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From the Vox:
Many American pundits seem to firmly believe that the country stands at a precipice in which young, left-wing college students and recent graduates are the leading edge of a rising tide of illiberalism that comes in the form of “political correctness” and poses a clear and present danger to free speech and rational discourse.
[...] The alarm about student protesters, in other words, though not always mistaken about particular cases, is generally grounded in a completely mistaken view of the big-picture state of American society and public opinion, both on and off campus.
[...] Since the 1970s, the General Social Survey has posed a question about whether five hypothetical speakers should be allowed to give a speech in your community — a communist, a homosexual, an opponent of all religion, a racist, and a person who favors replacing the elected government with a military coup.
Justin Murphy of the University of Southampton in the United Kingdom aggregated trend data about all five kinds of speakers and found that public support for free expression has been generally rising
(Score: 5, Insightful) by arcz on Sunday March 25 2018, @08:34PM (41 children)
This article claims that support for free speech is rising. But the data suggests otherwise. It clearly shows that liberals, other than extreme liberals, have become less tolerant of "racist" speech.
What's more, the article conveniently omits 2016/2017 data for the category of "racist speech". It's clear that political correctness has become standard at universities because the students are not the ones in control of the policies. The teachers, administration, and faculty are overwhelmingly liberal and they are the ones that set the policies. Hence, the conclusion, that colleges are losing support for free speech, is correct.
Free speech is not free speech on some topics but not others: whatever topic receives the lowest approval rating is the correct indicator of the portion of people who actually support free speech. Hence, we can see free speech support is declining in liberals.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @09:06PM (34 children)
This is rather idiotic. There had never been nor should there ever be anything requiring people to tolerate intolerance.
This whole idea that this is somehow a leftwing phenomenon is ridiculous. Or was it the left that banned the cdc from studying gun violence and barred the teaching of sex ed?
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @09:14PM
Evidently arcz's facility with data equals his understanding of the law. Either that, or he is a racist.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @10:38PM (6 children)
"There had never been nor should there ever be anything requiring people to tolerate intolerance."
-
Why don't you go out to the far west, sit your arrogant little ass down in a cowboy bar and tell all the locals how you are not going to tolerate their attitudes.
The lesson you get shortly afterward should stay with you for a lifetime.
(Score: 0, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @10:49PM (4 children)
You mean Brownback's Brokeback Mountain Saloon in Kansas? Those fey cowboy Republicans!
(Score: 1, Redundant) by Arik on Sunday March 25 2018, @10:57PM (3 children)
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @11:22PM
Brownback's Kansas is a real place. And I am pretty sure all Kansas Cowboys are a little queer, at least. The Wheat farmers are quite strange just by their selves.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @11:59AM (1 child)
No familiarity with Annie Proulx's short story that was the basis for the movie, I take it? Ah, Wyoming!
(Score: 2) by Arik on Monday March 26 2018, @12:33PM
It means it's fiction.
If laughter is the best medicine, who are the best doctors?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @06:38PM
This is nothing how america is. Truth is I could hang out with a bunch of cowboys at a bad, have a debate of some sort and most of them would be ok with black people and at least ok with gays as long as they don't have to watch them make out.
I know this is not the impression you get from hollywood movies and whatever little else a poor guy in the middle of eastern europe knows about the USA
(Score: 5, Insightful) by khallow on Sunday March 25 2018, @11:29PM (15 children)
Except, of course, for the belief in tolerance which by itself requires such tolerance. Then again, you're just one hypocrite in a large ocean of them.
People won't be perfect and it's time to stop being part of the problem. Stop hating others because they don't meet nor will meet your ideals.
To give an example, I'd rather have my life saved by a neo-Nazi paramedic than die in the street. Even those with "intolerance" can make useful contributions to society - it's time to get out of their way. Let's stop with the 1984 bullshit, the thoughtcrime and two minute hates. We already have figured out how to live with people with different viewpoints. It's time you learned about that.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @03:13AM (14 children)
Would you rather die in the street if it was a black, gay, feminist aid giver?
(Score: 2, Touché) by khallow on Monday March 26 2018, @03:30AM (13 children)
I'm sure if I thought about it, I could come up with a really big list of people whom I wouldn't mind saving my ass.
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @06:30AM (4 children)
I've only seen jmorris and vlm stray into the occasional goose step, don't apply guilt by association. If you got sources though dot dot dot
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 26 2018, @04:06PM (3 children)
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @05:25PM (2 children)
Oh khallow, the more I see you reply to posts after misunderstanding their points the more I take pity on you. You're trying so that's good.
