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posted by chromas on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:37PM   Printer-friendly
from the what-is-GOOG-good-for? dept.

We had submissions from two Soylentils concerning recent employee reaction to Google's participation in the Pentagon's "Project Maven" program:

Google Workers Urge C.E.O. to Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

Submitted via IRC for fyngyrz

Thousands of Google employees, including dozens of senior engineers, have signed a letter protesting the company's involvement in a Pentagon program that uses artificial intelligence to interpret video imagery and could be used to improve the targeting of drone strikes.

The letter [pdf], which is circulating inside Google and has garnered more than 3,100 signatures, reflects a culture clash between Silicon Valley and the federal government that is likely to intensify as cutting-edge artificial intelligence is increasingly employed for military purposes.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/technology/google-letter-ceo-pentagon-project.html

Google Employees on Pentagon AI Algorithms: "Google Should Not be in the Business of War"

Thousands of Google employees have signed a letter protesting the development of "Project Maven", which would use machine learning algorithms to analyze footage from U.S. military drones:

Last month, it was announced that Google was offering its resources to the US Department of Defense for Project Maven, a research initiative to develop computer vision algorithms that can analyze drone footage. In response, more than 3,100 Google employees have signed a letter urging Google CEO Sundar Pichai to reevaluate the company's involvement, as "Google should not be in the business of war," as reported by The New York Times.

Work on Project Maven began last April, and while details on what Google is actually providing to the DOD are not clear, it is understood that it's a Pentagon research initiative for improved analysis of drone footage. In a press statement, a Google spokesperson confirmed that the company was giving the DOD access to its open-source TensorFlow software, used in machine learning applications that are capable of understanding the contents of photos.

Previously: Google vs Maven


Original Submission #1 Original Submission #2

 
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  • (Score: -1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:44PM (36 children)

    by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:44PM (#662908) Journal

    Special snowflakes think they can tell the boss how to run his business.

    Tell those snowflakes to take it up with the labor board. That should be worth a few belly laughs!

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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by Kilo110 on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:52PM (5 children)

    by Kilo110 (2853) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:52PM (#662916)

    Depends how much power those special snowflakes have. If they have enough, of course they can.

    Good engineers in silicon valley are high coveted and I'm sure they are aware of their value. Threatening to leave en masse can be a powerful threat.

    • (Score: 5, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:57PM

      by The Mighty Buzzard (18) Subscriber Badge <themightybuzzard@proton.me> on Thursday April 05 2018, @01:57PM (#662921) Homepage Journal

      Is it a threatening to leave situation or just a we're trying to tell you what to do situation though? I wouldn't think most of their staff would be willing to give up a Google job unless they had something better lined up already.

      --
      My rights don't end where your fear begins.
    • (Score: 3, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:46PM (3 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:46PM (#662941) Journal

      Indispensable, huh? What a concept. An employee whose termination would destroy the company. I suppose that could happen in a situation where all of management is utterly incompetent. Oh - wait - maybe some of the employees really are indispensable! We have many examples of incompetent management today. Let me check my Enron stocks!

      • (Score: -1, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:49PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:49PM (#662945)

        The teacher walked up in front of the classroom. "Alright, class, let's begin today's lesson." he said jubilantly. The young children were all nervous, given that it was the first day of school after a long summer break. As such, the teacher planned to show each student a close, hands-on demonstration of the subject matter so that they could comprehend it in its entirety. He walked up to a girl sitting in the front row to begin his lesson in earnest.

        The teacher reached the first student and thoroughly taught her the subject matter. After he was done with his demonstration, he walked to the next student. And then the next. And then the next. By this time, the students would begin screaming whenever he walked towards another amongst them. The most likely reason for this screaming was that they were excited about the lesson; that was the conclusion the teacher had arrived at, and the one that pleased him the most. The students' eagerness to learn both satisfied the man and made him profoundly energetic. He efficiently did his demonstration for all 26 students. The lesson had concluded just in time for the bell to ring.

        "Alright, class, the lesson is over. I hope you all understand the topic completely now. If you have any questions, you can come see me again at any time. You are dismissed." the teacher said, while wearing an angelic smile on his face. The man then removed the barricade in front of the door and departed. The students neither said anything nor moved even an inch. Silence permeated the room. Impenetrable silence.

