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posted by martyb on Friday March 30 2018, @12:27PM   Printer-friendly
from the increasing-cost-of-living dept.

Common Dreams reports

Teachers in Oklahoma applauded the state Senate's passage of a $447 million bill to fund educators' first raise in a decade by raising taxes on oil and gas production as well as cigarettes and fuel--but warned that the plan is not enough to keep them from striking.

The proposal was approved in a 36-10 vote on Wednesday night [March 28] after weeks of speculation that teachers would stage a walkout beginning April 2 to demand salary increases as well as more funding for their overcrowded schools--where teachers are frequently forced to pay for supplies out of their own pockets.

"While this is major progress, this investment alone will not undo a decade of neglect", said Oklahoma Education Association (OEA) President Alicia Priest in a press release.[1] "Lawmakers have left funding on the table that could be used immediately to help Oklahoma students."

The mobilization by teachers in Oklahoma follows a multi-day strike in West Virginia earlier this month during which educators and school employees also occupied the state capitol to demand raises and a permanent funding solution for their health insurance program. The West Virginia strike kept the state's schools closed for nine consecutive school days and continued after lawmakers passed a one-time five percent raise, with teachers insisting that all their demands be met.

[...] "This package doesn't overcome shortfall caused by four-day weeks, overcrowded classrooms that deprive kids of the one-on-one attention they need. It's not enough", Priest said. "We must continue to push for more annual funding for our schools to reduce class size and restore more of the 28 percent of funds they cut from education over the last decade."

[1] Content is behind scripts.


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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:26PM (29 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:26PM (#660354)

    On the other hand, the countries with best education have socialist school systems. Did you know that China, Japan, Norway, Finland, and a bunch of other countries with great public school systems wipe the floor with the US in education rankings, every single time? Free market is a fine concept, for a goddamn *market*. Education, military, and infrastructure are some of those things that should be handled by the government, because the free market absolutely sucks for them.

    The problem with public schools in the US is not that they are "insulated from market forces", it's that every time a Republican gets in the office they cut funding, and then point at the terrible results. What the fuck did you expect? It's as if I kick you in the dick every time we meet, and then say to people that you're a weirdo because you keep saying that your dick hurts.

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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:36PM (24 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @01:36PM (#660359)
    • The best institutions of education in the world are private, and they are in the United States for the most part.

    • This applies to lower education as well; they produce the highest quality students, and nobody disputes that.

    • (Score: 4, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:01PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:01PM (#660361)

      The best institutions of education in the world are private, and they are in the United States for the most part.

      The verb tense is wrong. Use a near past to be correct. As the time passes, the tense will need to change to a distant pass.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM (22 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:14PM (#660367)

      With that same data, I get the exact opposite impression than you do. The rankings are averages. So please tell me, what would the US average be without those few outliers pulling you up? You're sacrificing the well being of millions of children and boasting about how it helps a small percentage of elites :/

      • (Score: 0, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (20 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:17PM (#660370)

        Roughly half of the population is below mean intelligence, and average intelligence is itself unimpressive.

        What do you expect?

        • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:45PM (8 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:45PM (#660382)

          And why is that relevant only for the US and not for any other country on the planet?

          If the average of the US is below the average of, say, Finland, but the top schools in the US are way above the top schools in Finland, what does that tell us about the rest of the US schools? How much worse are the US schools when compared to Finland, since it can't win even with those bell-curve outliers? Or maybe, somehow, in Finland only a quarter of population is below mean intelligence?

          • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (2 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:58PM (#660388)

            The Finish people, who are ridiculously homogeneous (like the Asian countries, too) have a much higher average IQ.

            We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it.

            It's a totally different situation. That's why you are confused; you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

            • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:22PM (1 child)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:22PM (#660402)

              It should be noted that the average U.S. IQ is propped up by the over-representation of very smart people who have moved to the U.S. to live, and who reproduce more very intelligent people there.

              While those smart people lift the average IQ in the U.S., they do not make any smarter the rest of America, which has huge variations in demographics. That is in contrast to Finland, where everyone is basically the same person.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM (#660453)

                Geez, you should get a doctorate in bullshitology. And users around here wonder why liberals freak out about the possibility of literal nazis existing in the US.

          • (Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:28PM (3 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:28PM (#660422)

            The Finish people are ridiculously homogeneous (like the Asian countries, too).

            The average U.S. IQ is propped up by the over-representation of very smart people who have moved to the U.S. to live, and who reproduce more very intelligent people there.

            While those smart people lift the average IQ in the U.S., they do not make any smarter the rest of America, which has huge variations in demographics. That is in contrast to Finland, where everyone is basically the same person.

            We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it. Then, to meet graduation quotas, the public American educational system is dumbed down for everyone.

            It's a totally different situation. That's why you are confused; you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

            • (Score: 5, Insightful) by aristarchus on Friday March 30 2018, @11:15PM (2 children)

              by aristarchus (2645) on Friday March 30 2018, @11:15PM (#660597) Journal

              We know who pulls down the American IQ, but nobody is allowed to say it.

              I have been saying this, for quite some time!! It is the alt-right whites that reduce the intelligence of the American population! This is why we cannot have "white supremacy", 'cause white folks be so dumb! Matt Heimbach! Cantwell the crying neo-nazi! My God, these people are dumber than dumpsters of hammers! So there, I said it, white trailer trash is what lowers the American IQ! Not surprising, since it was all the Caucasian countries that realized they could just export all the stupid to the New World, or South Africa. Stupdity=Racism, and although correlation is not causation, the correlation is pretty strong in this case!

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:37PM (1 child)

                by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:37PM (#660815)

                And those whites that stayed home aren't racist? You're full of shit. The simple fact is, people raised in diverse environments are far less likely to be racist, those who are raised in monocultures are far more likely to be. Racists exist everywhere there is an ethnic supermajority, because those people have far less opportunity to be exposed to other cultures.

                • (Score: 4, Interesting) by aristarchus on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:37PM

                  by aristarchus (2645) on Saturday March 31 2018, @06:37PM (#660917) Journal

                  The simple fact is,

                  Ah, simple facts from simple people! How do you know this is the case? Do you have any empirical evidence that this is so? Scientific evidence, even if only sociological surveys? Or are you just appealing to your own "common sense", something anyone else would recognize as prejudice.

          • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:08PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:08PM (#660593)

            If the average of the US is below the average of, say, Finland, but the top schools in the US are way above the top schools in Finland, what does that tell us about the rest of the US schools?

            Well, it tells us that US schools are very bad at teaching stats. Next question.

        • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:48PM (10 children)

          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @02:48PM (#660383)

          Different AC here. I expect that we will take care of those of us who cannot take care of themselves.

          That means when the only jobs left are wait staff and robot technicians; and not everybody can be a robot technician like me and you; and even in the post-scarcity utopia, we don't need 10 billion waiters; so that means that billions of people are going to find themselves utterly without economic value.

          Human life is important above all other concerns, especially if the reason those lives are now worthless economically is because we have machines to do everything for us. End of line.

          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:06PM (9 children)

            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:06PM (#660393)

            You've stated the following as one of your axioms: Human life is important above all other concerns.

            Well, clearly, that is not true. Otherwise it would make sense to tear through any other organism or ecosystem in the world in the pursuit of making more humans.

            And, that's not a straw man, because that's what you're implying.

            You must accept that the number of humans should be understood according to the law of supply and demand just like any other thing in the world.

            Now, this does not imply that part of the supply should be deliberately destroyed; the correct axiom (which I assume you were hoping to articulate) is this:

            • Existing persons are sacred (note, an embryo is not a person).

            That means we can't just kill the "undesirables". They should be helped to attain a dignified existence, but maybe such dignity means helping people to choose not to have 8 goddamn kids, 3 of which they cannot even afford to feed, mkay?

            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:27PM (8 children)

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:27PM (#660403)

              Otherwise it would make sense to tear through any other organism or ecosystem in the world in the pursuit of making more humans.

              I did not say making more humans is what I value above all else. I value existing lives above all else.

              Existing persons are sacred (note, an embryo is not a person).