I was saying you AREN'T a low fat nazi and invited proof that I am wrong, you sourced yourself kinda saying you're not.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 26 2018, @10:49PM (1 child)
Sounds like everyone's happy. I'm moving on.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:17AM
Good choice.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @10:19AM (7 children)
True story. I knew someone who was in a concentration camp in WWII. In France, a Frentstalag, not a death camp, but that is not the point here. When they were being "liberated" by the Allies, quite a lot of casualties occcured, and the inmates of the camp did what they could to provide medical care to all who needed it. The person I knew was blood type matched to a young Nazi, and so hooked up for a transfusion to save his life. Unfortunately, the NaziJunger regained consciousness, looked at the transfusion line, followed it to his donor, and asked her, "Are you a Jew?" She said yes, that was why she was there in the first place. The young soldier ripped the IV out of his arm. He died.
Years later, many years later, this woman kept asking herself, "Maybe I should have lied, to save this young man's life?" Having known her, and the torment this question caused her, I now say, "Punch a Nazi in the face, before we get to situations like this. Yes, punch a Nazi in the face. More than once, if necessary." Better than some ignorant 17 year old dying out of hatred and racism, and loading it on some only slightly older girl. These alt-right idiots have no idea what they are playing with.
(Score: 1) by khallow on Monday March 26 2018, @04:00PM
How utterly stupid. I guess you never knew that there was a lot of Nazi face-punching in the 1930s. As you can see, it really helped the Nazis to become more humane and humble in the death camps.
Maybe it's time for you to be something other than an enabler of hate and violence upon which violent groups like the Nazis thrive? What say you?
Back at you.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday March 26 2018, @05:22PM (5 children)
Wow. I was half-expecting the conclusion of this story to actually have a useful lesson.
Obviously opposing Naziism is a good idea. But punching random Nazis you meet in the street isn't going to solve anything. Worst-case, you actually reinforce their belief system.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 26 2018, @07:51PM (4 children)
You have to admit, Dick Spencer isn't making a whole lotta noise these days...
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Monday March 26 2018, @08:33PM (1 child)
Not surprised to see you coming down on this side of the argument. You do so enjoy shouting at people and calling them names.
Not really sure how much Mr. Spencer is actually getting done, but he's been in the news for people cancelling his speech dates recently, so he's at least getting publicity. No such thing as bad publicity, right? Especially when we're talking about the Neo-Nazi crowd, which I'm sure are experts at tuning out criticism.
From a quick search looks like he *has* been punched in the face. Hmm.
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Monday March 26 2018, @09:01PM
Look, tango, about 18 months ago i decided i'm not going to be a "nice girl" any longer. Never in my life has being a "nice girl" ever, ever gotten me anywhere. Know what did? Take the bullying problem i had in elementary school. Know what stopped it? When, about a month into 7th grade, some of the bullies who had followed me into junior high cornered me and started a fight, *I fought back that time.* I broke one girl's nose, three of her ribs, and apparently came very close to collapsing a lung. I got suspended, but you know what i didn't get? That's right: bullied.
Most of these neo-Nazi pukes are bullies. Bullies only learn through pain. I'm usually all for taking the high road, but this is one of those cases where I think it's time we speak their language and nip this shit in the bud while we can.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Tuesday March 27 2018, @06:54AM (1 child)
He's still doing [google.com] his shtick, but the media doesn't care any more. Sad.
It's not because he somehow got outbullied.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:19AM
Not sad. More pathetic. This is exactly why we cannot have white supremacy! White people suck!
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Monday March 26 2018, @12:57AM (2 children)
A bigot having the right to say mean things about beleaguered groups is as essential to free speech as others having the right to say mean things about bigots.
Censors should reflect that suppressing speech they don't like doubles its strength. Bigotry is undone only by small acts of daily decency.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @01:05AM (1 child)
Exactly. Humans are empathic and view bigotry and oppression with outrage, cue sociopaths who lack that capacity but claim bigotry and oppression where there is none in an attempt to manipulate every one else. Keep on keeping on!
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @07:51AM
Do you realise you just described jmorris as non-human?
(Score: 2, Informative) by hemocyanin on Monday March 26 2018, @01:49AM (3 children)
The CDC was never banned from studying gun violence -- they were simply prevented from funding "studies" that were so biased, poorly designed (unless you were seeking a specific result) as to amount to advocacy. The CDC then chose to do something else rather than do proper research.
https://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=640013&sid=3f17ed0c21a4a722e296ba76842305ac#p640013 [theliberalgunclub.com]
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @02:01PM (1 child)
Bullshit. As your own god-damned link says, they had to clear it from "perceived" advocacy, which is to say that they couldn't do any gun research at all because that would be perceived as being advocacy when the results came back that guns are causing these deaths.
