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posted by Fnord666 on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:16PM   Printer-friendly
from the no-tipping-allowed dept.

Submitted via IRC for SoyCow9228

Back in December, we reported on the Trump administration's proposed changes to tip-pooling regulations that would allow employers to pocket servers' tips as long as the employees continue to make minimum wage. That's right: Employers could take servers' tips and just dole out the minimum wage. But wait, it gets worse!

Turns out, the Department Of Labor knew how crappy this would make life for restaurant employees. This Bloomberg Law article, citing sources within the agency, reveals that the Department Of Labor knowingly buried its own data that showed restaurant workers would lose billions of dollars in gratuities under the new proposal.

Source: https://thetakeout.com/proposed-tip-pooling-law-is-so-bad-for-workers-the-gove-1822664111


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:45PM (50 children)

    by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:45PM (#633834) Journal

    As a person living in Australia, I see mandatory tipping as a shitty cultural tradition. Wait, that's even worse, it's not even cultural, it's socio-economical.

    Listen, if it's me to bear the responsibility of paying the waiter, then I should be allowed to bring my own employee to serve me in your restaurant.
    If it is you to provide this service, then carry on the whole responsibility and fucking pay your employees.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
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  • (Score: 3, Disagree) by The Mighty Buzzard on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:57PM (33 children)

    by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Tuesday February 06 2018, @02:57PM (#633843) Homepage Journal

    Work as wait staff in the US and then tell me that. Not a single competent waiter or waitress would ever take flat pay over minimal pay plus tips. It would be a huge pay cut.

    --
    My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:10PM (6 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:10PM (#633852) Journal

      Work as wait staff in the US and then tell me that.

      Now, why the hell should I do that? I mean, this whole world doesn't start nor finish with US.
      I didn't like my country of origin, I left for other one that I like much better. If I'd been born in US, probably I'd do the same.

      Works with countries just as well as with the services provided by companies. Ubi bene, ibi patria (this is exactly how US got populated, don't try playing the patriot card on me).

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2, Redundant) by DannyB on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:38PM (5 children)

        by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:38PM (#633930) Journal

        Now, why the hell should I do that? I mean, this whole world doesn't start nor finish with US.

        Are you saying the other 96% of the earth's population outside the US might have a different opinion?

        But . . . America First! Make America Grate Great Again. Etc.

        --
        People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
        • (Score: 4, Insightful) by Freeman on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:39PM (4 children)

          by Freeman (732) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:39PM (#633974) Journal

          Hmm..., lets see here, most populous countries. Well there's #1 China, #2 India, and who's #3? Oh, yeah, the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population [wikipedia.org]

          Then you have these kinds of numbers:
          "Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day." http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats [globalissues.org]

          Note the areas that have serious issues with poverty. Note, China (1bil+ population) still has 20% of their population that are in serious poverty. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_percentage_of_population_living_in_poverty#/media/File:Countries_by_poverty_rate_world_bank_data.png [wikipedia.org] So, only nearly 2/3 of the population of the united states worth of people in China are making about $3 a day. That's just under $1,100 a year.

          So, yeah, the United States has a big voice, because it is one of the largest and most prosperous nations on Earth. Half of the world doesn't care so much though, because they're busy trying to survive.

          --
          Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
          • (Score: 2) by DannyB on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:04PM (2 children)

            by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:04PM (#634033) Journal

            yeah, the United States has a big voice, because it is one of the largest and most prosperous nations on Earth.

            Most prosperous, sure.

            Biggest. Yes, based on wealth. Based on land area, maybe, I don't know. But several other countries have large land areas. But definitely not biggest in terms of population. Googling US population and World population and using a sophisticated mathematical technique (eg, "division") I can determine the US is about 4.5% of the world's population and everyone else is about 95.5% of the world's population.

            So that would seem to indicate that the United States "big voice" is really because of wealth.

            Does that perception of wealth also consider debt? That makes me wonder if Trump is very wealthy. But we'll never see any tax returns.

            Ah, there is the military. A powerful military. The most powerful. The best military. Trust me. A big, beautiful military. I promise. And we've got the best bombs.

            But then, Russia has a respectable military. Maybe even China does too.

            --
            People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Freeman on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:36PM (1 child)

              by Freeman (732) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:36PM (#634056) Journal

              Conveniently skipped over the second half of my post, you did.

              At least 50% of the world doesn't care, because they are in abject poverty. Also, Surprise! The other 50% of the world doesn't agree on everything. So, your 4.5% of the world isn't disagreeing with 95.5% of the world.