        Several days later, 26 naked, rotting objects would be discarded into a dumpster. What was most interesting about these objects, however, was that every single one of them fully understood men's rights.

      • (Score: 3, Insightful) by tonyPick on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:17PM (1 child)

        by tonyPick (1237) on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:17PM (#662956) Homepage Journal

        Individuals no ("cemeteries are filled with people who thought the world couldn’t get along without them.")

        On the other hand even a few tens of engineers going out the door, if they're key people, can take enough institutional knowledge to be a problem for any company, and having them going out as a group to work for a direct competitor makes that impact worse. (See Waymo vs Uber for how far that can go.)

        Will the Google staff go that far? Are these key people or easily replaceable dudebrocoders? No Idea, but even Google might not be able to tell everyone to "shut up and keep typing, or else" without risk. Keeping them happy might be better for the company, but unless you've got more information on who/what they'd lose and the value of the contracts, we're all just guessing here.

        • (Score: 1, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:26PM

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:26PM (#663065)

          Or are the people threatening to leave the gender-studies employees that do little actual work?

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by TheGratefulNet on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:30PM (4 children)

    by TheGratefulNet (659) on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:30PM (#662935)

    those that walked into google, took the job and stayed there - I blame all of you 100% for the state of google, today. very evil and very powerful - TOO powerful.

    did they fool themselves about where their efforts are really going?

    not only does it sicken me that google is an ADVERTISING company (remember bewitched, that old tv show? darren was an ad-man; today he'd be a google employee or manager, if that series was re-done for the modern age). we laughed at the concept of an 'ad man' back then, but the kids, today, all flock to the FB, twitters and googles of the world. boggles the mind how they can ignore the evil sides of those places and how their 'good efforts' WILL be abused by those in power.

    they either are too young to understand what they are really helping, via proxy; or they are just lying to themselves. a certain portion fully know what they are doing and simply don't care. those will be the future leaders of the next wave of psycho companies.

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    • (Score: 4, Interesting) by JoeMerchant on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:48PM (2 children)

      by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday April 05 2018, @02:48PM (#662943)

      Advertising is a blight on societal productivity worse than lawyers.

      I'd much rather have a society without advertising, with all the effort that goes into advertising converted to paid vacation / UBI.

      --
      🌻🌻 [google.com]
      • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bob_super on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:57PM (1 child)

        by bob_super (1357) on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:57PM (#662981)

        The same way that lawyers can be a good thing when they defend the innocent, advertising has one use: actually informing people that a product/service exists.
        But the moment the mind tricks start, they should all be lined up against the Trump wall, on the shooting side.

        • (Score: 2) by JoeMerchant on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:03PM

          by JoeMerchant (3937) on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:03PM (#663056)

          Lawyers and advertisers both have their place, but they both seem to have grown like cancer far beyond anything beneficial to the host.

          --
          🌻🌻 [google.com]
    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:21PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:21PM (#662962)

      +1 "shoulders upon which we can stand" giant

  • (Score: 1, Insightful) by tftp on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:29PM (5 children)

    by tftp (806) on Thursday April 05 2018, @03:29PM (#662969) Homepage

    Google made its own bed when it publicly announced that GOOG is a liberal company and since then confirmed their position by many signals. The recent attack on shooting videos (which is a perfectly legal pastime in many countries, including the USA) is just the latest example. And now... drumroll... the same company tells their carefully selected liberal workers to turn on a dime and start helping the military. No surprise that many googlers' brains short-circuited.

    • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:38PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:38PM (#663017)

      Dunno why they didn't see it coming. Didn't they realize that being "liberal" in the USA means being a reactionary right-wing puppet of the CIA?

      Don't really care if it's black folks or white folks they hate. They're pushing segregation and identity politics as distractions from the declining conditions of the working class as a whole. If those employees want to do something to thwart the CIA and protest the beginnings of World War 3, they should raise a stink about getting progressive and independent news sources relisted on Google News.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:35PM

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:35PM (#663070)

      The recent attack on shooting videos (which is a perfectly legal pastime in many countries, including the USA) is just the latest example.

      But if attacking shooting videos is legal, what's the problem?

