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French president challenges 'inward-looking nationalist selfishness' in Europe:
Emmanuel Macron has outlined his vision for the future of the European Union in Strasbourg. The 40-year-old, who secured the French Presidency in May on a pro-EU platform amid a populist surge in the bloc, delivered his highly anticipated speech to over 700 MEPs in the European Parliament on Tuesday.
Macron challenged "inward-looking nationalist selfishness" amid populist sentiment in the bloc and pushed for a more united and reinvigorated Europe. "Nationalism will lead Europe into the abyss. We see authoritarianism rising all around us," he said. "The response should not be authoritarian democracy but the authority of democracy."
Macron also sought to tackle the "poisoned debate" on migration, proposing the creation of a European programme that could subsidise local authorities which host and integrate refugees.
In a speech which touched on a range of issues, Macron recommended that copyright law be tightened to protect artists' "genius" and reiterated his support for tougher environmental legislation.
Meanwhile, Macron wants to "reform" Islam:
Speaking alongside the flag-draped coffin of a police officer killed in a terrorist attack in southern France, President Emmanuel Macron last month lay blame on "underground Islamism" and those who "indoctrinate on our soil and corrupt daily." The attack added further urgency to a project already in the works: Macron has embarked on a controversial quest to change Islam in France — with the goal of integration but also preventing radicalization.
He has said that in the coming months he will announce "a blueprint for the whole organization" of Islam. And those trying to anticipate what that will look like are turning their attention to Hakim El Karoui, a leading voice on how Islamic traditions fit within French culture.
It's hard to miss that the man who appears to have Macron's ear on this most sensitive of subjects cuts a similar figure. Like the president, El Karoui is an ex-Rothschild investment banker with an elite social pedigree who favors well-tailored suits, crisp white shirts and the lofty province of big ideas. The latest of those ideas is this: that the best way to integrate Islam within French society is to promote a version of the religion "practiced in peace by believers who will not have the need to loudly proclaim their faith."
Also at BBC.
(Score: 4, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:54AM (80 children)
You can leave any other major religion. You can argue over fundamental tenets of the religion. You can fork off your own sect. If you do any of that, you can tell others to come with you and they can do so.
Try any of that with Islam, and you die. Islam has a built-in immune system that will stop you, namely an instruction for all moslems to kill you.
Thus the less violent people keep their mouths shut. They go along with the violence.
This is not to say that wanting the violence is at all uncommon. Those sorts of beliefs are, depending on how exactly you ask the question, found in about a quarter of the moslems found in western society. That meme about picking candy from a bowl with a single poisoned one is way off. It isn't just 1. It's a quarter of them. The only reason we don't see all those people fighting is that moslems are not unusually industrious; like the rest of us most would rather relax and have fun. Given an easy way to kill us, a quarter of them absolutely would do it.
(Score: 5, Informative) by takyon on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:07AM (11 children)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_wars_of_religion [wikipedia.org]
The Thirty Years' War wrapped up in 1648. If Islam is about 600 years newer than Christianity, we could predict an end to Islamic religious turmoil by about the year 2250. That seems reasonable.
[SIG] 10/28/2017: Soylent Upgrade v14 [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 3, Informative) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:31AM (10 children)
Seems reasonable? And, tell us - what does reason have to do with religion? Your basic presumption, that Islam is comparable to Christianity, is flawed, and flawed badly. Christians kill people DESPITE the basic tenets of Christianity. Islam kills people BECAUSE it is a basic tenet of Islam.
(Score: 2, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:29AM (3 children)
Only a fucking Polack, with a bad case of resentment towards the Eastern Orthodox Church, could say such a thing, and not immediately be drugged and dragged, in drag, down to the lower levers of Hell, where he would have to get all gay married, to a transsexual. Get back to spreading your masters dis-info, Runaway, like how the chimerical attack on the Polish radio station never happened, and Stalin never signed a non-aggression pact with Richard Spencer that handed Poland over to the Swabians. Oh, the depths of perfidy you have probed, Runaway! If I were you, I would pray devoutly for one of two things: That there is no God, or that She does not hate liars. Now go back and tell Horowitz and Gellar that you have failed at your assigned mission, you incompetent uneducated hillbilly.
