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Turkey, positioned geopgraphically on the edge of Europe and politically inside of NATO, has been heading in a troubling direction for some time in regards to speech. Crackdowns on dissent and even open speech are increasing and Internet communications are the specific focus of some of the recent actions. Coming up is legislation intended to curb the Internet (WWW) in ways similar to how television and radio have already been limited:
Having already brought Turkey's mainstream media to heel, and made considerable headway in rolling back Turkish democracy, the government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has set its sights on a seemingly innocuous target: a satellite television preacher named Adnan Oktar.
[...] "It is just about control," said Kerem Altiparmak, a human rights and media lawyer. "Considering what has been happening in Turkey, I have no doubt this is a hegemonic power, controlling newspapers, TV and the judiciary, that is now out to control the [I]nternet sector."
All the restrictions are made that much easier through increased use of and dependence on centralized services like Facebook by the remaining opposition.
Source : Erdogan's Next Target as He Restricts Turkey's Democracy: The Internet
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Grishnakh on Monday March 05 2018, @07:28PM (16 children)
Yep, and this wasn't really a problem for anyone else until he invaded Poland. The problem was when leaders of other nations turned into spineless losers, and it's the same here. Let the Turks get the government they deserve and that they voted for, but don't let this expand outside the country's borders.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday March 05 2018, @07:48PM
I should also add that it's not a bad idea to intervene militarily if some minority population is being harmed. But here again, other nations need to grow a spine.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by canopic jug on Monday March 05 2018, @08:19PM
but don't let this expand outside the country's borders.
That ship has long since sailed.
Afrin [bbc.com] is just one of several incidents where Turkey has already spilled over its borders, also in this century. Yet again it appears to be ethnic cleansing [nytimes.com].
A far as the human traffickers [cnn.com] go, Turkey has allowed them to operate with impunity and sending wave after wave into international waters to either drown or be picked up [spectator.co.uk] by European countries. Yet, the threat to open the land routes into Europe [independent.co.uk] are being made, too.
Money is not free speech. Elections should not be auctions.
(Score: 3, Informative) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 05 2018, @08:22PM (8 children)
Apart from anybody the Nazis didn't like of course. [wikipedia.org] If you take the time to look at the Wiki article, you will note Dachau was opened in 1933, pretty much as soon as the Nazis won power.
If they accused someone of a crime, the Special Courts [wikipedia.org] made sure a conviction was obtained.
Let's not pretend the Nazis were the good guys until they invaded Poland OK?
Your point about Western leaders failing to hold Erdogan to account is a good one though. The problem is he has been until now a reliable ally of the US (in particular) so has been allowed to get away with whatever he wants.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Monday March 05 2018, @08:31PM (7 children)
I did mention oppression of minority groups in my follow-on post, which I would have put in the post you replied to if this site had a proper "edit" functionality (i.e., I should be able to edit a post within 30 seconds of posting it; I realized my omission within 5 seconds on this one).
As for them being "good guys", I never said that, just that the people of Germany were getting what they voted for. Remember, every nation gets the government it deserves. A bad government in a nation is a direct effect of bad choices by the people of that nation in almost every instance (exceptions for things like invasions and occupations of course).
(Score: 3, Interesting) by PartTimeZombie on Monday March 05 2018, @10:15PM (2 children)
Fair enough.
I am not sure I'm convinced by the whole "people get the government they deserve" argument though, propaganda being as pervasive as it is.
I recently argued with someone online about the awful propaganda TV commercials the largest company in my country is playing at the moment, but he just thought it was a perfectly normal "PR campaign", as if there is a difference.
As far as the Nazis go, they received 30% or so of the vote in the 1933 elections, then used violence, intimidation and bribery to gain total power, so maybe 30% of Germans got what they deserved, the rest got what they were given.
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 06 2018, @01:34AM (1 child)
When some minority group uses violence to gain total power, it's the responsibility of the other people to use violence if necessary to prevent this or take it back.
