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posted by martyb on Tuesday March 06 2018, @10:12PM   Printer-friendly
from the you're-not-just-bored:-the-wall-clock-IS-slow dept.

Electric clocks on continental Europe that are steered by the frequency of the power system are running slow by up to 5 minutes since mid-January according to a news release from the European Network of Transmission System Operators for Electricity ('entsoe'). The transmission system operators (TSOs) will set up a compensation program to correct the time in the future. ​

Many electric clocks rely on the transmission system frequency to provide a source that minimises long-term drift. Quartz crystals have good short term stability, but dreadful long term stability, so plant and machinery that requires power to be turned on or off at a specific time each day without maintenance over a long period historically used clocks slaved to the power-system frequency, which is kept long-term stable by the system operators to prevent problems in power generation and transmission across national and supra-national grids - for example, attempting to switch supplies to generators that are not synchronised to the grid frequency can severely damage the generator.

It is normal for transmission system operators to allow the frequency to drop slightly at periods of high demand, thus slowing clocks, but usually, the frequency is increased during periods of low demand to ensure the long-term average frequency remains stable.


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  • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tangomargarine on Wednesday March 07 2018, @05:31PM (7 children)

    by tangomargarine (667) on Wednesday March 07 2018, @05:31PM (#649085)

    Honestly, I really wish people who aren't electrical engineers would just keep their mouths shut when these discussions come up.

    The couple times I've tried to look up voltages and amps and ohms and stuff on Wikipedia have given me massive headaches, so I'll just stick to my programming and leave the "fucking magnets how do they work" stuff to you EE types :)

    IIRC the joke back in college was that EE was the hardest degree, at least mathwise. "You start out as a EE major, then you realize it's too hard so you switch to Mechanical. Then you realize ME is too hard, so..."

    EE -> ME -> SE -> CS -> IT -> Business -> Liberal Arts

    --
    "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
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  • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Wednesday March 07 2018, @06:03PM (6 children)

    by Grishnakh (2831) on Wednesday March 07 2018, @06:03PM (#649098)

    EE isn't as hard, mathwise, as a real math degree. It's possible to get through without having nearly the level of math knowledge that a true math major gets. But it does seem to be the hardest engineering degree. But I do think that a good Physics degree is probably harder. You should probably put physics at the head of that list :-) Also, a good CS degree (note the "good" here, a lot of colleges have crap CS degree programs) should be very challenging with math too, since in the older/better schools CS is really an outgrowth of mathematics.

    But yeah, while there's some great discussion from others who obviously are EEs with much better knowledge than me about power systems (my specialty was digital electronics and then I moved into software in my career), I guess I am getting a little tired of getting responses from non-EEs whose knowledge of AC vs. DC hasn't been updated since the days of the "Current Wars".

    • (Score: 2) by Geezer on Wednesday March 07 2018, @11:03PM

      by Geezer (511) on Wednesday March 07 2018, @11:03PM (#649216)

      At the last place I worked we had EE's, ME's, and WE's....Wikipedia Engineers.

    • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Thursday March 08 2018, @01:50AM (4 children)

      by RS3 (6367) on Thursday March 08 2018, @01:50AM (#649273)

      I'm not sure if you can say one study or major is absolutely harder. Some people have inborn talent, smarts, something that makes them good at one thing, but not so good at another.

      Yeah, and to be fair, all of this stuff is changing so fast that it's hard to know what's right or wrong. It's easy to say that an active electronic (semiconductors) power supply is better than an iron / copper transformer, but semiconductors are much more electrically fragile. Of course they could be designed to be more robust, withstand shock, vibration, temperature extremes, electrical shorts and surges, but most things are designed to be a cheap as possible. Also you have to consider availability, flexibility, adjustability, reliability; tradeoffs in design, size, shape, weight, heat, etc.

      • (Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:26PM (1 child)

        by tangomargarine (667) on Thursday March 08 2018, @04:26PM (#649529)

        s/harder/more mathy/ if you like.

        I don't think most people enjoy doing really advanced math. Other than math majors, but obviously they're crazy ;)

        --
        "Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday March 09 2018, @12:23AM

          by RS3 (6367) on Friday March 09 2018, @12:23AM (#649787)

          Other than math majors, but obviously they're crazy ;)

          Truer words were never spoken! What blew me away in EE school were things like Maxwell's Equations, Fourier / LaPlace transforms & analysis, Bessel functions, etc., that these nuts did this stuff long before humans had the electronic circuits that these equations describe. And hardware hackers hacked all kinds of stuff together, not having a clue about the maths. I'll use math to get an answer, but if I had all the time in the world I'm quite certain I would not come up with the RS3 sequence, or the RS3 simultaneous manifold equations. RS3 transforms, maybe. :-}

      • (Score: 2) by Grishnakh on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:06PM (1 child)

        by Grishnakh (2831) on Thursday March 08 2018, @05:06PM (#649557)

        It's easy to say that an active electronic (semiconductors) power supply is better than an iron / copper transformer, but semiconductors are much more electrically fragile. Of course they could be designed to be more robust, withstand shock, vibration, temperature extremes, electrical shorts and surges, but most things are designed to be a cheap as possible. Also you have to consider availability, flexibility, adjustability, reliability; tradeoffs in design, size, shape, weight, heat, etc.

        Right now, with current technology, active switching power supplies *are* better than simple iron/copper transformers. Fragility isn't an issue; large transformers have their disadvantages too. As you said, things can be designed to be more robust, resist shock, etc. For shock and vibration, for example, lower mass is an asset; a heavy transformer has much more inertia. Anyway, things may designed to be economical, but they're also designed to conform to standards, and also to be robust enough to last a decently long time so the mfgr doesn't get a warranty claim. The proof is in the pudding: who's still using large transformers? Almost everything has switched to the switchers. And a lot of devices, at least, are lasting longer than they ever did.

        • (Score: 2) by RS3 on Friday March 09 2018, @12:04AM

          by RS3 (6367) on Friday March 09 2018, @12:04AM (#649782)

          Right now, with current technology,

          I see what you did right there: "current"!

          Right now, with current technology, active switching power supplies *are* better than simple iron/copper transformers.

          We can agree to disagree. I'll restate it my way: active switching power supplies *can be* better than simple iron/copper transformers.

          I have no stomach for these endless online flame wars. You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. I don't like sweeping generalizations, and the use of the word "better" always catches my attention in that regard. I don't think there is a 100% clear absolute all categories winner. There are so many factors that go into a design, as I've stated elsewhere, that you have to consider all of the tradeoffs. In my personal experience I've found, and sometimes repaired, many many dozens of failed switching supplies (including electronic florescent ballasts). The only iron/copper transformers I can remember failing are recently made ones with thermal fuses embedded in the windings, which had failed (and they failed because the diode bridge on the secondary had shorted). I like semiconductors- been designing and building with them since, well, very long time. I just don't like the design compromises I find (Vceo too low, etc.)

          Iron/copper mass can be a big problem due to the huge increase in unnecessary shipping roughness. I've repaired a couple of things (guitar amps, etc.) with badly bent chassis, transformer torn out of its screws, wires pulled out, etc.