(Score: 1, Flamebait) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:11PM (2 children)
We can always count on Ari to bring the faggotry into the discussion. I suppose there are "Good Greeks" and "Bad Greeks". Those people here at Soylent who have identified as Greek seem mostly good. But, you, Aristarchus, are very special indeed. You can never leave the faggotry behind.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by aristarchus on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:12PM (1 child)
Just trying to play upon your fears, Runaway, like the Islamophobes seem to have done. Seems to be working. It's about you, Runaway, not about me!
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Monday April 23 2018, @03:35AM
I swear sometimes I read little snippets of conversation like this thread above... and really feel like I have started reading the wrong chapter of a book I am halfway through.
It's like a little microcosm of the internet as a whole with left and right, discussions ranging from scientific, through to utterly asinine, going from comedy gold to text-book-esque data. Oh, and there's the odd bunch just chasing butterflies through the field where everyone else has gathered.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by PiMuNu on Thursday April 19 2018, @09:19AM (5 children)
Did you not read the old testament?
(Score: 4, Insightful) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday April 19 2018, @10:49AM (4 children)
Standard religious approach is to say that latter accepted writings supersede previous ones. In Christianity that means you have to throw out most all of the violence and even the negative emotions that might cause violence. In Islam it means you have to throw out getting along with people stuff and become a murderous bastard.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 3, Insightful) by DeathMonkey on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:36PM (3 children)
Standard religious approach is to say that latter accepted writings supersede previous ones.
The actual standard is to pick and chose whichever fits your predisposition. Ever notice how the ant-gay Christians only have quotes from the old testament?
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:22PM
Now there is the REAL threat! Army ants, and fire and brimstone ants! Ever notice there is only one queen in the whole colony? Insect minds set on only one thing! Exterminate! Exterminate! I just hope we can find enough stairs.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:30PM (1 child)
Jesus had a lot of bigger problems to deal with than homosexuality. Don't remember him saying much of anything about it, so yeah, most of the quotes would be from the OT.
(Score: 2) by Fluffeh on Monday April 23 2018, @03:41AM
I would also argue that the folks around in the times of the ancient history also had much more important things to worry about than whether Amy was bumping uglies with Lisa and whether John was boofing Joe. In fact I would say the further back you went in history, the less important it becomes? Surely as life gets harder due to less technology and less knowledge, the orientation of those around you is even less important?
(Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:36AM (67 children)
Here's the thing: There's actually a precedent for Islam as one of the most progressive forces on Earth. The Abbasid Caliphate, at least nominally in charge of the Muslim world for 5 centuries, established and kept funded the House of Wisdom in its capital city of Baghdad, which was the site many key scientific advances that we still rely on today (e.g. "al jabr", which you probably learned in grade school). They were also a fairly lenient government at the time, and it was legal to be Christian or Jewish within the territory they controlled. And the fact is, most Muslims would love to see that kind of thing be the reality again: It would mean good jobs.
It's a relatively small percentage, the Wahabi sect based in Saudi Arabia, that is causing all the trouble. As much as you hate Islamic terrorist groups, most Muslims really really hate the Islamic terrorist groups, and the reason is that the Islamic terrorist groups target other Muslims at least as much as they do Christians and other Westerners. As a simple example, the overwhelming majority of the people who've taken up arms against ISIS are Muslims.
Also worth mentioning: The instructions for Muslims from various leaders only have as much authority as Muslims give those instructions. It's sort of like how the Catholic Church says "Don't use condoms or any other kind of birth control, ever." but Catholics around the world do anyways.
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:48AM (9 children)
Only about 1% of Catholic adults aged 25 to 45 have 7 or more kids. Clearly, you're right about 99% of the Catholics.
Let's suppose you are equally right about moslems. Only 1% of them bother to slaughter infidels. The other 99% of them are less faithful to their religion.
That means only about 35,000 in the USA, and only about 10,000,000 in the world, who take violent action to exterminate people like me. Can you see a problem?
(Score: 3, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:56AM
Yeah, you suck at statistics. Big problem.
(Score: 5, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:04AM (7 children)
Perspective: given that in 2013 there were 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" [wikipedia.org], I don't see islam as your biggest problem. In America you are more likely to be killed by a white American man than a Muslim [vox.com].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:16AM (3 children)
Unless you're black, then statistically your biggest worry is other black men.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 2) by MostCynical on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:48AM (1 child)
Isn't it the police?
"I guess once you start doubting, there's no end to it." -Batou, Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex
(Score: 2, Informative) by The Mighty Buzzard on Thursday April 19 2018, @10:53AM
Not remotely, no. Black men are only very slightly more likely to be shot by the cops during the commission of a crime than white folks. They're a hell of a lot more likely to be killed by another black man than any other form of non-accidental/natural death.
My rights don't end where your fear begins.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:32AM
Or you are a tribal member, when, well, you will probably be killed.
(Score: -1, Flamebait) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:19AM (2 children)
Moslems make more moslems, creating exponential growth. That 35,000 or whatever (calculation was 1% of 1% of the US population) is not static. It increases as the number of moslems increases, at least until we run out of infidels to be killed.
Gun owners generally have small families. Guns themselves don't reproduce; there is no exponential growth. Also: some of those people needed killing, and some of those people would have been killed by other methods if there were no guns, and many other deaths were stopped by somebody showing a gun or by the knowledge that a gun could be encountered.
37,461 people were killed by cars. Since cars have no constitutional protection, we can start by getting rid of them, though again there is no exponential growth. Cars do not reproduce.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:21AM
Citation needed WRT exponential growth
(Score: 3, Interesting) by TheRaven on Thursday April 19 2018, @08:38AM
That depends somewhat on your definitions. By their own definition, the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter-Day Saints is the fastest-growing religion, because whenever someone converts they treat all of their ancestors as being retroactively converted at the same time (which is why they keep such good genealogical records). Similarly, though to a lesser extent, Islam does not recognise the ability to convert from Islam, so if you are born a muslim then you remain one for the rest of your live. That doesn't mean much if they're eating bacon and don't even know where their nearest mosque is.
There's a story about someone going through UK immigration and putting 'atheist' under religion, then being asked if they mean 'Church of England atheist or atheist atheist'. A lot of people self identify as a particular religion but couldn't tell you the basic tenets of that faith and don't practice any of the rituals that it requires. Islam is no different in this respect.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:56AM (49 children)
but members of ALL OTHER RELIGIONS converted, or were put to death.
And, I see no mention of the jisra. It was "legal" to be Christian or Jewish, so long as you paid the Muslims not to kill you. Miss a payment, and you lost your life. Nor do you mention that Muslims have always been permitted to steal the daughters of anyone living in or near Islam. We see that happening repeatedly in Africa today - Muslims show up at a girl's school, and steal girls by the hundreds.
Please, stop apologizing for Islam. I don't waste people's time apologizing for the atrocities committed by Christians. Massacre after massacre of Native Americans - and you don't hear me trying to justify any of them. "It was for their own good! The savages had to be subdued or annihilated!"
Islam is approximately what the west might be if we had subscribed to that "White Man's burden" bullshit. Islam is in many ways comparable to Nazism and the Third Reich.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:20AM (27 children)
You mean jizyah [wikipedia.org], by chance?
Look, Trump promised he'll tale you only 20% or so tax. By comparison:
Equiv of 10days/year, yeah? By a modern (civilized) interpretation of working day, one has 200 wd/year. 10 wd/200wd = 5% tax.
Even Trump takes more taxes from you than the Abbasid caliphs, and delivers less protection to you for the money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:32AM (24 children)
Yeah, the jism tax - that's it. And, it doesn't matter that the tax might be a very small tax - no rat bastard has the right or authority to take my money because I believe differently than he does.
Meanwhile - you're ignoring the fact that non-Abrahamic religions were converted or killed. They weren't even asked for a tax. Convert or die.
Islam is a savage, barbarian religion because Mohammed was a savage barbarian. Christianity has been savage and barbaric, but, again, they have been that way IN SPITE OF Christ's teachings, not because Christ ordered it. Few direct comparisons can be drawn between the religions, so long as that basic fact is ignored.
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:49AM (23 children)
But you get protection for it. Against enemies from outside and inside.
The kind of you coreligionists in US govts are supposed to (and fail) - but yes, you are happy to pay for your religion brother, right!
Like the Christians and other did with the natives in Americas?
Besides, from the linked above:
---
I'll take those as opinions, not facts. Your opinions, more precisely, and likely - based on the assertions of "they killed all not People of the Book religions" - not well informed opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:03AM (13 children)
Let us discuss this again, right after the next Battle of Tours.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @04:47AM (12 children)
Down this path, you may also encounter the next fall of Constantinople [wikipedia.org]. Are you sure want to follow it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1) by tftp on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:17AM (2 children)
If you were Constantin, would you surrender?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:45AM
You are missing the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Interesting) by bzipitidoo on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:05PM
Hell yes, I'd surrender, and hope for mercy and generous terms. Constantinople was doomed. It had been on borrowed time for about an entire century by then. There was no conceivable path to a military win, or even a standoff that would allow the city to continue as it was for many more years. No Crusade, no friendly navy (sure, the Venetians wanted to help but they weren't enough, not by a long stretch), nor anything else capable of doing so was on the way to lift the siege, and there was no hope of raising a Byzantine army, not with almost all the former Byzantine territory lost. Walls have never lasted long. They are only good for buying a little time for relief to arrive, or for ill prepared attackers to run short of supplies or be distracted by some other problem and have to leave or never even show up in the first place, and that had already happened a couple of times and saved Byzantine asses for several decades. It wasn't going to happen again. Walls hold only a few months at most, and then the attackers will be able to do anything they want. Sure, the attackers might refuse to honor the terms of a surrender and slaughter everyone anyway, but history records that they didn't negotiate in bad faith if anything it was the Byzantines who did that. They were infamous for their treachery. And the attackers would soon be able slaughter everyone regardless, and without being guilty of breaking an agreement.
Constantinople was a capital without an empire. The writing was on the wall, had been on the wall for decades by then, decades in which the Byzantines totally failed to find or take any way out of their predicament. By then, holding out was stupid, fanatic refusal to give even one inch, worse stubbornness and fanaticism than that displayed by the Muslim attackers. They were too wrapped up in their Christian dogma, and the pride of being the capital of one of the greatest empires in history, the Roman Empire.
For a contemporaneous comparison, consider the Fall of Granada in 1492. The Muslims surrendered, and walked out.
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:15PM (1 child)
Your options are:
1) Be enslaved and raped, possibly to death
or
2) Set yourself on fire
Which do you choose with muslims outside your city walls about to come in?
Sadly, the fate of civilians in war has often been harsh, perhaps even more so in the past. Men would invariably be killed, and children were often sold into slavery. As for the women, they might be raped and then killed, or sometimes taken as prizes by the victors. One practice was developed by the Rajputs of India in order to prevent such a fate from befalling their queens and noble women. This rite was called Jauhar
(Score: 4, Informative) by DeathMonkey on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:43PM
1) Be enslaved and raped, possibly to death
or
2) Set yourself on fire
We're talking about the Christian persecution of the Buddhists in Vietnam here, right? [wikipedia.org]
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:43PM (6 children)
Are you catching on? History repeats itself, often enough. Those who fail to learn from history, are condemned to relive history - or words close enough not to matter. Look around you. All over the world, all over Europe, you can see the vanguard of the next Muslim armies. Evicting the Muslims from Europe - or most of Europe - the last time around was costly. But, you don't even recognize those vanguards.
The majority of Muslims "immigrating" into Europe are military aged males. That means nothing to you?
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:11PM (5 children)
Absolutely nothing. Should it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Touché) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:24PM (4 children)
HINT: The American west was settled primarily by military aged males, of European stock.
(Score: 4, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:52PM (3 children)
Those "immigrants" got in Europe as the result of USA pumping, in the Middle East, discontent and arms to go with it [independent.co.uk]
This happened after a certain ape alpha female bumped her flat chest following the destabilization of a country and eliminating the only non-tribal government, by propping up US own enemy [telegraph.co.uk]. Yeap, the Italians should know who to thank for the extra refugees.
