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posted by martyb on Thursday March 01 2018, @08:51PM   Printer-friendly
from the Betteridge-says-"No" dept.

According to Molly Worthen's article in The New York Times, The Misguided Drive to Measure 'Learning Outcomes':

"[...] In 2018, more and more university administrators want campuswide, quantifiable data that reveal what skills students are learning. Their desire has fed a bureaucratic behemoth known as learning outcomes assessment. This elaborate, expensive, supposedly data-driven analysis seeks to translate the subtleties of the classroom into PowerPoint slides packed with statistics — in the hope of deflecting the charge that students pay too much for degrees that mean too little. [...]"

But apparently, there is little to show for tons of money and effort expended to gather data on what students are really learning or adapting curricula to their actual needs.

Mr. Erik Gilbert, a professor of history at Arkansas State University, who has criticized the methods, said to the author: 'Maybe all your students have full-time jobs, but that's something you can't fix, even though that's really the core problem. Instead, you're expected to find some small problem, like students don't understand historical chronology, so you might add a reading to address that. You're supposed to make something up every semester, then write up a narrative.'

As Frank Furedi, an emeritus professor of sociology at the University of Kent, told the author about the situation in Britain: 'It's a bit like the old Soviet Union. You speak two languages. You do a performance for the sake of the auditors, but in reality, you carry on.'

As the author puts it: 'If we describe college courses as mainly delivery mechanisms for skills to please a future employer [...] We end up using the language of the capitalist marketplace and speak to our students as customers rather than fellow thinkers. They deserve better. [...] Producing thoughtful, talented graduates is not a matter of focusing on market-ready skills. It's about giving students an opportunity that most of them will never have again in their lives: the chance for serious exploration of complicated intellectual problems, the gift of time in an institution where curiosity and discovery are the source of meaning.'

A lengthy read, but worthwhile. Are we preparing current students better than in the past or are we simply siphoning money out of them? Yesteryear, a degree was a sure bet to a better life, nowadays, it doesn't mean as much. Are the education methods lacking or is the surplus of graduates to blame for useless degrees?


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  • (Score: 1, Disagree) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @09:54PM (32 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @09:54PM (#646029)

    Because it is a very complicated task to measure teacher performance, and so far all the measures to do so have made education worse.

    Let the principles, vice principles, and superintendents do their jobs without adding a bunch of stupid overhead that adds negative value.
    Don't speak about what you don't know.

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  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @10:32PM (16 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @10:32PM (#646049)

    If you just "let the principles, vice principles, and superintendents do their jobs" then some students will get really horrible teachers.

    Consider what my brother saw in DC when Teach for America sent him there to teach math. Race played a huge and deeply disturbing role. The principal and most of the teachers were really racist. My brother wouldn't even have gotten the job except that the district insisted that the available person (my brother) be hired.

    My brother, a white person, goes in for the interview. The principal won't even make eye contact. The principal rejects my brother. Since the district overrode that, my brother is hired anyway and...

    The school turns out to be really disfunctional. All non-math teachers are black. None of the math teachers are accepted as being black, despite one being an immigrant from Africa. (he doesn't count???) The math teachers were looked upon with suspicion... there was a sort of general hostility toward the math department.

    So now, picture that principal determining teacher performance. How is he going to rate the teachers? Might the math department be gutted, with the students just missing out or maybe being "taught" by an unqualified substitute that the racist principal likes better?

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @10:57PM (15 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @10:57PM (#646064)

      For some reason I doubt your little anecdote. Try again.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:10PM (14 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:10PM (#646073)

        The principle reason for doubt is that he does not seem to be aware of the difference between "principle" and "Principal". Could have a Masters in Educational Administration.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:51PM (9 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:51PM (#646096)

          My brother was the teacher, not me. I assume he can spell well, though he isn't an English teacher... not that I believe for one moment that the English teachers at that school could do a decent job at English.

          The place was considered the 2nd worst high school in DC.

          It's horrifyingly real. I suppose I can actually "try again" though! My first grade teacher was almost never there. See, her husband was some sort of leader official in the teacher's union, so she was untouchable. Unwavering well-defined standards solve that problem.

          • (Score: 2, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:36AM (8 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:36AM (#646119)

            "Teach for America" are not actual teachers, they are scab college students, kind of the Uber of education, cooked up in the dim recesses of the brains of Republicans like Ol' Betsy. Not saying anything bad about your brother, other than he may have had no idea of what he was talking about. Yup, it terrible that teachers need unions, and have to worry about job security, instead of being an honored and revered profession in American society! No wonder Americans are so dumb.