              Agreed.

              They should be helped to attain a dignified existence, but maybe such dignity means helping people to choose not to have 8 goddamn kids, 3 of which they cannot even afford to feed, mkay?

              Absolutely. But you sure showed that straw man what-for!

              End of line stands.

              • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM (7 children)

                by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @03:54PM (#660410)

                I pointed out how that's not a straw man.

                Also, That's not the end of the line. At best, your line of reasoning is incomplete.

                It's not enough to say that existing human life (or persons) are sacred; you must conclude that there are too many humans.

                The solution isn't socialism or a Universal Basic Income, or any other kind of wealth distribution. The solution is a reduction in the human population; at the very least, governments need to stop subsidizing reproduction via the welfare state or tax breaks for children.

                Now, the question is this: How can the population be reduced humanely? All I can say is that this requires a reduction in population to be the result of each individual's reproductive choice. At most, a government may subsidize each individual's choice to take measures not to reproduce more than 2 children.

                Who might choose to forego that government benefit? Well, the wealthy might, but that's a good thing: You want the population be grown from wealthy, healthy, intelligent people.

                • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:15PM (6 children)

                  by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:15PM (#660418)

                  Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

                  Now, the question is this: How can the population be reduced humanely? All I can say is that this requires a reduction in population to be the result of each individual's reproductive choice. At most, a government may subsidize each individual's choice to take measures not to reproduce more than 2 children.

                  I would go further and say that reproduction is not needed at all to live a dignified life. When I'm in a bad mood, I might suggest mandatory sterilization, but practically speaking, removing entirely the funding for reproduction (tax breaks and taking "family size" into consideration for welfare benefits) is the best way forward.

                  I am confident that the natural instinct to reproduce will prevent humanity from going extinct without needing to redistribute wealth to fund even replacement reproduction.

                  Additionally, there are people who are economically valuable who are not able to reproduce for medical reasons. If we would get rid of the wealth redistribution the government and the insurance complex (enabled by the government and further entrenched by the ACA) engage in that massively allocates wealth for breeders who lack economic value, perhaps people who are interested in reproduction but incapable would be better able to fund medical technology that would enable them to be capable of reproduction.

                  (I hope I am still being consistent with my axiom that existing human life is valuable above all else. I would advocate for single payer healthcare. The benefits children would receive must not give benefit in any way, shape, or form to the parents, but those parents should not need an additional benefit because they'll be getting the same level of care as their children. Contraception and abortion should be provided as part of the single payer healthcare I'd propose.)

                  People who want to reproduce and have the financial capability to do so absolutely should be free to do so. As you point out, we want more people in the world who are capable of creating economic value (as evinced by sufficient wealth to support a family).

                  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:43PM (5 children)

                    by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:43PM (#660431)

                    In an orthogonal argument, I'd say that returning to Capitalism (which we've left behind long ago) would produce cheaper, higher quality health care for everyone.

                    In our discussion, I'd say that Single-Payer health care is a government subsidy of reproduction (which we've already agreed is wrongheaded); it removes the burden of caring for children, and it does so by means of wealth re-distribution.

                    State-sponsored abortion is also problematic, because there is a large number of people who consider it murder; those people should not be forced to fund what they considered to be murder.

                    To care for those children born to parents who cannot or will not take care of them adequately, there should be more robust institutions of adoption, so that kids are funneled into environments that are at least explicitly intended to do well by them.

                    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:50PM (4 children)

                      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @04:50PM (#660434)

                      State-sponsored abortion is also problematic, because there is a large number of people who consider it murder; those people should not be forced to fund what they considered to be murder.

                      Great, so I shouldn't be forced to pay for military and corporate bailouts. Tell me where do I apply to get those cancelled?

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:07PM

                        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:07PM (#660439)

                        Well, I think both the anarcho-capitalist AC (assuming that's her I've been bouncing ideas off of) and the different AC (me) have a solution for you!

                        Anarcho-capitalism provides an obvious solution, which I'm sure the other AC will be happy to detail.