The above coming after the idiotic US-led finance engineering wiped out a good part of the world economy.
Of course, this coming on top of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq before that.
HINT: perhaps those military aged males should have better stayed in the American west they settled. As a matter of perspective, facts suggest that US interventionism and adventurism is a higher risk factor for this world than Muslims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 1, Troll) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:13PM (2 children)
You're coming around, slowly. You have just admitted that Islam is indeed a risk factor for the world we live in. Given time, we might arrive at some sort of agreement regarding the relative risk posed by the Five Eyes nations, and Islam. Of course, about that time, we'll have to weigh those risks against other risks, like China.
Can we at least agree that those clever upright simians are fucking dangerous? A few are less dangerous than others, but they are all dangerous.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @04:38PM (1 child)
Fucking? You wish, old man, but long gone are the times for fucking.
Dangerous? Salmonella is dangerous too, and believe it or not, I haven't soiled my pants neither on Salmonalla's account not on the account of simians danger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:27PM
Runaway has. He's kind of the Ted Nugent of Arkansas.
(Score: 5, Insightful) by Azuma Hazuki on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:27AM (8 children)
He's not that far off, you know. I disagree with him about Jesus, though; the guy was a nutter. Thing is, he was more of a harmless hippie nutter, compared to Mohammed who was a Charles Manson nutter. This makes a world of difference when one is the founder of a religion.
I am "that girl" your mother warned you about...
(Score: 1, Funny) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @04:59AM
He was a gentle soul, according to the folks around West Hollywood. [google.com]
(He just died a few months ago.)
Word is, he was good with the laying on of hands thing (a part-time masseur).
-- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]
(Score: 5, Interesting) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:06AM (6 children)
Yeah, right. Like not. Ask the Americas native population and most of the Africa's.
Heck, ask the East Christians in Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Funny) by aristarchus on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:45AM (2 children)
Still hurts, eh, c0lo? Ferking Frankish!! Which is, after all, a Germanic tribe.
(Score: 3, Funny) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:07AM (1 child)
You know what hurts most? The Venetians, the mercantile bastards, they should have known better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by aristarchus on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:27AM
Agreed. But, you know, mercantile and mercenary derive from the same root. The root of all evil. And don't get me started on the Genoese in Greece!
(Score: 3, Insightful) by Phoenix666 on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:38PM (1 child)
Buddhists and Bahai seem to have performed pretty well by that standard, though maybe the Bahai don't really count because they were never in charge of a large military power. Buddhists don't seem to have engaged in mass slaughter though, so maybe the original point about the character of a religion's founder is not completely disproven.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 3, Informative) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:19PM
Hmmm... really, none whatsoever? [wikipedia.org]
See also Bodu Bala Sena - the Buddhist talibans of Sri Lanka [wikipedia.org]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:30PM
You are vilely slandering the Goths, at least the Visigoths. They did their best to retain the city of Rome. The Roman government, however, would not honor it's own treaties. Eventually they did sack Rome. I think that was the third time they conquered it. Even then they spared the Churches. Sparing the Churches was foolish though as the priests were a big part of the problem. This is because the Goths were Arian Christian rather than Roman Catholic.
Now the Lombards probably deserve the reputation you are assigning to the Goths. I'm not sure about the Ostrogoths.
P.S.: This seems to disagree with the first result that I get from a Google search, but I still believe it. Alaric was the leader of the Visigoths. Perhaps the Vandals later sacked Rome, but I doubt it, as I think they were in Spain before crossing over to Africa.
Javascript is what you use to allow unknown third parties to run software you have no idea about on your computer.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:03PM (1 child)
These days we call it "halal certification". Welcome to multi cultural Australia. Make yourself at home.
(Score: 2) by c0lo on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:11PM
The halal Paki's shop where I buy the lamb barbeque chops on my way home from the office is top quality and medium prices, thank you.
Guess what? Unlike the previous owners, who closed at 17:30, they keep opened 'til 21:00 - of course they keep me as client.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoFiw2jMy-0 https://soylentnews.org/~MichaelDavidCrawford
(Score: 3, Informative) by Thexalon on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:58AM (7 children)
You pick any religion that is not completely pacifist, and I'll name an atrocity that people professing and citing that religion has committed. I can do the same for atheism, too: The Soviets in particular tried to kill off religious opposition.
I'm not objecting to the claim "Muslims have committed atrocities". I'm objecting to the claim "All Muslims are irredeemably evil and violent", which many many bigoted westerners firmly believe.
Meanwhile, in the Christian world, if you weren't Christian, you were put to death. And if you were the wrong kind of Christian (e.g. the Arians), you weren't considered Christian, and put to death. Heck, Christians were killing each other over being the wrong kind of Christian as recently as the 1990's. By comparison, the Abbasids were fairly reasonable. A good example of the difference was the treatment of Jews in Muslim Spain versus Christian Spain: The Christians were the ones that tried to wipe out the Jewish communities via the Inquisition.
The big problems in the Muslim world as it stands now really has 2 causes:
1. After the height of the Abbasids, some backwards thinkers started getting worried about the scientists discovering things that would contradict the Koran and other holy dogmas (sound familiar?), so between them and the Mongol invasion all that scientific stuff got pretty well shut down, leaving the people of the region in general embracing ignorance in a way that much of the rest of the world doesn't.
2. Western governments trying to set up the political structures of the Middle East to suit their own purposes without regard for the people living there. Those structures were and still are often brutally repressive dictatorships and monarchies. Torture, summary execution, firing into crowds of protesters, and numerous other atrocities are carried out by these governments while those governments remain firmly allied with Western states, including the US. The Western governments basically just want the oil and natural gas at a price their international oil cartels like. The people getting stomped on to make that happen turn to religion because it's the only structure they have with which to fight back. (Also worth mentioning: The only thing that makes Israel a bit different from the rest of 'em is that they have the backing of the US due in no small part to *their* sometimes-violent religious nutjobs.)
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:22AM (1 child)
Well 'set up' is a bit strong, more like co-opt and bribe. Mostly accurate.
Accurate
Accurate
WTF? You lost me. The corrupt governments in the middle east *USE* religion to control the people getting stomped on.
Israel has an undue amount of influence in the US due to heavy lobbying and controlling investments in mainstream media outlets. Israel uses the US to magnify its control in the region, while the US encourages this to keep tension up in the middle east ... ensuring the other 'friendly' dictatorships don't change their position and keep enjoying the bribes ...
(Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday April 19 2018, @11:46AM
Corrupt governments are not the only users of religion.
(Score: 2) by TheRaven on Thursday April 19 2018, @08:46AM
To put that in perspective, Queen Elizabeth I of England is regarded by history as being a supporter of religious tolerance because in her rule she stopped the burning of people for being the wrong kind of Christian and introduced a small fine for people who did not go to Church (any flavour of Christian church). These policies were far more lenient towards people who were not members of the state-sanctioned brand of Christianity than most of Europe at the time.
Her reign was 1558-1603, beginning 41 years after the fall of the Abbasid Caliphate.
sudo mod me up
(Score: 1, Informative) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @08:52AM (1 child)
From very near seats to that particular events, I must correct you: that is common misconception.
The killings were not between religious, but ethnic groups, who had many small differences in identity, largest one being the name (tautologically, the identity itself), but also having many common traits, most prominent being common language, believed by some to have grown apart (or stayed apart never becoming one nation) due to being of different faiths or Christian denomination.
In 1990's religious differences meant squat, and although the folks we are talking about claim to be religious, they clearly "wear" their respective religions like symbols of ethnic/national identity and have little to no interest in spirituality.
1990's were not fault of religion and were not dictated by religious dogma. Religion was just a decoration there, and a starter topic for showing intollerance. Main cause were historical debts, who did what to whom last time (WWII), and who was being traitor/ungrateful/didn't pay historical debts for ones wrongdoings in the past/wanted to dictate others how to live/ ... and there was a lot intentional poking of fingers in each others eyes in order to provoke the rip and extinguish any remnants of good will and friendliness or desire to mingle or even, God forbid, to stay together.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:41PM
It's often true that religion has been used by those with other goals to foment strife. The religion hasn't usually been primary.
