Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments

SoylentNews is people

posted by martyb on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:06AM   Printer-friendly
from the more-money-than-sense dept.

The NYT reports that a loosely knit group of crypto-currency multi-million/billionaires have chosen Puerto Rico to set up shop -- several reasons are given including a tax haven for US citizens and low real estate prices since the hurricane Maria destruction last year. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/technology/cryptocurrency-puerto-rico.html

Dozens of entrepreneurs, made newly wealthy by blockchain and cryptocurrencies, are heading en masse to Puerto Rico this winter. They are selling their homes and cars in California and establishing residency on the Caribbean island in hopes of avoiding what they see as onerous state and federal taxes on their growing fortunes, some of which now reach into the billions of dollars.

And these men — because they are almost exclusively men — have a plan for what to do with the wealth: They want to build a crypto utopia, a new city where the money is virtual and the contracts are all public, to show the rest of the world what a crypto future could look like. Blockchain, a digital ledger that forms the basis of virtual currencies, has the potential to reinvent society — and the Puertopians want to prove it.

For more than a year, the entrepreneurs had been searching for the best location. After Hurricane Maria decimated Puerto Rico's infrastructure in September and the price of cryptocurrencies began to soar, they saw an opportunity and felt a sense of urgency.

[...] The movement is alarming an earlier generation of Puerto Rico tax expats like the hedge fund manager Robb Rill, who runs a social group for those taking advantage of the tax incentives.

"They call me up saying they're going to buy 250,000 acres so they can incorporate their own city, literally start a city in Puerto Rico to have their own crypto world," said Mr. Rill, who moved to the island in 2013. "I can't engage in that."
 

I suggest that the SN posters who write, "everything should be organized by contracts, not government" please buy a one-way ticket to PR now! And then see if you can actually make it work. [With limited electricity and thus limited internet, they may not pester the rest of us so often.]


Original Submission

 
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
Display Options Threshold/Breakthrough Mark All as Read Mark All as Unread
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
  • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:27PM (33 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:27PM (#633793) Homepage Journal

    No, I'm saying supply and demand make shitty pay into excellent pay when nobody else is getting paid at all.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    Starting Score:    1  point
    Moderation   +2  
       Insightful=2, Total=2
    Extra 'Insightful' Modifier   0  
    Karma-Bonus Modifier   +1  

    Total Score:   4  
  • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:53PM (15 children)

    by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:53PM (#633806) Journal

    No, shitty pay is shitty pay. It might be better than nothing, but it's still shitty.
    And people being desperate doesn't justify paying them shitty pay.

    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:12PM (14 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:12PM (#633812) Homepage Journal

      No, shitty pay is shitty pay.

      Outright false. What's good or bad for pay for a job is entirely determined by cost of living and what others doing the same job in the same area are making.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:22PM (10 children)

        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:22PM (#633821) Journal

        What's good or bad for pay for a job is entirely determined by cost of living

        Cost of living yes. Note that just because a place has been hit by a hurricane, it doesn't mean the cost of living there will be low.

        and what others doing the same job in the same area are making.

        Not necessarily. In a market where there is an oversupply of labour and little in the way of economic mobility (like, say a disaster zone) then there is nothing to drive pay up and everybody will be stuck on the same crappy wages.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:44PM (9 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:44PM (#633833) Homepage Journal

          ...just because a place has been hit by a hurricane, it doesn't mean the cost of living there will be low.

          No, cost of living already being quite low there is what would mean that. The hurricane will actually temporarily increase short-term cost of living for a lot of folks.

          In a market where there is an oversupply of labour and little in the way of economic mobility (like, say a disaster zone) then there is nothing to drive pay up and everybody will be stuck on the same crappy wages.

          Have you ever lived in a disaster zone? I'm going to assume not since you just spouted that nonsense. Here's what actually happens: anyone with the tools and the skills to (re)build things is going to make a fuckload of money. Anyone with only the skills will make almost as much. Anyone willing to quickly acquire the skills is going to make significantly better money than most. It's straight out of the Keynesian playbook but with an actual need being filled.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:05PM (7 children)

            by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:05PM (#633848) Journal

            anyone with the tools and the skills to (re)build things is going to make a fuckload of money. Anyone with only the skills will make almost as much. Anyone willing to quickly acquire the skills is going to make significantly better money than most.

            OK, I'll grant you that. Congratulations for answering your own question. Now how about addressing the point you so cunningly diverted us from about four posts ago?

            Once the billionaires have their shiny mansions by the beach, and the industrious local carpenters & bricklayers & plumbers have made their fuckloads of money, let's talk about the cleaners and gardeners and servants and so on? Presumably these will be drawn from the local population. Will they be living within the blessed Atlas-Zone, or will they be bussed in every day from the slums ten miles down the road where different laws apply? Are the wonderful principles of no-tax-no-gov-contracts-for-everything going to be fairly applied to those people, who have no negotiating power whatsoever compared with their ultra-wealthy neighbours? When they get sick of being played off against one another for lower and lower pay and band together to bargain collectively, will the billionaires use their glorious freedoms to have their private security forces bust some skulls?