    • (Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @10:57PM (2 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @10:57PM (#663160)

      Google made its own bed when it publicly announced that GOOG is a liberal company and since then confirmed their position by many signals. The recent attack on shooting videos (which is a perfectly legal pastime in many countries, including the USA) is just the latest example. And now... drumroll... the same company tells their carefully selected liberal workers to turn on a dime and start helping the military. No surprise that many googlers' brains short-circuited.

      Funny how you used the word "attack". Your attempt at stoking paranoia to keep the firearms business at maximum profit. Taking away, or demonetizing, gun videos is not an attack. It is a statement that they are not going to contribute to the overabundance of firearms in the United States. Those videos still exist. They are not given a national platform via Youtube. That is it. Post them on the NRA web site, along with all the other gun paranoia crap. Thing is, you can't shoot people if there are no guns to do it. Instead the gun lobby keeps floating the alleged mental health problem. John Oliver put out a great video on that whole topic. I suggest people watch it.

      • (Score: 2) by FatPhil on Friday April 06 2018, @10:04AM

        by FatPhil (863) <pc-soylentNO@SPAMasdf.fi> on Friday April 06 2018, @10:04AM (#663361) Homepage
        > ... demonetizing, gun videos is not an attack. It is a statement ...

        Statements can be attacks. I'm anti gun-nut, and I still view the youtube move as an attack. Some attacks are better or worse justified than others. If google is pushing a liberal agenda, then this attack is perfectly consistent with that. However, the letters and threatened walk-outs objecting to supporting the MIC are also perfectly consistent with the liberal hive-mindthey've been building, google really shouldn't be surprised. It tells me that deep down they're not liberal, they just want the veneer of it. Maybe liberals are happier working unpaid overtime than conservatives?
        --
        Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
      • (Score: 1) by tftp on Monday April 09 2018, @11:51PM

        by tftp (806) on Monday April 09 2018, @11:51PM (#664743) Homepage

        An attack is an action, physical or verbal, that aims to injure an opponent. A statement is a message that conveys the opinion.

        If Google wanted to send a message, they could add a comment to each gun video: "Googlers do not like shooting sports". That would be a statement. Pulling the switch is an unwelcome action, also known as an attack.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @04:10PM (8 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @04:10PM (#662988)

    Typical older generation. Thinks that you deserve your position of authority when the fact is that you're only where you are because the previous generation retired. Because you are thusly entitled, you believe your decisions are not just the law. You believe they are moral and just.

    A corporation is run by the people on the ground, not by the executives in their ivory tower. Corporations that forget this wither and die in relatively short order - not that their executives with their golden parachutes care one little bit.

    You may have constructed a crony capitalist market where the CEO and the board of directors have all the power. But do not mistake your legislatively fabricated corporate structures for moral justification. 3000 Google employees are Google. Sundar Pichai is not Google.

    The sad thing is that soon enough, you and Pichai will soon be retired, and while the oligarchs you defended live out their final years in stolen luxury you will be wasting away in an underfunded nursing home. They don't care for you, and neither does the next generation.

    We will be dancing on your grave, taking the mantle of authority you left when you retired. We will treat you and the generations to follow us as you have taught us to: like candy wrappers to be thrown out while we suck out the juicy profits inside.

    Don't you see? We will become like you, craven and soulless, stewards of a system that chews up its young and spits them out. Just like you became the craven and soulless generations you despised in your own youth.

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:48PM (7 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:48PM (#663020) Journal

      You are just to funny. You believe your own words. Have you read no history at all? The "oligarchs" you talk about have existed from pre-history, and they will exist long after all of us here are forgotten. The oligarch changes form, from time to time. But the basics always remain the same.

      No, the 3000 employees at Google do not run Google. A handful of people who have won their positions through expertise, or luck, or subterfuge, or whatever methods run Google. You may blather on about who runs the system, but it's just meaningless noise. Shareholders, boardmembers, and CEO's collectively own, and run the company.

      Me? Defending the oligarch? You're smoking some weird shit, dude. I'm not "defending" them. I dislike them more and more as time goes on. Browse my posting history - you'll quickly learn that I despise each and every corporation that employs intrusive spying on citizens of the US, as well as citizens of the world. Defend Google? Defend the oligarch? You keep smoking that shit. Few other people here are going to buy it.