E.g.: The Spanish Inquisition was sponsored by the government as a way to rip of the wealth of the Jews, and then continued against prosperous christians. It was first merely condoned by the Church, but then as the Church saw it as a way to get money, they pretty much took it over and continued it. Similarly in France against returning Crusaders. (Can't have too much sympathy for them, considering how they got their money in the first place.)
Similar events have frequently been used in less organized ways to reclaim any wealth had by social outcasts, e.g. old women. Sometimes there has been a sexual element. Frequently wealthy young women were the target, rarely men.
So if you say that the underlying reason wasn't religious arguments, I'll accept that. This doesn't mean that religion wasn't used as the, or a, justifier.
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(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @01:32PM (1 child)
Citation needed. I went looking into that inquisition story, long ago. It just wasn't what it is portrayed as. There weren't tens of thousand of people put to death. Certainly not hundreds of thousands. Don't even try the millions. There were possibly thousands of people put to death by the inquisitors. More likely just several hundreds.
If the Jews suffered a pogrom during the inquisition years, I don't think we can just lump it in as part of the inquisition. Jews were attacked off and on throughout the centuries in Europe. They were attacked in all countries, and probably all cities. If there is any place in Europe that DID NOT blame the Jews for witchcraft, summoning demons, stealing money, or whatever, I'm not aware of that place. But, you'll have to demonstrate how and why the inquisitors decided to genocide the Jews. The claim doesn't stand on it's own.
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:53PM
You're partially right. The numbers weren't as large as normally stated. It wasn't in the same league as Pot Pol. And most Jews were allowed to buy their way off...as long as they gave up all their wealth and fled. But some were believed to be more wealthy than was accurate, and they died of that belief.
OTOH, the inquisition lasted a long time, and was incredibly vile. Anyone who reads the part played in that by the Church and remains a member of a Christian Church is not religious, only socially conformist. (I would make exception for some modern groups like the Unitarian-Universalists, who have explicitly renounced many former doctrines. But not for the Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, and many other similar groups I haven't looked at. I can accept that a Unitarian is a religious Christian.)
The Inquisition was basically a money stealing scam with religious backing. But the popular belief was that the religious backing was the reason. So I can't let the "religion" off the hook, and I certainly can't let the organizations that promulgated it while claiming love for humanity off the hook. The governmental participation was much less hypocritical. They didn't really hide that they were in it for the loot, not if you looked behind political speeches. (As far as political speeches, though, they lied as thoroughly as any modern politician. One should never believe a politician's speeches. Watch what they do/have done.)
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(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @03:56AM (6 children)
Citation please? Because I think you are spinning the actions of those abductors for your own disingenuous arguments.
Again, citation for their motive please.
(Score: 4, Interesting) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @02:04PM (5 children)
Fair enough. Our media pussyfoots around the issue, never really addressing it. Al Jazeera knows these people far better than our mass media moguls.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/04/nigeria-kidnapped-girls-sold-into-marriage-2014430174029374520.html [aljazeera.com]
"Some of them (the kidnapped girls) have been married off to insurgents. A medieval kind of slavery. You go and capture women and then sell them off."
Trophy wives. Mohammed said it was perfectly alright to enslave an enemy's women, to take them in "marriage". Do with them as you will, they are yours, a reward for winning the battle.
(Score: 2) by tangomargarine on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:12PM (4 children)
One of these assumptions must be wrong.
1) the girls were kidnapped by Boko Haram
2) the girls were sold to Boko Haram
Surely BH can't be selling them to itself? Or the head honchos are selling them to their underlings?
"Is that really true?" "I just spent the last hour telling you to think for yourself! Didn't you hear anything I said?"
(Score: 2) by Runaway1956 on Thursday April 19 2018, @10:00PM (2 children)
No, actually, the two statements aren't mutually exclusive. My employer often has special little sales, in which products are made available to employees, but not the outside community. Other local employers do the same. Pilgrim's, for instance, has a store in a nearby town, in which they sell bulk products to their own employees.
Your final question nails the situation. In the case under discussion, Boko Haram, conducts a raid, and captures a bunch of young women. They have a "salable product", but no readily accessible market. Boko Haram leadership decides to sell the product to it's own employees. And, of course, the military age males find these young women of child bearing age attractive - SOLD! "Sure, Boss, you can keep my wages for the last three months - I'll take that little hotty with the doe eyes!"