              World leaders are leaders, because they are doing something right. And / or have the biggest stick. "U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt’s foreign policy: "speak softly, and carry a big stick."" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Stick_ideology [wikipedia.org]

              The American culture is much more outspoken than some other cultures and that definitely can cause problems. Just because you met one boisterous tourist, doesn't mean all Americans are like that, though.

              --
              Joshua 1:9 "Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee"
              • (Score: 3, Funny) by DannyB on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:41PM

                by DannyB (5839) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:41PM (#634110) Journal

                Conveniently skipped over the second half of my post, you did.

                I read it. Had nothing to say.

                "U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt’s foreign policy: "speak softly, and carry a big stick.""

                Trump's foreign policy: speak Bigly and carry a limp stick, in your tiny hands.

                --
                People today are educated enough to repeat what they are taught but not to question what they are taught.
          • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Sulla on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:28PM

            by Sulla (5173) on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:28PM (#634408) Journal

            So almost half of the world lives on less than I tip a shitty waiter?

            --
            Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:16PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:16PM (#633857)

      Then I guess it's OK to "pool" the tips into the job-creators pocket and pay minimum wage to the staff.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:30PM (14 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:30PM (#633868) Journal

      Not a single competent waiter or waitress would ever take flat pay over minimal pay plus tips. It would be a huge pay cut.

      (ah, I almost missed it. And it's juicy, yum)

      Letting aside the "they have may sympathy", why should be this my problem as a customer/patron?

      It's not like I should act communistic towards the waiters and share my money with them because they need it, only to let the owner of the restaurant to go capitalistic on their ass and pay them the minimum possible.

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by sjames on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:04PM (4 children)

        by sjames (2882) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:04PM (#633894) Journal

        If I give a tip, it is because I believe the waitstaff served me well. It is between me and them. If the owner pockets it, it is theft as far as I'm concerned.

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:32PM (1 child)

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:32PM (#633926) Journal

          (yeah, naaah, mate! I do agree with your point, but I deliberately put it this way to emphasize the cognitive dissonance in TMB's argumentation. I know well his battle cry of "Socialism is theft" and yet in this instance he shows quite a decent understanding of waiter's positions, to the point of sacrificing the interest of him as a customer)

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:23PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:23PM (#633956)

            Because wait staff are so ubiquitous that even he understands the situation. I'm waiting for his mental gymnastics routine where he defines everything in such a way that he doesn't need to budge his world view. Ironically such feats of delusion are what he accuses of anyone who went to college.

            Damn ivory towers with no bearing on the real world!!! /s

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @04:16AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @04:16AM (#634286)

          If I give a tip, it is because I believe the waitstaff served me well. It is between me and them. If the owner pockets it, it is theft as far as I'm concerned.

          Which is why I am now in the habit of leaving my tips in cash. If the waitstaff want to share their tip with the owner, that is entirely up to them. If, on the other hand, they would rather not, I'm completely OK with that. Considering that Uncle Sam has put them in this rather awkward position, I'm OK with them not letting the government know about it either. That is between them and their conscience.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @06:23AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @06:23AM (#634318)

            The wait staff are not my employees. Tips are not "earned" in that sense of the word.

            Tips are reciprocal gifts for exceeding minimal performance. Might as well tax Christmas gifts too.

            A wait staff cheated of their tips will likely not present their employer in a very good light.

            I am quite sure the wait staff view confiscation of tips about like a businessman sees employees walking out with silverware and dishes to sell at the swap meet.

            I am not part of a wait staff, but it even pisses ME off to see wait staff taxed on TIPS.

      • (Score: 5, Interesting) by melikamp on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:16PM (8 children)

        by melikamp (1886) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:16PM (#634043) Journal

        Not a single competent waiter or waitress would ever take flat pay over minimal pay plus tips. It would be a huge pay cut.

        Letting aside the "they have may sympathy", why should be this my problem as a customer/patron?

        It won't be. TMB really got himself into a jam on this one, he does not seem to know fuck-nothing about the restaurant industry, or else talking out of his ass on purpose.

        His statement appears to ring true because in the current socio-economic environment in USA, within the service industry specifically, most wait staff and other tip junkies would lose money if they tried to advance their career in a way that removes the tips from the table. For example, a lot of them resist being made a manager, because a restaurant manager is often paid less at the end of the day than an experienced server raking up the tips. A lot of them also get the gambler's excitement from an occasional show-biz tip, and look down on positions without the roulette wheel.