            • (Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:20PM (6 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:20PM (#633859) Homepage Journal

              Now how about addressing the point you so cunningly diverted us from about four posts ago?

              That wasn't a diversion, that was a tangent. I addressed the only bit that made enough sense to warrant a response. Since you seem to want a response to your nonsense though...

              What the local government does or does not do in regards to its citizens is up to the local government. The guys moving there have nothing to do with that since they did not vote any of them in. You want to point a finger? Point it at the people for putting up with corruption in their elected officials.

              What the guys moving there do is not going to be what you think. If they want quality help, they're going to have to pay for it like anyone else. Having a gerzillion dollars does not mean you can pay someone less than what they could get by going down the street. It generally means the opposite.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:31PM (5 children)

                by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:31PM (#633869) Journal

                Who said anything about local government or elected officials? As I understand it, within their own city borders, these billionaires effectively WILL be the local government.

                • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:42PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:42PM (#633876)

                  I see you're learning what its like to discuss anything with tmb. He is always right, your points are stupid and irrelevant, and the whole exercise is pointless.

                • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by jmorris on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:30PM (3 children)

                  by jmorris (4844) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:30PM (#633924)

                  Good luck with that. PR is a one party Democratic shithole. If anyone thinks any deal with the territorial government is going to be binding after the concrete sets up they are utopians who will learn a practical lesson soon enough. The local government will welcome them with open arms, help them build a bunch of fresh new infrastructure and then seize it and as much of the new inhabitants wealth as they possibly can. You can use PR as a tax haven only if you are more than just new rich, you need to be jacked into the political system in a way a bunch of Libertarian spergs aren't.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:12PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:12PM (#633991)

                    phase two of puertopia: exterminate local gov officials.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:00PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:00PM (#634123)

                    Wooow, some insane speculation going on there pal. There is more than one party and the country wasn't a shithole. Probably a bit of one now, but I think it is excusable. PR is a territory and I'm pretty sure just seizing people's assets would open them up to lawsuits and other troubles.

                    While I can't say for 100% certain, your "local government will welcome them with open arms, help them build a bunch of fresh new infrastructure and then seize it and as much of the new inhabitants wealth as they possibly can" is pure craziness without some type of supporting evidence.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:59PM

                    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:59PM (#634200)

                    > You can use PR as a tax haven only if you are more than just new rich, ...

                    This is the sort of prediction that I would love to be reminded of--in a few years to see how it worked out. While I personally think the outcome will be better than jmorris does, most likely I'll just forget about the whole story. And the NY Times author will probably forget about it too, unless something else newsworthy happens with these blockchain utopians.

                    Perhaps a "tickler" file add-in for SN could be set up so that logged-in users could mark an article for a reminder and get an email or something after the specified time has lapsed. The email could be a very simple form -- "UserName requested to be reminded of this SN post/story (linky) today. The story was originally posted on (date), and your requested (time) has now passed.

                    "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" (or words to that effect).

          • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday February 07 2018, @05:55AM

            by dry (223) on Wednesday February 07 2018, @05:55AM (#634314) Journal

            That's only true if the disaster happens somewhere with access to money (insurance, credit, cash, government assistance). Places like Haiti, not so much.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:51PM (2 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:51PM (#633839)

        > ...is entirely determined...

        Beware of absolute statements. The world is a gray zone, very rarely are sweeping generalizations completely correct.

        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:22PM (1 child)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:22PM (#633860) Homepage Journal

          True. I simply expect anyone here to be smart enough to spot when I'm using a broad generalization and understand that's all it's meant to be.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @12:11AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @12:11AM (#634212)

            We keep thinking similar things and you always seem to disappoint.

  • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:58PM (16 children)

    by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @01:58PM (#633807)

    When you live on an island and most food and other essentials of life are imported, shitty pay is shitty - it still won't buy enough food for the table, insect screening for the blown out windows, etc.

    --
    🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:20PM (15 children)

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:20PM (#633820) Homepage Journal

      You believe pay should be based on need rather than market value of the work performed? Idiotic thinking like that is what has created the race to claim the most oppression among the regressive left in the US. It was also spelled out exactly how and why it destroys any nation it infects decades ago by Ayn Rand. But I expect you'll get all triggered by seeing her name and dismiss that without actually thinking about it.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
      • (Score: 4, Informative) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:31PM (7 children)

        by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:31PM (#633827) Journal

        race to claim the most oppression

        Wow, hyperbole much?