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:56AM (7 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:56AM (#646135)

              He got a degree in computer science. He graduated in a recession and got the crazy idea to join the army, so he did that for a while. He got out, took the classes to become a teacher, and wound up going to DC.

              Once you complete your stint in Teach for America, you are a teacher with mobility. Unlike normal state-certified teachers, you can freely move around the country and teach in any state.

              I'd love it if he were a scab. Unions, particularly public sector unions, fuck up our world. I'm pretty sure he still had to pay the corrupt union their private tax.

              The stint in the army turned out to be useful. A student brazenly swiped my brother's wallet and attempted to run off with it, taking the wallet right out of my brother's pocket as he stood in front of the class teaching geometry. (did I mention the school sucks?) The army skills were put to use. :-)

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:31AM (6 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:31AM (#646250)

                Degree in "Computer Science"? Yeah, right, the guy is a total scab, knows nothing, not even how to code, and he thinks he is competent to teach? This is why the whole "Teach for America" was a total Republican scam from the git go. Only really stupid Republican Fucks think that someone with military indoctrination (NOT education, that is not what the military does) thinks that a Vet, or a National Guard type, as was proposed by Governeor Scott (idiot)Walker, could substitute for an actual teacher, in an actual educational situation. Yeah, right, anybody could teach, just like Cameron Diaz in "Bad Teacher". You know, you pukes really piss me off, as an actual educator. Try to do my job for one day. You will fail, and fail badly. It will be apparent to the students, and to you, you bastard ignoramous Republican idiot of infinite unknowing!

                I take back what I said about your brother. He was a white racist dick. And he did not help his students at all, due to his racist attitude. So thanks for nothing, both to you, you AC of infinite ignorance, and your poor brother, who at least has the dignity, often accorded these "Teach for America" scabs, of remaining anonymous. At least the damage he has done will not be made apparent here. Poor bastard! I hope he found a real profession, after hanging with the "coloreds".

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @02:02PM (4 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @02:02PM (#646353)

                  He was not racist. Note the "was". Teaching at that school changed him permanently. He grew up mostly apart from blacks, and hadn't realized just how different they are.

                  Nobody could help those students. They were put in a geometry class, but they couldn't do basic arithmetic. (so all those previous non-military teachers had failed) They would wander from room to room and loudly shout across the room during class. The school just does teenage babysitting while waiting for the kids to head off to prison.

                  You couldn't teach them. Without a military background, you're just a pussy that'd get your shit beat out.

                  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @06:17PM (3 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @06:17PM (#646515)

                    Heh, here we see the AC's story fall to pieces. Yup, sounds like military dumbass goes in with good intentions but completely unprepared for inner city school conditions. They are horrifying, but here we see the symptoms of cultural warfare brought to light. Blame Nixon, blame all the republicunts who disenfranchised black communities. Blame the business people who won't hire black people except for the worst jobs.

                    The poverty cycle is a nasty piece of work, the farther your drop into poverty the less likely you are to work your way out of it. There are tons of kids at inner city schools who actively get worse grades than they should because being smart gets the shit kicked out of you.

                    Hell, I was a white kid in suburbia and still experienced issues because I was smart. Throw in some real gang members and a ton of wannabes? Ugh, life would suck.

                    Anyway, teaching is hard and standardized tests and performance reviews add another level of stress to a VERY stressful job. I left teaching because I could earn more money for less stress, and no summer vacation isn't a walk in the park. Due to low pay many teachers work over the summer anyway, and besides until you're on year 5-10 you use the summers to improve your lessons. Teachers get the major shaft in the US.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @11:35PM

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @11:35PM (#646704)

                      Nothing changes that fact that the principal hated non-black people, oddly including in that category an actual immigrant from Africa.

                      Never mind the students and my brother, and whatever qualifications they may have or lack. The principal is not about to fairly do performance evaluations of teachers because he is a racist.

                      Oh, BTW, every horrible black-majority hellhole city in the USA is run by democrats. I'm sure the democrats like to blame republicans, but that doesn't fit the evidence.

                    • (Score: 2) by bzipitidoo on Saturday March 03 2018, @12:07AM (1 child)

                      by bzipitidoo (4388) on Saturday March 03 2018, @12:07AM (#646721) Journal

                      Don't misunderestimate what people learn in the military. Like, they might figure out that the whole thing is a giant scam, designed to keep their idle hands occupied (or dead, that works too), busy trying to suppress nations whose main sin was to have large oil reserves.

