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Technology giants face European 'digital tax' blow
Big technology firms face paying more tax under plans announced by the European Commission. It said companies with significant online revenues should pay a 3% tax on turnover for various online services, bringing in an estimated €5bn (£4.4bn). The proposal would affect firms such as Facebook and Google with global annual revenues above €750m and taxable EU revenue above €50m.
The move follows criticism that tech giants pay too little tax in Europe. EU economics affairs commissioner Pierre Moscovici said the "current legal vacuum is creating a serious shortfall in the public revenue of our member states". He stressed it was not a move against the US or "GAFA" - the acronym for Google, Apple, Facebook and Amazon. According to the Commission, top digital firms pay an average tax rate of just 9.5% in the EU - far less than the 23.3% paid by traditional companies.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @04:08PM (35 children)
Infrastructure only makes up a small part of these countries' spending. The 9.5% or whatever is probably more than adequate for that.
Already covered through wages. It's not like the Chinese would be less "near slave", if we took away these good paying jobs after all (remember "good paying" is relative after all).
And aside from the highways, costs the state very little.
Just because they have money lying around (hypothetically, since it's accounting games), doesn't mean that a parasitic state deserves that money.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Thursday March 22 2018, @04:19PM (8 children)
> parasitic state
WTF?
Political and military stability -> military; welfare state
Worker's health -> health services (in EU at least)
R&D funding -> many technologies GAFA use had origins in a government lab or university
(Score: 0, Troll) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @04:56PM (7 children)
[...]
[...]
Apple doesn't use a bit of the first two. That's just payouts to voters. As to the R&D funding, Apple may milk EU research, but it doesn't have to. Meanwhile just because the EU is attached to this research it'll be more expensive. Order of magnitude increase in cost without a corresponding increase in research quality or quantity is typical IMHO for government-funded research, particularly for big projects like ITER.
These are examples of the parasitism I spoke of.
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:17PM (6 children)
You're talking as if Apple didn't have lots of physical stores, or thousands of EU employees in the stores and in their Irish Tax-saving and engineering headquarters.
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:01PM (5 children)
(Score: 2) by bob_super on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:17PM (4 children)
You talk as if some companies operating in a country should be exempted from paying the taxes that others do pay, just because ... ?
Abolish the business tax, sure. You now need to raise the equivalent amount money: do you raise the sales tax, or the income tax ? First hits the poor, second is seen as unfair and causes the rich to flee. Come on, it's so easy, you must have the answer that 200 countries are all looking for!
Paying tax on profits is indeed silly, because that encourages having to pay MyGAFAatCaymans LLC some exorbitant "license fees". Paying taxes on a fraction of your worldwide profits which matches the ratio of your activities in the country is a lot more fair, but it takes a lot of people to very you're not fudging numbers.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:28PM (3 children)
Who are these others? If they're businesses as well, I advocate reducing their taxes. I have no problem with 0% business taxes in the first place. Businesses are valuable, unemployed people are not.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by bob_super on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:38PM (2 children)
Dang, it's almost as if I addressed the 0% in the next paragraph, and you ignored it in your response...
(Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:46PM
Well it is khallow, he does not let facts interrupt his ideological narrative.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @07:24PM
Income tax, of course.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 22 2018, @04:21PM (10 children)
I can easily make the argument that Apple is the parasite here. Let us remember that businesses require licenses to operate. Theoretically, a business provides good to the community, or the business is denied a license. Apple is entitled to pay for expenses, and to make some profit. But - the billions they are sitting on represents far more than a reasonable profit. If a sizeable portion of those liquid assets were divided amongst those persons and businesses that made Apple what they are today, then I might defend Apple against these new taxes.
Maybe if Apple operated soup kitchens in the ghettos, I wouldn't begrudge all those liquid assets. Or, if, maybe, Apple were to pay off some mortgages for poor people. There are a lot of things Apple COULD DO to earn some trust and respect. But, they won't do any of that. Fek the stockholders. Put the money to good use, because it's criminal to sit on all that wealth to no purpose.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:05PM (9 children)
Businesses operate just fine without licenses.
And why do you think that is true?
Let us keep in mind that Apple does do the above [zendesk.com] (for example, a fair bit of change for disaster relief which includes some of the above), you just don't give them trust and respect for it.
Further, what is this trust and respect worth? Does it just mean that you'll find some other excuse for sticking it to Apple and other such companies?
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:21PM (8 children)
Sorry, I'm not a capitalist. I don't trust many companies. I owe no loyalty to any corporation. I only know what I see and hear. Apple is sitting on billions in liquid assets, that could be put to work, somehow. Even capitalists hate to see money sitting - they generally want to invest that money into something that will make more profit. Although I'm no socialist, I recognize that billions sitting in vaults are worthless, or worse. Apple could invest that money into Elon Musk and/or similar ventures. Apple could improve mankind's existence - or at least try. This is one of the reasons I like - almost admire - Musk. With Musk, a profit is necessary to stay in business, but profit isn't the end game. Musk has goals - Apple really has none.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:48PM (1 child)
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:33PM
Helps when you are able to help write that rule book (Tax Law).
Here's a game: (easy rules)
I win and you lose.