        But considered more carefully, TMB's opinion is horseshit. One can google [this puppy is ready for genericide] tipless restaurants and see that there's a wave, as of late, especially on the east coast, to go tipless, and the crest of this wave is at the high end, where most stellar servers actually know what they want. My wife spent most of her life in the industry, working almost every position from waitress to manager to event planner, ending her waiting career at Hungry Mother in Cambridge, where Celtics routinely brought their dates. So both statistically and anecdotally, most people can figure out that even here in USA, many (not all) excellent servers absolutely loath tips. Hungry Mother wasn't tipless, but they pooled everything, which most servers consider a blessing in a successful restaurant, because, SURPRISE! servers don't like to grovel, they don't like to be humiliated, they don't like it when some duchebag dangles a $40 tip before their nose, expecting them to flirt, or when 3 trophy hags drink $600 worth of sparkles over 4 hours and leave ZERO tip, and they POSITIVELY HATE to plan their finances without ever knowing how much money they will make.

        But then, TMB is not like most people, he's got his own information sources and ways to arrive to conclusions :)

        • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:29PM (7 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:29PM (#634051)

          I've often thought that TMB shows bad logic but sometimes took into account that we may just not see eye to eye.
          His logic is clearly selfish in nature. He remembers his time as a tip earner and could hardly give a fuck about customer service.
          The level of service that I get ordering a cup of ramen with no tip in japan is equal to the level of service that I would get at a top restaurant or hotel in the USA. Furthermore I dislike tip chasing staff, when you talk to me like a gameshow host, flirt with me, and laugh hysterically at every fucking thing I say. Yeah only EVER experienced that in tipping countries. Not to mention that flirty hosts foster an environment where customers feel entitled to sexually harass the help.

          • (Score: 3, Interesting) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:12PM (5 children)

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:12PM (#634066) Journal

            when you talk to me like a gameshow host, flirt with me, and laugh hysterically at every fucking thing I say

            Say... what? Is this indeed what's expected from the "successful tip receiver" waiting staff in US?

            Good God, thanks for not being subjected to such a treatment; irrespective of my order status, I'd leave the place like a rocket after the first 3 minutes. I can't stand pushy waiters interrupting me every 3 minutes to ask if I'm alright or... stuff.
            You wait for me to signal you that I need your services and, if you want a tip, I'll have your attention in a very short time; a nod as "I saw you, coming ASAP" will buy you 1-2 minutes of my patience when you are engaged in some other things, but certainly not 1-2 minutes flirting with another customer.

            Even the minor matter of having my glass refilled, I like my wine glass stay emptied until I'm feeling like having another one; and then I'm perfectly capable of filling it myself, as much as I think is necessary and when I think is time. If you, the waiter, insist filling it immediately after I emptied it, I'll start to think you just can't wait to see me done and be gone; guess how much I'll be willing to tip you?

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:44PM (2 children)

              by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:44PM (#634086) Journal

              Say... what? Is this indeed what's expected from the "successful tip receiver" waiting staff in US?

              Not in my experience.

              What I expect is a friendly person who smiles at me and makes me feel welcome to eat at that place. Unlike your experience, I do expect wait staff to check in with me anytime my glass is empty - I expect them to be observant and ask me if I want a refill or not. If I say no I expect them to remember that choice. I expect wait staff to check if I need anything about five minutes after food delivery (was there a condiment I needed), and anytime I try to catch their eye - which with good staff does not happen because they've already anticipated my need. I'll put down extra money if they check in after I've placed my order and before food delivery or after post-delivery check and pre-final visit before check.

              I don't expect, nor want, conversation, flirtation, or anything other than a respectful attitude, pleasant demeanor, and awareness of my needs as a customer before I have to ask. I ate at Bubba Gump Shrimp Company at Navy Pier and at some point (don't remember when,) the waitress came over and played Forrest Gump trivia with us - it was interesting, but not really expected and did keep me from visiting with those I was dining with. But it was also clearly something the management expected staff to do, I believe.

              Conversely, anyone who acted the way you've described without my saying so (doesn't check in unless I ask) would have a diminished tip. I can count the number of times I haven't tipped in the last ten years on one hand - I think it is three out of

              --
              This sig for rent.
              • (Score: 4, Insightful) by melikamp on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:38PM (1 child)

                by melikamp (1886) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:38PM (#634182) Journal

                You people, c0lo & #6553, you are both right! Every patron has slightly different expectations about table servce, and the job of a competent server is to fulfil those expectations without sacrificing the overall quality of service for everyone else. When I took an issue with TMB's little fart-rant, it was the specific suggestion that a competent waiter won't go tipless because of a pay cut. On the contrary, competent waiters are fighting tooth-and-nail, as we type here, over some of the most desired positions in tipless restaurants in New York and elsewhere, and I am sure that at least some of them do take this pay cut with a sigh of relief.