                      Do you recall one time General and Presidential candidate Wesley Clark? You might think the military brass is all pro 2nd amendment jar heads, gung ho to smite terrorists and Muslims, eager to go down in history as military geniuses ranking up there with Sun Tzu, Hannibal of Carthage, Alexander the Great, Caesar, Napoleon, Robert E. Lee, and George Patton. (Note that Hannibal, Lee, and Napoleon were all on the losing side, and Al rather conveniently died early.) And therefore they are all in lockstep with the Republicans. Nope. Some are, of course. But lots of them realize they're tools being wielded by politicians who have an angle which is typically money of course. General Clark ran as a Democrat.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 03 2018, @04:50AM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 03 2018, @04:50AM (#646843)

                        Your comment about generals being "on the losing side" and therefore not worthy of adulation is off the mark.
                        At least in the cases of Hannibal and Lee, the deck was stacked against them from the beginning; the opposing side was far more numerous and better supplied.
                        They still punched far above their weight militarily. It is worth studying them for that reason.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:03PM

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:03PM (#646547)

                  Why is "computer science" in scare quotes?

                  I dunno why the other AC is still going, but it sounds like you're the troll here.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @01:26AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @01:26AM (#646147)

          If you read more carefully, you would see that he spelled "principal" correctly, and it is only misspelled in the quote that he copied. You can chastise him for failing to add [sic], I guess.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:33AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:33AM (#646251)

            He did not fulfill the rubric! Fail! Kill the trangressor! Exterminate! #Exterminate! Sound like my Catholic School teachers, regarding spelling mistakes. Principally.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @03:58AM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @03:58AM (#646201)

          So, I looked it up to be sure. I got it right. (leaving the quote as originally misspelled)

          It turns out that I wouldn't make a mistake because I pronounce the words as written. They are not quite homophones in my accent, though they are very close. The "a" has an indistinct vowel sound, and the "e" is silent. I can make a "pl" sound without inserting a vowel.

          I can speak all sort of things just fine. I distinguish an ending of "tch" from "ch". I distinguish an ending of "in" from "ing". I can say words like "corrects" with the last 3 letters being distinct.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:36AM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:36AM (#646253)

            I got it right. (leaving the quote as originally misspelled)

            But, you are still an ass. All us grammar teachers flunk you for bad attitude.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:20PM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:20PM (#646076)

    It is very complicated task to measure the performance of an engineer and so far all the measures to do so have made building bridges and other large structures worse. Let engineer associations test themselves without adding a bunch of stupid overhead that adds negative value (like durability, safety, etc.). Same with doctors and other professionals. Don't speak about what you don't know.

    Good luck with that.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:33PM (7 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:33PM (#646080)

      Let engineer associations test themselves without adding a bunch of stupid overhead that adds negative value (like durability, safety, etc.). Same with doctors and other professionals. Don't speak about what you don't know.

      Good luck with that.

      Actually, this is what all professions do. You must not be one of them. Professions are made up of practitioners who possess specialized expertise, say on engineering or law, or medicine or education. So when it comes to establishing standards of practice, the only people with the knowledge to set standards and evaluate practitioners are the professionals themselves. Who do you think writes building codes and safety regulations? Who do you think runs the Medical schools?

              So to claim that common people could comprehend what teachers do, let alone evaluate it, is insulting, because most common people are stupid and have no idea what they are talking about. They should be engaged in politics, where their lack of expertise will not be noticeable. And administrators: These are traitors of the worst sort, if they were teachers and left to profession to become managers, and now use their knowledge to serve the enemies of education. Sort of like doctors, or psychologists, who use their professional knowledge to assist torture programs, or assist with experiments in the death camps.

      • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:11AM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:11AM (#646105)

        Who do you think writes building codes and safety regulations? Who do you think runs the Medical schools?

        Lawyers and administrators or MBAs, respectively.

        • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:40AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:40AM (#646125)

          Wrong. Dead wrong. In the case of safety, literally dead wrong. The engineers write the codes, the lawyers try to find ways around them, the administrators try to ignore them. Doctors run medicals schools! The only one who can teach someone to be a doctor, is another doctor. Legislators do no have the expertise to formulate regulations like this, so they should defer to the experts. If they do not, this is a sign of corruption. BTW, MBAs are not professionals, business is not a profession, since it requires no professional expertise. Just look at Trump! No expertise at all, that one!