The problem with people who disagree with the "people get the government they deserve" quote is that they never really have another answer to it. If the people of a nation aren't to blame for its government, or responsible for it, then who is? (Again, barring extreme situations like occupation by a foreign power with superior strength; e.g., if the US decides to invade and occupy St. Kitts and Nevis (population 46,000) and set up a new government there, there's not much those people can do about it, and they certainly can't be blamed for it.)
(Score: 2) by dry on Wednesday March 07 2018, @04:44AM
People can be mistaken, vote in a total bullshitter and then figure it out. Unluckily it usually takes about 4 years before you can vote them out, if your lucky and get the chance. The worst won't give the people a chance to vote them out or remove them in other ways, at least easily.
Many countries also have some basic laws written out as a Constitution that takes more then 50%+1 of the people who voted to change. Other countries can see their basic rights disappear really quick.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday March 06 2018, @05:56AM (3 children)
Or, you could read what you have written, think about it, and pause before pressing the enter key. Just sayin'.
(Score: 2) by maxwell demon on Tuesday March 06 2018, @07:37AM (1 child)
What's the point in pausing before you start a new line?
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
(Score: 2) by janrinok on Tuesday March 06 2018, @01:50PM
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 06 2018, @05:31PM
Do you refuse to edit anything you ever write, even though you're on a computer? Perhaps you should apply that logic to everything you do on a computer: once written, you can never change it. If you write some code and it has a bug, you're not allowed to use an editor to modify the code, you just have to live with it.
The whole reason computers (and "word processors" - specialized computers) took over from typewriters back in the 80s was because it was easy to edit documents. Are you saying this is a mistake?
Maybe you should disable the "back" button on your phone too while you're at it, and disable the backspace key on your keyboard.
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Monday March 05 2018, @11:52PM (3 children)
Well, except for the foreigners, the gays, the Jews, the communists and anyone else he either didn't like or wanted to scapegoat who lived in Germany.
Prison, executions, beatings, confiscation of property, legalized discrimination, forced relocations, etc., don't count as "problems" for you?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Tuesday March 06 2018, @01:18AM (2 children)
Did you not read my follow-on reply to that? I don't know how many times I have to bitch about this around here, but if this site would let me edit my posts, we wouldn't have this problem.
Anyway, prison, executions, beatings, etc. are generally internal problems. Do you think they're something a country should be invaded over? If so, then you must necessarily believe the US, China, and Russia should all be invaded, and I don't know who's going to take on that task. You can't force a country to treat its people well without resorting to extreme tactics usually, which normally are only done when things are really completely out of hand, and I can't think of many times when this was actually done. The world didn't do anything about the Nazi death camps until the Nazis forced them to by invading a bunch of countries including Russia; the world didn't do anything at all about the genocide in Rwanda; NATO dropped some bombs during the Balkans War but didn't commit any ground troops; the world didn't do anything about Saddam gassing Kurds and/or Shias; really, when has anyone done anything really significant about another country brutalizing its own people, other than holding some trials after all the damage is done? And how about Turkey today? They've disappeared tons of people and turned into a dictatorship, yet Europe is happy to be allied with them and NATO keeps them as a full member. What exactly do you think should be done there? And what about Myanmar? There's genocide going on there too; should we be invading?
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday March 06 2018, @01:51AM
No. I didn't see it until after I posted this comment. I also didn't see the other poster's (who made essentially the same comment I did) comment until after I finished mine.
I wasn't trying to beat a dead horse, it was just poor timing. If that happens again (at least with me), I won't be offended if you just ignore me.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by NotSanguine on Tuesday March 06 2018, @01:59AM
I didn't say that I thought Germany (or anyone else) should be invaded for that sort of thing, although certainly there should be harsh words, perhaps embargoes/sanctions and other diplomatic pressure from those with a conscience.
But you explicitly said that there were "no problems" before the invasion of Poland. Leaving Czechoslovakia aside, I'd say that those were definitely problems. Are you of the opinion that whatever a government does to its citizens is just fine? Or were you just imprecise?
If not, can I assume your response to hearing about that sort of thing would be something like "Boy howdy! That's great! How many did you kill this week? Good for you!"?
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Tuesday March 06 2018, @08:49AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves