _along with_ schematics, wire lists, part location drawings, etc.

                I do a fair bit of wiring. I know crimps are supposed to be awesome, but the problem, IMHO, is that most crimpers don't measure pressure, so you can't really be sure enough cold weld happens. Good old twist wire nuts are great, just make sure the wire ends are even before starting the twist or nut, but you knew that.

      • (Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:25AM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @11:25AM (#629777)

        You appear to be helpless, without a specialist holding your hand. You're afraid of breaking an already broken item, so you won't even look inside of it, hoping to find something that you understand. If you don't understand what you see, you probably won't search for a book that might give you some understanding.

        Swing and a miss. I've been taking things apart to see how they work for more than 50 years. And I've been fixing them for more than 40. I just didn't want to pass it up a chance to have a little fun with you, because you are often a miserable prick.

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Monday January 29 2018, @11:47AM (1 child)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @11:47AM (#629787) Journal

          because you are often a miserable prick.

          Interpreted to mean that you are often a miserable prick because you disagree with me. :^)

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:12PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @09:12PM (#630028)

            Interpreted to mean that you are often a miserable prick because you disagree with me. :^)

            No, I disagree with you more often than you act like a miserable prick.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @12:11PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 29 2018, @12:11PM (#629791)

        The real question is, why in hell isn't there a schematic in the operator's manual?

        For a couple of reasons, and reality is probably a mixture of all of them

        Reason 1: Because lawyers.
        The lawyers, in order to protect the company against the idiot who zaps themselves with electricity then sues the company for damages, pushed for "don't provide any repair info" with the device, and further, stamp everything "no user serviceable parts inside, and further, lock everything together so the fools who would sue can't even get inside to hurt themselves.
        Reason 2: Because repair shops
        The business exec's, tired of simply making money off the plain sale of the product, were looking for ways to continue the revenue stream out into the future. So, when the lawyers ponied up with their worries about "joe lawsuit from idiot" issues, the business folks saw an opportunity to make money after the sale by locking away the repair info, and locking up the device, such that you have to call the factory authorized service center. And do you know what factory authorized really means? It means the maker gets a cut of every repair job bill for authorizing the repair.
        • (Score: 2) by Aiwendil on Monday January 29 2018, @07:03PM

          by Aiwendil (531) on Monday January 29 2018, @07:03PM (#629961) Journal

          Reason 1: Because lawyers.
          The lawyers, in order to protect the company against the idiot who zaps themselves with electricity then sues the company for damages, pushed for "don't provide any repair info" with the device, and further, stamp everything "no user serviceable parts inside, and further, lock everything together so the fools who would sue can't even get inside to hurt themselves

          Electrical installations in sweden has a wonderful take on this point (or maybe used to, havn't read the 2018 update yet). Roughly speaking the two rules are "you are allowed to make the changes you are competent to do" and the other is "fackmannamässigt utförande" (roughly translates to "done like a professional would") - in practice this is interpreted as "as long as it works well enough and doesn't causes any issues" and "would pass an inspection".

          In other words - it is ok to fix and replace (but not do fresh installs) the electrical stuff but if something goes wrong you bear the full responsibilities _and_ you've just voided your insurance.

  • (Score: 4, Interesting) by leftover on Monday January 29 2018, @03:26AM

    by leftover (2448) on Monday January 29 2018, @03:26AM (#629684)

    Same experience here. Most (aka 'all') of my equipment gets opened sooner or later. Making that harder just means fixing broken parts takes extra time and resources. This does not endear the brand to me. Stock ICs either potted-in or with the numbers ground off have been known to get suppliers blacklisted. It isn't just electronic products with this problem: fan motors with standard-size bearings locked inside spot-welded sheetmetal cases are a particular peeve. Flimsy cases accelerate bearing failure then prevent their replacement. Only a fully indoctrinated BA major could see that as a good thing.

    --
    Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
  • (Score: 2, Insightful) by c0lo on Monday January 29 2018, @05:32AM

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Monday January 29 2018, @05:32AM (#629710) Journal

    A person should be able to make repairs to anything, and everything, that he owns.

    Except you don't own your phone (or tractor), you just obtained a perpetual license to use it [theguardian.com]!

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford