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posted by Fnord666 on Monday February 26 2018, @12:12AM   Printer-friendly
from the shocking-news dept.

Car companies, starting with Volvo last summer, have laid out plans to electrify entire lineups of vehicles. But the fine print makes it clear that the coming decade and beyond will focus not just on massive battery packs powering electric motors, but also on adding a little extra juice to the venerable internal combustion engine.

Increasingly, that juice will arrive in the form of new electrical systems built to a 48-volt standard, instead of the 12-volt systems that have dominated since the 1950s. Simpler than Prius-type drivetrains and less expensive than Tesla-scale battery power, the new electrical architecture both satisfies the demands of cars made more power hungry by their gadget load and enables the use of lower-cost hybrid drive systems.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/business/electric-cars-48-volts.html


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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Grishnakh on Monday February 26 2018, @03:52AM (6 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 26 2018, @03:52AM (#643739)

    Exactly my point.

    The only downside with lighting for moving to 48V is that you wouldn't be able to use off-the-shelf parts already in your supply chain; you'd have to get your suppliers to make new 48V parts instead. But once that's done, it's no big deal. Automakers have to get lots of parts redesigned or modified for new generations of cars anyway. If you're doing a fresh design of, for instance, an LED/DRL headlight assembly, it's no more work to make it 48V than 12V. Honestly I'm surprised they haven't bothered with this sooner, though the fairly recent move to changing everything to LEDs might have changed the equation (making new standards for incandescent bulbs isn't so easy; with LEDs you don't care because they're all built-in): with 48V, you can reduce the wiring size significantly, saving some weight and also saving a lot of copper, which is expensive. They stand to save a bunch of money per car just by reducing copper wiring, and probably more by reducing motor sizes (again, reducing copper).

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  • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Monday February 26 2018, @06:16AM (5 children)

    by fyngyrz (6567) on Monday February 26 2018, @06:16AM (#643786) Journal

    They can also move the power supplies out of the LEDs; one common source for various E and I needs would be much more cost effective. No reason 12v devices wouldn't still be in the loop, either – the current crop of entertainment systems, for instance.

    The important stuff here, as you note, is the motors. Between those and environmental control systems, there's the potential serious efficiency gain.

    • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday February 26 2018, @09:17PM (4 children)

      by Grishnakh (2831) on Monday February 26 2018, @09:17PM (#644204)

      Why would you need 12V for infotainment? Infotainment systems are electronic, so they run on something like 3.3V, not 12V, and perhaps some other odd voltage for the LCD panel, and probably something else odd (and higher than 12V) for the audio amplifiers. When a new generation of cars with 48V buses is designed, the new generation of infotainment will simply be designed to use a 48V supply. The audio amplifier engineers will probably be happy about that too.

      • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday February 27 2018, @02:21PM (3 children)

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Tuesday February 27 2018, @02:21PM (#644618) Journal

        Why would you need 12V for infotainment?

        Two reasons: That's the tech that's typical, so it's painless; and power amplifiers like 12v. They would like 48v even better, but again, that tends to obsolete a bunch of already existing power amp design.

        When a new generation of cars with 48V buses is designed, the new generation of infotainment will simply be designed to use a 48V supply. The audio amplifier engineers will probably be happy about that too.

        Perhaps. Or perhaps 48v will fall flat on its face, like 6v power systems have. We will see.

        • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday February 27 2018, @04:54PM (2 children)

          by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday February 27 2018, @04:54PM (#644671)

          That's the tech that's typical, so it's painless

          No, it's not. No infotainment system runs on 12V internally; modern electronics all run at 3.3V these days. And there's no such thing as "typical" in infotainment, as there's nothing that's off-the-shelf: every system is custom-designed for that automaker. With a new generation of cars using a new 48V bus and a new generation of infotainment systems, they'll just design the infotainment to run from a 48V external supply.

          and power amplifiers like 12v

          No, they don't. Every decent audio amp used in cars uses a DC-to-DC converter to boost the supply voltage.

          that tends to obsolete a bunch of already existing power amp design.

          No, it just means they need to slightly redesign their DC-DC converter. Power amps in cars are, much like infotainment systems, made custom for that vehicle to an extent. Toyota doesn't go to Best Buy and purchase Kenwood amps off the shelf.

          Or perhaps 48v will fall flat on its face, like 6v power systems have.

          Huh? 6V systems did no such thing; they were somewhat common in cars ages ago. They came *before* the push to standardize on 12V, so "falling flat on their face" doesn't make any sense in this context, as 6V was never pushed as a successor. There *was* a push a couple decades ago to move to 36V, and that one *did* fall flat on its face, unfortunately.

          But you're right, it's quite possible. After all, with electric cars looking like they're going to be the norm in a decade, those have battery voltages well above 48V (I think the LEAF is at 380V??). However, there's a lot of motors and electronics in cars these days and it's getting worse, so there's some gains to be made in efficiency with a higher voltage bus for things other than the traction motor, and you don't want to run your window motors and infotainment at 380V (you could, but it's much more dangerous and there's new issues with insulation due to the high voltage).

          • (Score: 2) by fyngyrz on Tuesday February 27 2018, @05:50PM (1 child)

            by fyngyrz (6567) on Tuesday February 27 2018, @05:50PM (#644706) Journal

            No, it's not. No infotainment system runs on 12V internally; modern electronics all run at 3.3V these days.

            ...converted from the 12v using the existing internal design. If the vehicle produces a usable 12v (well, 12.6...14.5 as per usual) supply, then a redesign is not required. And entertainment systems are just the tip of the iceberg. GPSs, camera systems, ham radio gear, CBs, IR systems, light bars... you get the idea. They're all 12v. Likely there will be significant pressure to keep them that way, or everyone has to redesign. Redesign costs money. Not to mention that the new 48v-only vehicle won't be compatible with 99.99% of what's out there from the start, and that's hardly a selling point.

            Every decent audio amp used in cars uses a DC-to-DC converter to boost the supply voltage.

            ...which again, is part of the existing internal design. Redesign costs money. New PCBs; new RF shielding or alteration to same; new FCC testing; new performance testing and validation; component validation for the extreme temperature ranges under operating conditions; component warehousing, acquisition, and assembly automation or training; complete rejiggering of manufacturing costs; marketing; etc. I did this stuff for a living for decades. There's no "it's easy" in this domain.

            That's not even counting the car installer, etc., who might try to keep both kinds of systems in stock for the two types of power systems; that's quite an economic blow. I'm thinking your 48v devices are going to be a special order, assuming they want to deal with them at all.

            6V systems did no such thing; they were somewhat common in cars ages ago.

            ...and now they are not. Or IOW, just as I said, 6v vehicle systems have fallen on their collective face. This is, of course, because higher voltages make for higher efficiencies for most major clients of vehicular power consumption. Which is why 48v might get in there; but I think it's still very likely that these 48v systems will generate 12-ish volts to support the huge constellation of power clients that currently require that as an input supply; and given that they do provide such a supply, there's no motivation to change anything else very quickly.

            • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday February 27 2018, @07:18PM

              by Grishnakh (2831) on Tuesday February 27 2018, @07:18PM (#644742)

              And entertainment systems are just the tip of the iceberg. GPSs, camera systems, ham radio gear, CBs, IR systems, light bars... you get the idea. They're all 12v.

              Ham radios, CDs, and light bars are not standard equipment on any passenger car. Automakers don't design their cars for aftermarket equipment. The most you're going to see is 48V-to-12V converters for lighter sockets, since people do use accessories that plug into those and will demand working lighter sockets in new vehicles. Ham radios, I believe, are too high-power to run off standard lighter sockets (which can only supply 5A/60W in many cars), so those will need some additional converter ($$). But automakers really don't care about the puny number of hams on the road. And from what I've seen of hams, they always drive shitty old cars anyway, not brand-new ones. The only people who still use CB these days are truckers.

              Redesign costs money.

              They're redesigning many things with every new vehicle generation anyway. They don't keep using the same infotainment system across 3 generations.

              ...which again, is part of the existing internal design. Redesign costs money. New PCBs; new RF shielding or alteration to same; new FCC testing; new performance testing and validation; component validation for the extreme temperature ranges under operating conditions; component warehousing, acquisition, and assembly automation or training; complete rejiggering of manufacturing costs; marketing; etc. I did this stuff for a living for decades.

              And yet you seem to think they're going to keep using the same electronics design for 20 years. I don't care what you did for decades, I know full well that vehicle electronics routinely change with every vehicle generation, which is 3-6 years.

              That's not even counting the car installer, etc., who might try to keep both kinds of systems in stock for the two types of power systems; that's quite an economic blow. I'm thinking your 48v devices are going to be a special order, assuming they want to deal with them at all.

              Automakers do not care what "installers" do, or what anyone in the aftermarket does, for the most part. They sure as hell don't design their cars for audio enthusiasts who intend to install custom stereos. The aftermarket goes wherever the automakers go; if they switch to 48V systems, the aftermarket will be forced to follow.

              Or IOW, just as I said, 6v vehicle systems have fallen on their collective face.

              I'm sorry, this is just plain silly. That's like claiming that the landline telephone "fell on its face". "Fell on its face" means that something was a flop: it was attempted, but failed, such as a Hollywood movie that costs $100M and then nets $5M. Landline phones did not fail; they were enormously successful for many, many decades, until recent years where cellphones have become very popular. From what I've read, 6V cars were somewhat common at one time long ago, they simply became obsolete, just like 4-wheel drum brakes and manual-crank windows.