                        My solution is somewhat different. In either case, it's not going to be as easy as marking something off on some paperwork somewhere. We need to exercise political authority by showing up at the polls and voting for Greens and Libertarians, plus any other party (US Taxpayers/Natural Law party?) willing to join a coalition against the D/R team.

                        Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box. The teachers in Oklahoma are using the soap box. There has been rumbling as concerns other teacher protests of making them criminally liable for continuing their protests without union support. We need to use the jury box there and the inherent right of jury nullification. We also need to use the ballot box effectively; stop voting for R/D team and start voting for political parties that represent change. Both the Greens and Libertarians are militarily isolationalist. So, this November (if you're a US citizen), head out to the ballot box and exercise political authority to stop military adventurism and corporate bailouts.

                        For people who want Trump gone and can't wait until 2020, exercise political authority at the ballot box. Maybe the D team will do it and maybe they won't. The elites want World War 3, and as long as Trump will give them World War 3, they will not remove him from office.

                        And well, keep the ammo box around, and I hope we don't need to use it. We shouldn't need to use it. (My axiom remains that human life is valuable above all else; yet men are not angels. I do not demand that one human give up her life simply because another human demands such.) The other three boxes should be sufficient in a democracy.

                      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:12PM (2 children)

                        by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:12PM (#660441)

                        Just because the State says you must pay for something doesn't make it right.

                        When you don't mind paying for something, then taxation to fund it is just the fee one pays for civilization; when you don't want to pay for something, then taxation is theft. Better, then, to find Free Market solutions for as much of society as possible.

                        That being said, with regard to the military, surely at least military defense is an indisputable purpose of government if there needs to be one. Abortion, though, is not such a clear purpose...

                        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:39PM (1 child)

                          by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:39PM (#660447)

                          Then the government needs to stop participating in executions. It doesn't make any one safer, costs ridiculous amounts of money, and makes you a hypocrite when you say you are pro life, but also pro death penalty. If one is state sanctioned murder, then surely both are.

                          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM

                            by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @05:55PM (#660452)

                            I'm not arguing in favor of State-sponsored executions.

                            However, you should know that your argument is fallacious; your argument is a false equivalence.

                            A criminal has broken a law—a rule of conduct in society—the consequence of which was decided in advance that criminal's actions.

                            A fetus has done so such thing. It's not an equivalent situation.

      • (Score: 2) by insanumingenium on Friday March 30 2018, @04:11PM

        by insanumingenium (4824) on Friday March 30 2018, @04:11PM (#660417) Journal

        Isn't that the definition of capitalism? The system works!

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Friday March 30 2018, @07:35PM (3 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday March 30 2018, @07:35PM (#660493) Journal

    On the other hand, the countries with best education have socialist school systems.

    But a lot of countries with socialist school systems, including the US, don't have that.

    Free market is a fine concept, for a goddamn *market*.

    Free market has little to do with K-12 education in the US. College level, where free market does apply, the US is far stronger than these other countries you mentioned.

    Education, military, and infrastructure are some of those things that should be handled by the government, because the free market absolutely sucks for them.

    Except, of course, when free markets are quite advantageous instead such as the US college market. That's the problem with assertions. It's great when they're true, but when they aren't...

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:18PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday March 30 2018, @11:18PM (#660598)

      Except, of course, when free markets are quite advantageous instead such as the US college market.

      The US college market is a disaster. The vast majority of colleges are little better than high schools, which themselves are merely rote memorization factories. All around the world (not just the US), we measure less important things that are simply easier to test for, which can give the illusion that we're properly educating people.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:03AM

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 31 2018, @12:03AM (#660624)

        are merely rote memorization factories.

        You keep saying this, over and over again. I wonder why that is?

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:25AM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Saturday March 31 2018, @01:25AM (#660650) Journal

        The US college market is a disaster. The vast majority of colleges are little better than high schools, which themselves are merely rote memorization factories.

        Ok, so what does the college market have to do with high schools? With the current failure of a lot of K-12 public schools, remedial education is a large part of the lower tier of colleges and community colleges. So right there, there's a lot of rote memorization because someone else, who is not part of the market, isn't doing their job.