                Because you see, people, servers also have expectations (a novel idea for USA, but here we go). A competent high-end server, in particular, is a professional with 10+ years of experience in mind-reading and meeting your every food-related need, all while working on 100 other mini-projects around the floor. Servers like that take pride in their work, and they expect to be paid for their time, period, because they do a fucking great job day in and day out. If you don't like their personal style, or find that the experience is overpriced, you are free to go to a different restaurant, mmmok? So when you do come to their restaurant, they expect you to be polite, and they expect you to be buying food, booze, and table service, the end. They do not expect to be harrased, sexually or otherwise; they do not expect their pay to be held hostage over some random fantasy, or be conditioned by your mood. They are trying to serve you well, regardless of how much or little you expect, or how great or shitty you may feel that day, and they expect to be paid.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @11:18AM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @11:18AM (#634368)

                  they do not expect their pay to be held hostage over some random fantasy, or be conditioned by your mood.

                  This.

            • (Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Wednesday February 07 2018, @01:40AM

              by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 07 2018, @01:40AM (#634241) Journal

              Is this indeed what's expected from the "successful tip receiver" waiting staff in US?

              Depends on the class or classlessness of the establishment. A so-called "Gentlmen's club" can be expected to float at this position - right at the top of the septic tank. More generally, no. The average diner expects good wait service, maybe a smile, a little chatting possibly. The flirty waitress doesn't last very long at a nicer restaurant, really. Hooter's would be about as high as the flirts are going to feel comfortable, for any length of time. From there, they might move on to a dive (low class bar) or a strip club.

              We have some of everything. You can find the worst of the worst, in any state. And, you can find real professional wait staff in any state. It all depends on what you're looking for.

            • (Score: 3, Interesting) by canopic jug on Wednesday February 07 2018, @09:29AM

              by canopic jug (3949) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday February 07 2018, @09:29AM (#634344) Journal

              You wait for me to signal you that I need your services and, if you want a tip, I'll have your attention in a very short time; a nod as "I saw you, coming ASAP" will buy you 1-2 minutes of my patience when you are engaged in some other things, but certainly not 1-2 minutes flirting with another customer.

              We stopped visiting one pub for a while until the American waitress went away. Unlike the local wait staff she was chatty but said nothing. Unlike the local wait staff she was never around when something was needed. However, when there was clearly no need for anything, she was constantly hovering around asking how service was. Lastly, she did not fill up the beers completely. Also, the local staff were well trained professionals, having gone to vocational school. I gather in the US it is make-it-up-as-you-go-along that is the standard.

              Like many things over there, the food service industry in the US is in dire need of a rebuild. Paying proper wages, including benefits, to all staff is part of that. I don't see why as a restaurant patron I should be subsidizing the owner's dodgy practices and general stinginess. The whole thing about tipping for better service is bullshit anyway when most servers make up their mind about you before even coming to the table, creating a self-reinforcing prophesy regarding the good or bad tip they eventually get. Yes, you can game that. I have. I'd rather not, though. I'd rather just come in with my group and get the service we pay for. or just not come back next time.

              --
              Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
          • (Score: 1) by Sulla on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:37PM

            by Sulla (5173) on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:37PM (#634412) Journal

            I have never experienced that, maybe you are just a Chad. Anymore waiters seem so terrible that I will give 10% if someone actually continues to fill up my water glass.

            --
            Ceterum censeo Sinae esse delendam
    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:43PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:43PM (#633877)

      Pay your god damn employees instead of guilt-tripping your customers, dickhead.

    • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:53PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:53PM (#634024)

      The point is that the system in the US is bad and should be different. The opinions of waiters in the US were developed in the context of working within the broken system. They have developed biases that are based on getting the best they can out of a bad system, rather than implementing a better system.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:08PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:08PM (#634093)

        I'd rather cost of having servers be included in the price I'm charged along with all taxes. If a waiter isn't good enough that they deserve the money, then the owner should fire them and get somebody that is.

        Tips just make it hard for waiters to know how much they're going to make while putting them in a vulnerable position when customers behave badly.

        It's hard to understand just how much mental effort it takes deciding how much things are going to cost, unless you've lived somewhere that the price on the menu is what you pay, no more and no less.

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:18PM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:18PM (#634044)

      Not true. In the USA, the most competent waiters work at the very best restaurants where they are paid a salary and have benefits. There is no tipping at these restaurants, service is included. Restaurants like The French Laundry (Napa), Benu (SF), Alinea (Chicago), and 11 Madison Park (NYC.)

      • (Score: 2) by black6host on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:27PM

        by black6host (3827) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:27PM (#634102) Journal

        The trick is to hire good employees and value the service they provide to you, their employer. That would entail good customer service. Pay them well. What we have here though, is not a situation where the employees needs are of paramount concern, and they should be because without them you have nothing, but rather a way for large businesses to make a money grab.

        Well, guess what? Somebody is going to pay. We'll end up with lousy servers. Note: this does not include all cases, as pointed out above but for your average Friday's or Longhorn or whatever... Well, wait and see.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:19PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:19PM (#634046)

      The obvious thing here is that there is some pay level where you would not be taking a pay cut and I've always gotten the best service in countries with no tipping. I tip extremely well. Before I was married I considered 30% personal minimum tip.

      But it's just because I don't want to have to gauge your service or see your pitiful eyes or wonder if you have kids to support so I tack on roughly 30% with the absolute minimum of thought and effort possible. The restaurants should consider it a service to eliminate concerns and worries outside of eating my meal.
      I should have no responsibility to your employer other than paying the bill (Which should fucking include taxes and your wages just like much of the better world)
      I should have no responsibility to you other than to not intentionally ruin your day by being a shitty customer.

      Even the act of thinking about tips and taxes removes a great deal of value from my dining experience. I'd prefer not even to even hear about or see the bill until it gets over 50.

      How fucking hard is it to let me enjoy some food without thinking. How is it that this is so hard for managers? Really the people running restaurants must be fucking idiots to think that I'll appreciate their level of extra customer service by sending a frantic waitstaff to my table every 5 minutes to ask if I want water or some snacks with as much fake cheer as they can muster but never consider I'd just like to know my staff is getting decent compensation without having to do math on a napkin.

    • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:30PM

      by insanumingenium (4824) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @07:30PM (#634052) Journal

      If that were the case, why do I hear so many bitching about sub-minimum wages? Please make my day and double down on that declaration that every single person who is unhappy with the current system is incompetent.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:31PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @08:31PM (#634079)

      it's not even cultural, it's socio-economical.

      It would be a huge pay cut.

      *facepalm*

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:59AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @03:59AM (#634285)

      This is a US problem. If you employ wait staff you should pay them a decent wage. The tip is meant to be an extra for exceptional service - not their only income,

    • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @10:41AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @10:41AM (#634357)

      So first you claim people who don't tip are shitstains, and then you claim that wait staff in the USA makes so much more.
      If that's the case, why on earth do you give a flying fuck whether or not I tip? The staff is apparently well off anyway.

  • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:28PM (12 children)

    by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @03:28PM (#633863)
    You think there is any situation where you dine in a restaurant anywhere on earth where you are NOT paying the waiter? It's just more transparent here and you have the option to decide how well they did and show it in their tip.
    • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Immerman on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:12PM (6 children)

      by Immerman (3985) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:12PM (#633903)

      Except for the fact that repeated studies have shown that waiter performance actually has almost no impact on how much they get tipped - that's basically random. About the only thing that *does* correlate with tip amount is the patron's wealth - wealthy patron generally tip substantially lower than most.

      • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:38PM (4 children)

        by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:38PM (#633929) Journal

        wealthy patron generally tip substantially lower than most.

        A wealthy person knows that wealth is not accumulated by spending, on the contrary. Otherwise chances are that person won't stay wealthy for long.

        --
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:33PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:33PM (#633966)

          oh yeah, the wealthy are wealthy b/c they are soooo fucking smart. more like stingy sell-outs most of the time.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:36PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:36PM (#633971)

          ???

          Really? That is the excuse you want to give rich people?

          • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:48PM

            by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @05:48PM (#633982) Journal

            Excuse? It's just a hypothesis.

            --
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
        • (Score: 2) by ants_in_pants on Wednesday February 07 2018, @02:50AM

          by ants_in_pants (6665) on Wednesday February 07 2018, @02:50AM (#634262)

          A wealthy person can also afford to spend money more freely.

          A wealthy person who spends too much money becomes poor, a poor person who spends too much money becomes dead.