      BTW - I don't expect to retire. I fully expect to die like I've lived - in harness, and working my ass off. WTF do I want to spend a year, a decade, or more, lying around the house, with nothing to do? An empty, meaningless existence? Screw that. That shit is for some kind of snowflake, not for me.

      Requiem

      Under the wide and starry sky
      Dig the grave and let me lie.
      Glad did I live and gladly die,
      And I laid me down with a will.

      This be the verse you grave for me;
      "Here he lies where he longed to be,
      Home is the sailor, home from sea,
      And the hunter home from the hill."

      Robert Louis Stevenson

      I'll give you this much: Generation, after generation, we do tend to follow the examples of our forebears. You recognize that much. What are the alternatives, after all? Would you become the Eloi, or would you become the Morlocks? Don't like that particular story? Try The Devourer by Liu Cixin

      • (Score: 4, Insightful) by fyngyrz on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:35PM (6 children)

        by fyngyrz (6567) on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:35PM (#663039) Journal

        BTW - I don't expect to retire. I fully expect to die like I've lived - in harness, and working my ass off. WTF do I want to spend a year, a decade, or more, lying around the house, with nothing to do? An empty, meaningless existence? Screw that.

        Wow. Talk about "doing it wrong."

        If a retired person has nothing to do, that's entirely their choice, or fault – you absolutely do not need to be "in harness" to be busy and productive and happy. None of this has anything whatsoever to do with retirement. Retirement means you can freely choose what you will do within the bounds of your available resources, one of which is time, and which is now entirely yours to allocate. If you choose in such a way as to gift yourself with an "empty, meaningless existence", that's not a consequence of being retired: it's a consequence of your empty, meaningless choices.

        The only reason in the world for a retired person to spend time "lying around the house" is if they want to. You don't want to? Then don't, FFS.

        • (Score: 2) by takyon on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:00PM

          by takyon (881) <reversethis-{gro ... s} {ta} {noykat}> on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:00PM (#663053) Journal

          Volunteer work would not count as "in harness". A physically and mentally active volunteer gig could lead to you living longer [oregonstate.edu], meaning more expenses out of your retirement funds. But it would at least fulfill Runaway's desire to not live an empty, meaningless existence, perhaps moreso than working for "the Man".

          --
          [SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:06PM (4 children)

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:06PM (#663057) Journal

          Uh-huh. I've seen a fair number of people retire. Precious few of them retain any real drive in life. Not for more than five years, anyway. Most of them just grow old, and wither away.

          • (Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:31PM

            by frojack (1554) on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:31PM (#663067) Journal

            Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

            Sorry, had to be said.

            --
            No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:34PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:34PM (#663069)

            That is because you were trained like rats in a lab. Want your money pellets? Run that wheel bitch!

            So when you are no longer needed you have no clue what to do with your life because you spent all your time and energy doing the corporate bidding.

          • (Score: 2) by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:00PM (1 child)

            by All Your Lawn Are Belong To Us (6553) on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:00PM (#663103) Journal

            I've seen both sorts. Those who have no drive post-retirement do generally wither away. Those able to manufacture their own purposes in a satisfying way thrive. Everyone has the choice, though, regardless of their life circumstances - you can [almost] always find something useful to do with your life if you apply yourself.

            --
            This sig for rent.
            • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 06 2018, @01:45AM

              by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 06 2018, @01:45AM (#663225)

              One prime example is former President Jimmy Carter, he seems to have had a very interesting retirement, so far.

  • (Score: 5, Interesting) by LoRdTAW on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:19PM (7 children)

    by LoRdTAW (3755) on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:19PM (#663013) Journal

    I find it strange that you go straight for the anti-liberal/leftist stance when this isn't about that at all. I'm more worried about the military industrial complex angle. A huge public facing corporation which has collected data on everyone, has steered the development of the internet and how we communicate is now also using that same technology and information to build weapons. That is extremely scary. Just imagine if Facebook announced it was involved with a military program. I'm sure you'd be screaming bloody murder just as loudly as the so-called snowflakes.