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:26AM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:26AM (#646116)

        While professionals do have input, building codes and health standards are definitively *not* set or enforced by associations or their membership. Same for many other professional fields. That would kinda be like having the fox guard the hen-house. Or teachers thinking their profession shouldn't have measurable standards. Professional associations like to think they make all their own rules but at the end of the day it is the government that allows associations to self-govern and only up to a point.

        So to claim that common people could comprehend what teachers do, let alone evaluate it, is insulting, because most common people are stupid and have no idea what they are talking about.

        Yeah, I'm just going to leave that here as a reminder of your thought process.

        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:42AM

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:42AM (#646126)

          You are one of them, eh? I have seen your type before! An unruly student, a midget mighty buzzard, kind of kid we used to be allowed to paddle. Well, no educational excellence for you!!

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Friday March 02 2018, @03:28AM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 02 2018, @03:28AM (#646190) Journal

          So, what you are saying is, that the NEC doesn't employ any electricians? There are no electricians in the staff? Interesting . . . so, basically, a bunch of lawyers, politicians, and consumer advocates, and maybe a couple community organizers, decide how electrical work should be done? That explains why electrical boxes are usually finished in paisly, nature, and abstract designs. And, don't forget the floral prints!! Soon, we should see cartoon prints on those boxes from the Simpsons, and other popular shows.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:41AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @07:41AM (#646256)

            Shut up, Runaway, as a lowly technican, you are required to follow code. You have no idea how it is arrived at. And that is as it should be, since you have no education, and are not too bright, and you obviously do not know when to object to your superiors, or you would not have served in the USA Navy. Bastards! I mean, shelling innocent children, in Veracruz?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @03:00PM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @03:00PM (#646392)

              Lowlifes like yourself shouldn't be entitled to an opinion.

  • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:25PM (5 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:25PM (#646078)

    Let the principles, vice principles, and superintendents do their jobs without adding a bunch of stupid overhead that adds negative value.

    To heck with the scientific method! We don't need no stinking testing or measurement!

    • (Score: 4, Insightful) by HiThere on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:38PM (4 children)

      by HiThere (866) Subscriber Badge on Thursday March 01 2018, @11:38PM (#646084) Journal

      For your argument to work you need to validate your measurement methods. And then run experiments to see if your measurements validate your hypothesis. This has never even been attempted in US public education, and I doubt it's been attempted anywhere. So don't claim these "measurements" make things scientific. That claim is garbage.

      It is also an observed fact that excessive testing tends to warp the material of the class to fit the preconceptions of the designers of the test...who frequently don't know anything about what should be taught, and what can be expected to be learned, or what variations should be expected. So I also deny your argument at the very first step, as in my observation the fact of excessive testing itself makes the classes less competent. Two or three times a year is reasonable. More often becomes increasingly unreasonable. And there's a lot of variation between classes of students as well as between teachers.

      --
      Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:38AM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @12:38AM (#646123)

        For your argument to work you need to validate your measurement methods. And then run experiments to see if your measurements validate your hypothesis.

        Yes, IIRC these things are part of the scientific method along with measurement. Much more scientific than saying "We don't do it because a) it is difficult, and b) we just don't do it". Imagine you have to choose a school for your child. Would you rather see how the schools and teachers are ranked for competency and learning outcomes or would you rather take a crap-shoot based on warm fuzzy feelings?

        • (Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Friday March 02 2018, @03:40AM (2 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 02 2018, @03:40AM (#646194) Journal

          Funny thing about schools. Way back in prehistoric times, like the 1960's, people knew which school systems were better than others. Students who graduated from New Castle High School were generally superior to students who graduated from Mohawk, or Shenango high schools. Meanwhile, Union Township's schools were regarded as superior even to New Castle.

          How in hell did people know all of that? Well - it's pretty obvious that graduates from one school found better jobs than students from another school. Students from one school were far more likely to win scholarships, and to be accepted into college, than students from other schools.

          TFS clearly states that attempts to measure all of this common knowledge have failed. Maybe we should go back to allowing school districts to run themselves? Then, we might be able to study those districts that do well, learn some lessons from them, and finally to teach those methods to the failing school districts?

          The halfwits at the state capital don't have degrees in education. And, even if some do, they chose to go to the capital - so they don't have ten classes of successful students to use as evidence.

          Give teachers the freedom they need to teach. Stop listening to the morons at the capital. Get government out of education - all government ever does is to fuck things up.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @10:17AM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 02 2018, @10:17AM (#646304)

            How in hell did people know all of that?

            Well, shit, Runaways, they was white schools, that's how you could tell! Have you been so SJWed that you forgot that?