See how easy it is to say that they are playing by the same rules as everyone else? If everyone could use the same rules they are or pay off a government (Ireland we are looking at you) to change the rules in your favor. Then gee willakers we could all be living with no general services for anyone. No roads, no fire/police, no common defense, no public education but then everyone would be following the rules and that would be ok right?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:15PM (1 child)
I respect Musk for SpaceX, Tesla is overvalued and underperforming while the hyperloop is crazy town. Apple forgot that it was creatives who initially embraced their products. Mass market success has resulted in hardware line-ups that fail to preserve or expand on their historical market niche. Dr Jordan Peterson (of whom aristarchus is a huge fan) has made the point that creatives and entrepreneurs have the same personality type and exist outside the traditional hierarchies found in company structures. [youtube.com] Corporations, by their very nature, remove the risk takers and non-conformists they need to innovate. R&D is also expensive, it's easier for capitalists to allow others to take the risk; investors are suckers! [techcrunch.com]
(Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday March 22 2018, @08:53PM
If you think Tesla is overvalued now, wait until you hear about Musk's obscenely large package.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @07:17PM (3 children)
I was pretty sure he was a right of center American, so hearing him espouse an anti-capitalist view seems sort of... odd.
Are the bodysnatchers here? Did gewg steal Runaway's password as a prank?
Inquiring minds want to know!
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @07:44PM
Why? Surely you're above projecting stereotypes onto people and judging them based on your personal prejudice rather than the real nuances of their beliefs?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @09:15PM
Right of center does not always equate for every issue. I met an old conservative who thought we should save the trees and got called a goddamn communist for telling his friend to not cut down some big old trees that weren't a problem.
I don't recall runaway ever going full capitard and often he decries the corporate abuses. He is a ratherconfusing mix of things.
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Friday March 23 2018, @02:22AM
This is fairly common from my observation of him: like me, he is a straight shooter in a world of crazy hairpin turns, loop-de-loops, and the kind of upside-down corkscrew tunnels that would make Sonic the Hedgehog lose his lunch. We both stick to our principles, come hell or high water. Unlike me, he seems not to do much research or have much basic human decency, but the underlying MO is still pretty much the same. That may be why we piss one another off so much.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 3, Informative) by zocalo on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:10PM (12 children)
By happy coincidence I got my annual UK tax breakdown for 2016-2017 yesterday, so I can provide some firm data on one EU country. Note that this covers income tax and national insurance only; VAT & other duties are excluded, which seems reasonable as you'd be in serious Big Brother territory if central government could determine exactly how much VAT (sales tax) a specific individual had paid in a given tax year as they'd have to know *everything* you'd purchased. Apparently, the biggest outlay from this pot of tax for the UK is Welfare (almost 25%), followed by Health (20%) and State Pensions (13%). "Infrastructure" isn't a specific line item, but Transport, Environment and Housing/Utilities which is very roughly the same thing add up to 7.5%. My EU Budget Contribution was right down at the bottom of the list at 0.7%.
The UK Government likes to claim that everything goes into one big pot and there's no direct link between related income/outlay like (say) Vehicle Tax and road maintenance, so if that's true those percentages should more or less apply to the entire total of tax revenue collected, regardless of source. Note that other countries in the EU have radically different tax schemes and proportions of expenditure, so those numbers are highly unlikely to be representative of any other EU countries.
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @05:51PM (11 children)
(Score: 3, Insightful) by GreatAuntAnesthesia on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:18PM (10 children)
Apple doesn't benefit from healthcare? They don't care if their employees are too sick to work? They don't care if their customers are too poor to buy fruitbadged-blinkenbobs because they've been bankrupted by illness?
How much extra would they have to pay their staff for private pensions if the state wasn't providing a state pension?
(Score: 1, Disagree) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:27PM (9 children)
Yes. Not much point to the rest of your post.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @08:46PM (8 children)
And your posts almost never have a point, just screeching about taxes == theft and other capitalist apologia.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @08:48PM (7 children)
(Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @09:22PM
Nope, all the facts show that socialized healthcare is superior in every way. Only if private doctors are outlawed would be there be a downside: the rich couldn't pay for higher priority, a situation that has me crying big old salty tears.
You sir are a disingenuous hack with nothing better to do than spew your terrible ideology. The few valid complaints you have are lost in the ocean of stupid you would foist upon humanity.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday March 22 2018, @10:38PM (5 children)
Yes, as it is frequently pointed out, US has much cheaper healthcare than the EU, with better overall outcome. /s
You, sir, are a fucking moron.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @10:55PM (4 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 23 2018, @02:36AM (3 children)
Oh, you were worried about the US paying for healthcare in Ireland? You sir are STILL a fucking moron.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 23 2018, @03:45AM (2 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 23 2018, @04:40AM (1 child)
The topic was apple workers in Ireland, you said "the EU or worse, the us pay for it" so what do you expect me to think? What magic phrase didni miss here?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Friday March 23 2018, @05:58AM
Um, that was never true. The story itself is about generic online companies paying a "turnover" tax in the EU. Nothing about Apple workers in Ireland though presumably they'd be affected one way or another. In the entire discussion prior to my post, 96 comments at the time, Ireland has only been mentioned three times, including your post above. That indicates Irish Apple workers were never the topic.
My post which you quoted about was in response to the alleged advantages of public spending in health care to Apple. I pointed out that any such benefit, should it actually exist, could be better paid for by Apple than through the government channels of the EU or even worse the US (which you agreed was indeed worse). That's it. I'm not making some sophisticated tie-in to the turnover tax of the story or to Irish workers.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday March 22 2018, @06:33PM (1 child)
And aside from the highways, costs the state very little.
What does the enforcement of all those imaginary property laws they enjoy cost?
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday March 22 2018, @11:03PM
Well, let's look then. For example, of the 2015 US budget [nationalpriorities.org] of around $3.8 trillion, only $1.1 trillion is "discretionary" (the rest is interest payments and "mandatory" spending which is almost pure entitlement spending). That part contains funding for property law enforcement. So right there, we've shrunk the part of the pie that has that stuff into less than a third of the budget. From that same link, we see thin slivers for "Food and Agriculture", "Energy and Environment", and "Government" which contain most business regulation, something like $120-130 billion in total. That's 3-4% of the pie.