          --
          -Love, ants_in_pants
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:17PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:17PM (#633995)

        Not quite, repeated studies have shown that tip amount is largely based on sex of the wait staff and if they draw hearts on the receipt.

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:14PM (4 children)

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @04:14PM (#633907) Journal

      You think there is any situation where you dine in a restaurant anywhere on earth where you are NOT paying the waiter?

      If I'm going into a restaurant, I'm going there to have a good time. I don't see how making me taking care of your business falls on the line of "making the patron feel welcome" - I certainly see it as a hassle.

      It's just more transparent here and you have the option to decide how well they did and show it in their tip.

      Oh, but I am tipping the waiting staff now and them, to show my real appreciation for exceptional services in case such services are provided.
      Which means I don't see the waiter until the moment I actually need her and s/he's immediately there when I need it. This is why s/he is called "waiter" - from the archaic "to be in readiness for; be reserved for;" - which means s/he's waiting for me and I'm not waiting.
      And if and only if that person manages to do the job to my satisfaction, then I expect this level of attention would detract her/him from other things requiring attention, so a compensation is in order. But even then it is a service rendered to me by her/him, thus the payment is between me and her/him and no other's stinking business.
      Anything less is just an "as expected level of service" that I expect any decent restaurant should provide - so no tipping.

      The only exception to the above (and that happens more often than not) is when the waiting staff and the owner are in the same family - I do enjoy eating in small/family businesses, 5-6 tables tops, honest good food, nothing fancy - happens sometime the cook is delivering some dishes her/himself if the others are busy with something else. Italian trattorias and Greek tavernes manage to hit the spot for me. Occasionally, it happens in country-side pubs as well. In such cases, the tip goes with the bill for the overall experience.

       

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 3, Interesting) by pipedwho on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:08PM

        by pipedwho (2032) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:08PM (#634092)

        Completely agree with this.

        In Australia, the tip generally goes to more than just the wait staff, so the restaurant experience comes off more like a team effort.

        It pisses me off no end when I'm in some small establishment in the USA and it feels like a union demarkation dispute will erupt if I ask the 'wrong' staff member for something because 'my' waiter was temporarily busy tending to someone else at the time. Then there's the over-the-top saccharine sweet friendliness that some put on right after bowling over a bell boy and pushing past patrons at 'not their' table to get to you and your table. Not a team effort from the restaurant, and not an overall great experience in my book. Some places do ok, but my best experiences come from places that specifically state not to tip, but then again, those places are already at the higher end of things. The worst experiences I've had were at high end places where the wait staff 'expect' a big huge tip based on a percentage of the premium prices on the menu even if you tip the minimum 15% or whatever it is they expect.

      • (Score: 2) by EvilSS on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:16PM (1 child)

        by EvilSS (1456) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @09:16PM (#634095)
        Well the other option is to get rid of tips, raise all prices ~30% across the board (because now you have to cover the tip income plus additional employment taxes), and hope that the wait staff see all of that increase.
        • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:15PM

          by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @11:15PM (#634169) Journal

          Like most of this world does.

          --
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
      • (Score: 2) by Gaaark on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:14PM

        by Gaaark (41) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @10:14PM (#634129) Journal

        Yes! The best food (and service) is usually from the small mom and pop restaurants.

        This one place I went to had the BEST 'spaghetti/meat' sauce with just the right amount of chili heat! They, I left tips for because I always had over-service, lol

        Owner died, (wife retired) and now we got McDoo-Doos. Fecking hell.

        --
        --- Please remind me if I haven't been civil to you: I'm channeling MDC. ---Gaaark 2.0 ---
  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:08PM (2 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:08PM (#633990)

    The issue in the US is that tipped workers have a minimum wage that's less than half of the regular minimum wage. Restaurant owners started pulling the trick of underpaying their servers and demanding their customers make up the difference with tips back in the 1930's, and have never gone back because it would cut into their profit margins to do so and the US government didn't make them change their ways.

    I mean, a system where we just paid waitstaff a living wage and adjusted the prices accordingly? While also avoiding making communications majors do long division at the table? Why that would be pure madness!

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    • (Score: 2) by c0lo on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:28PM

      by c0lo (156) Subscriber Badge on Tuesday February 06 2018, @06:28PM (#634005) Journal

      I knew about the causes (and understood them**), thanks for the historical details, I wasn't aware that the "custom" is that old (and thus much harder to normalize).

      ** with the - maybe unnecessary - note that "understanding != acceptance"

      --
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @10:55AM

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2018, @10:55AM (#634362)

      $2.13 vs $7.25
      So, less than a third.

      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]