These sorts of lies are why we have tens of thousands of people being killed by guns every years, the suicides alone number over 30k in a typical year. And the studies necessary to demonstrate that the guns are a problem can't be done because the CDC isn't being allowed to conduct the research.
Ignorant people like you make me sick. How do you sleep at night knowing that you're part of the problem here.
Also, the studies weren't poorly designed, they were using methods from epidemiology and that pissed off the needle dicks on the right. It turns out that the biggest factor predicting whether or not somebody will die by a gun is having a gun near them. Take away the gun and it doesn't happen because it turns out that it's difficult to be killed by something that's not present.
(Score: 2) by hemocyanin on Monday March 26 2018, @03:34PM
I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but the CDC put it at 22k suicides last year. see page 33: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr66/nvsr66_06.pdf [cdc.gov] It is pretty disingenuous to use the suicide number in a conversation about how people unsafe because of firearms -- suicides are sad but not a threat and nothing in any gun control legislation is going to change that -- you need a magazine of one, it doesn't matter if the stock is wood or polymer, etc. etc.
Whether you like it or not, the CDC back then was doing advocacy research, sort of like cigarette companies looking for a particular conclusion. Actually, from the tone and misinformation in your post, I'm sure you'd be happy with such "research".
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 27 2018, @03:00AM
the cdc needs to be eradicated as the disease they are.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @03:53AM (2 children)
There had never been nor should there ever be anything requiring people to tolerate intolerance.
But we do have a law that says you cannot prohibit intolerant speech, at least in the U.S. And it is paramount that that law remains in force, exactly as written!, whether you like it or not. Censorship is evil, always. That is one of those things in this universe that just happens to be absolute, and is one thing that should never, ever be tolerated. All opinions to the contrary should be simply ignored, not given a moment's thought. Our goal should be to create an internet that cannot be controlled in the server/client fashion that cripples it today. Something where anybody can serve up whatever they want, and the people that don't like it can fuck off. Making censorship impossible would be a wonderful thing.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @02:03PM (1 child)
There is no such law on the books that says that we have to tolerate any sort of speech. We're perfectly free to boo at the speaker so loudly that they can't be heard, or to have nothing to do with them if we don't like what they're saying. Really, the closest thing to what you're saying is that the government can't throw those people in prison or prevent them equal access to government support.
But, that falls very far short of what you're suggesting.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @05:51PM
We're perfectly free to boo at the speaker so loudly that they can't be heard
No, you have no right to keep other people from hearing what is said, none at all. In regards to speech, you only have the right to turn your back and/or respond with your own speech, and the others do have a right to hear. You are claiming that they don't, so, you are obviously wrong. You have no right to intrude on them any more than they do on you. The only legitimate restriction on speech is the decibel level, nothing else, not the tone, not the content, nothing. So turn your back, throw all the verbal insults you want, but do not interfere...
(Score: 2) by pipedwho on Sunday March 25 2018, @09:21PM (1 child)
"Political correctness" stems from harassment and equal opportunity laws. Companies/schools/institutions/etc fear the legal ramifications of allowing people to behave in ways that may be deemed discriminatory or harassing to another person. If a company has a policy on its books, it makes it easier to get rid of employees/students that are not 'toeing the line'. The problem with schools, colleges and universities is they are treated like financial centres in the sense that someone above the administration in those entities can deny funding or otherwise pull the plug on their viability. So even though they may not seem like they are corporations, they seem to act like them and are beholden to the same corporate laws.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @09:41PM
Yes, but it gets worse because in the modern era not only are you out access to those things if you're not politically correct, you're also likely to be shunned by other people in a social setting if you don't have the correct views.
(Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 25 2018, @09:41PM (3 children)
I find that it is usually a good idea to check out the original aristarchus submission. Seems the eds have totally replaced not only his snark, but the relevant quotes from the fine article. For example:
So, not the case.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Monday March 26 2018, @03:45AM (1 child)
Not something to be done lightly or by those with a weak stomach. You'll usually find a steaming pile that probably should have been scraped off the editor's shoe and discarded.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28 2018, @10:23AM
Ah, but for the adventurous! Those who can step out of their own ideological bubble. For the few, the proud, the philosophers! "Open your mind, Neo!"
(Score: 3, Insightful) by janrinok on Monday March 26 2018, @07:18AM
Submissions should be balanced and unbiased. Snark, sarcasm and personal views should be in the comments following the story. The story is not the mouthpiece of the submitter, but a topic for us all to discuss. The comments is where we all have our say.
The Editor's job is to edit. Despite a long tradition suggesting the opposite is the norm, we expect the story to be read. The original submission was much too long to be printed verbatim.