    • (Score: 1, Offtopic) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:57PM (4 children)

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @05:57PM (#663023) Journal

      Objecting that Facefook joined the MIC? Why, exactly? I've not objected to Google joining. No one listened to complaints about Kellog, Brown & Root joining. Or Haliburton. Or, Sikorsky. It's what corporations do. They exploit, they grow large, then they join the MIC. At some point, they become "to big to fail", they privatize profit, socialize losses, on and on it goes, until they fall out of favor, and another corporation takes it's place. Hell, Microsoft joined the MIC years ago. Do you need a reminder of the US and Royal navy stories about ships running on Windows?

      I used KBR in my list of examples, because I was an employee of Brown and Root before it became KBR. As an employee, I had just about zero influence on the management of the company. No craftsman, no master craftsman, no foreman or superintendant had any more than a passing influence on even a junior manager's opinion.

      Because this site is largely populated by techies, some of us are enamored with these "engineers" who are objecting to Google being associated with the military. But, let me remind you that these engineers are just employees. They have no influence. As I pointed out in my original post, the labor board would quickly side with Google in any showdown. Employees aren't quite powerless - but their power is very unimpressive.

      That is just how things are.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:18PM (3 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:18PM (#663033)

        But, let me remind you that these engineers are just employees. They have no influence. As I pointed out in my original post, the labor board would quickly side with Google in any showdown. Employees aren't quite powerless - but their power is very unimpressive.

        If we're ignored, we can walk down the street to the next company, get a raise, and not have to worry that our work is supporting evil.

        • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:31PM

          by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:31PM (#663037) Journal

          not have to worry that our work is supporting evil.

          Yeah - good luck with that. Presuming that you are what you appear to claim - a Google employee - I salute your idealism, and your willingness to stand up and be counted. That latter trait is far to rare these days. But, so long as you work for someone else - anyone else - you will be exploited for whatever purpose the employer deems appropriate.

          Go ahead, be counted. But I'm pretty certain how the count will go.

        • (Score: 2) by frojack on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:38PM (1 child)

          by frojack (1554) on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:38PM (#663041) Journal

          we can walk down the street to the next company,

          Maybe once, or a few times. Then you quickly get the reputation as a trouble maker, unreliable, and become un-hire-able.
          Then you start your own company. With like minded people. And you soon find out they (and you) are impossible to work with.

          You think nobody checks references any more?

          --
          No, you are mistaken. I've always had this sig.
          • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:08PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:08PM (#663109)

            Maybe once, or a few times. Then you quickly get the reputation as a trouble maker, unreliable, and become un-hire-able.

            Gotta pick your battles. If I felt so strongly that working for Google had turned into working for the evil empire, I would look for another job at a company that I found more congenial. The market is good right now, and I can afford to have principles.

    • (Score: 2) by corey on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:53PM (1 child)

      by corey (2202) on Thursday April 05 2018, @09:53PM (#663121)

      Maybe I'm wrong but as I have lived through the internet age, Goodle didn't 'steer' the internet.

      The issue isn't that Google will be building weapons, rather that it play a part in improving their accuracy. I keep hearing about innocents being killed in US attacks in the ME, maybe Google employees could see this as a way to save these lives? By doing this protesting, they won't affect the number of bombs dropped.

      • (Score: 2) by LoRdTAW on Friday April 06 2018, @07:47PM

        by LoRdTAW (3755) on Friday April 06 2018, @07:47PM (#663528) Journal

        They did own Boston Dynamics which started building robots for the military. Everyone thought it was scary Google was working with the military on robots. Okay so they sold them off. Now they're using this for supposed "good" by improving accuracy. Accuracy improvement means they can now plan more attacks with greater precision as they have reduced collateral damage. So google is making it easier to kill more unwanted people. You have to take the good with the bad.

  • (Score: 5, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:31PM (1 child)

    by DeathMonkey (1380) on Thursday April 05 2018, @06:31PM (#663036) Journal

    Special snowflakes think they can tell the boss how to run his business.

    These snowflakes did:

    West Virginia Raises Teachers’ Pay to End Statewide Strike [nytimes.com]

    • (Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:09PM

      by Runaway1956 (2926) Subscriber Badge on Thursday April 05 2018, @07:09PM (#663059) Journal

      Fair enough. Do Google employees have a union to back them? Maybe the "International IT Engineer's Union"?