        Anyway, it seems you'd prefer a race to the bottom instead. Note that the only winners in such a race are bottom-feeders.

        Ayn Rand. But I expect you'll get all triggered by seeing her name and dismiss that without actually thinking

        That's kind of rich, seeing as how you just pre-emptively dismissed any counter argument in that very sentence.

        FWIW, Ayn Rand was a delusional fantasist hypocrite with incredibly simplistic ideas about society and economics, and her work is rightly ignored.

        • (Score: 1, Troll) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:50PM (6 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:50PM (#633838) Homepage Journal

          You think that's hyperbole? Have you not been paying attention for the past twenty years? There were actually feminist groups trying to silence or kick white women out for being too privileged just in the past year.

          FWIW, Ayn Rand was a delusional fantasist hypocrite with incredibly simplistic ideas about society and economics that I've never read...

          FTFY.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:12PM (4 children)

            by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:12PM (#633853) Journal

            Ummm...? Because some crazy people don't understand feminism, paying a living wage is oppression. You might have to walk me through that one.

            And I can only assume you think I haven't read any Rand because if I had, then it's shining logic would have instantly converted me to your viewpoint. Haha. It's the most tedious, simplistic, self-important nonsense I've ever waded through. The arguments are fatuous, the characters two-dimensional and the strawmen are piled up like kindling. If she is the best argument you have, give up now.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:24PM (2 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:24PM (#633861) Homepage Journal

              Sigh. Claiming oppression is claiming need. Can you figure it out from there or do I really have to type it all out?

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 2) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:34PM

                by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:34PM (#633872) Journal

                Well yeah. If someone is oppressed, then they have a need. A need to not be oppressed. What's your point?

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:47PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:47PM (#633879)

                I don't get the oppression - need part, please explain.

            • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:22PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:22PM (#634048)

              "The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged are two books you can give a 15-year-old that will change his life forever. One will draw him into a fantasy world where people who are losers in real life can become heroic captains engaged in a timeless, righteous struggle against evil. The other is about orcs". - Source Unknown

              No Comment.

          • (Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Wednesday February 07 2018, @02:22AM

            by NotSanguine (285) <NotSanguineNO@SPAMSoylentNews.Org> on Wednesday February 07 2018, @02:22AM (#634258) Homepage Journal

            I have read Ayn Rand.

            And she actually writes tolerably well. The issue comes in with the *content* of her writing. She talks out of her ass and it smells that way too.

            The Howard Roark [wikipedia.org] character is a sociopathic narcissist that Rand attempts to raise up as a hero. It's pretty pathetic actually.

            Your argument would work better if those around you were all illiterate. Unfortunately for you, some are not.

            --
            No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
      • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:48PM (6 children)

        by JoeMerchant (3937) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:48PM (#633836)

        In 1976 Ayn Rand enrolled in Social Security and Medicare.

        --
        🌻🌻 [google.com]
        • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:52PM (5 children)

          by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:52PM (#633841) Homepage Journal

          Aren't you one of those folks who'll scream to the top of their lungs that Social Security and Medicare are not entitlements but things you've paid into and are simply getting your returns from? Me, I think they're ponzi schemes but that doesn't excuse you from making your arguments jive with each other.

          --
          My rights don't end where your fear begins.
          • (Score: 5, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:15PM (4 children)

            by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:15PM (#633856) Journal

            If a person eats pork, I have no problem with that. I happen to eat pork myself, from time to time.

            If a person spends the best part of his life telling other people that eating pork is evil, that eating pork will destroy society, that pork-eaters are the enemy within... and then goes on an all-pork diet WHILE STILL DECRYING THE EVILS OF PORK TO ANYONE STUPID ENOUGH TO LISTEN... that's when I have a problem.

            • (Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:26PM (3 children)

              by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:26PM (#633862) Homepage Journal

              Flawed analogy. Rand was forced to pay into those programs whether she liked it or not just like everyone else. Explain to me how getting her own back in any way negates anything she ever said.

              --
              My rights don't end where your fear begins.
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:40PM

                by GreatAuntAnesthesia (3275) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:40PM (#633875) Journal

                Because by her own loudly-opined standards1, being reliant on welfare makes her a worthless, useless drain on society and a failure of a human being who should just do the world a favour by quietly starving to death. Why should anyone listen to the rantings of a failure?

                1Not mine, hers.

              • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:49PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:49PM (#633881)

                So taxes aren't theft, we are getting the value we pay for. Thanks for clearing that up.

                • (Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday February 07 2018, @06:07AM

                  by dry (223) on Wednesday February 07 2018, @06:07AM (#634315) Journal

                  You're not living in a wealthy society with quite a few freedoms and the ability to raise yourself up? You always have the option of getting dropped off somewhere on the Alaskan Highway, be self-sufficient and never pay taxes.