(Score: -1, Troll) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 20 2018, @09:15AM
Wholey shit!!! Runaway's employer is involved in the sales of young girls??? And this makes Boko Haram legit? OMG! Or at least some God!!! Runaway, you need to find a new job, because where you are is putting you in danger of complicity in human trafficing. And clearly the toxic work environment is corroding you mind, as evident in your posts here. Type "I served on a Destroyer" if you need help. We will get a crack team of Soylentils right down there to extract you, you poor thing.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday April 21 2018, @08:12AM
Boko Haram gets no press coverage from this event.
Next time Boko Haram conducts a raid, it captures all the little girls.
Get your history right.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 1, Troll) by FatPhil on Saturday April 21 2018, @08:15AM
That is as stupid a statement as "surely English companies can't be selling (imported in this case) things to English buyers!!?!?1!??!yks!".
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2, Flamebait) by aristarchus on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:38AM (3 children)
Really, Runaway, you need to just stop saying anything about Islam. You are being used, mislead (which is easy because you are both uneducated and not too bright), and weaponized by certain organizations who seek to overthrow the United States. Everything you say is incorrect, because of your sources. It is, as often I have tried to tell you, making you look stupid. Stop looking stupid, Runaway. Stop commenting on things you do not understand.
(Yes, I do realize that this would require you to stop commenting at all. And, yes, I do understand that you have no idea of what you do not understand, due to one of the most severe cases of Dunning-Kroeger's ever documented. But, do the best you can. Don't comment on Islam, that would be a good start. Laser engravers can come later.)
(Score: 0, Offtopic) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @08:32AM
You can go and look at pictures from Iran or Afghanistan in the '60s and compare with current pictures after resurgent Islam. 7th Century barbarism is not a civilising force and it's shocking that some on the left refuse to understand. Laying the blame for radicalism at the feet of Western intervention does not change the nature of the beast.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:06PM (1 child)
Have you read the koran?
(Score: 2) by HiThere on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:59PM
Have *you* read the Bible?
I had to read the whole thing as a kid, and it basically repeatedly turned my stomach. The Koran is about the same, only slightly worse.
Now if people would restrict themselves the the four Gospels, then I'd have much less to say against using the Bible as a source for morality. But they don't.
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(Score: 2) by PiMuNu on Thursday April 19 2018, @09:29AM (1 child)
Actually, a lot of native americans, in the East at least, were pretty horrible. Many didn't have a concept of "surrender", which led to some pretty horrific stuff going on in e.g. the seven years war where (mostly) the French used them as ancillaries.
(Score: 2) by Phoenix666 on Thursday April 19 2018, @12:46PM
They were pretty horrible throughout. Through North America, Meso-America, and South America. They massacred indiscriminately, kept slaves, practiced human sacrifice, did drugs, you name it. In other words they were like everyone else everywhere else.
In fact the Indians that taught the Pilgrims how to grow corn and hunt turkeys and everything else were a band of Algonquins who were on their last legs thanks to inter-tribal warfare with other Algonquins and Iroquois to the west and disease contracted through earlier contact with Basque fishermen and other European scouts; they thought helping the Pilgrims would gain them new allies that would change their fortunes, and for a while they did (the Pilgrims came to call their chief, "King Phillip") until the European settlers gained enough strength to dispossess and eradicate the poor Indians entirely.
Washington DC delenda est.
(Score: 2) by PocketSizeSUn on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:40AM
Unfortunately the prerequisite condition is that the Caliphate must hold all power and cannot share power with non-Muslims, as that is incompatible with the Quran.
Meaning that you can be non-Muslim and live in a Caliphate, but expect no more rights and privileges than an illegal immigrant has in the US today. Sure some sub-district in the Caliphate could be run like California where you can even hold a political appointment. For the vast majority it will be exactly like living in a red state with high unemployment without documentation and few prospects.
Cite: https://www.meforum.org/articles/2016/muslim-aversion-to-non-muslim-rule-and-the-jakarta [meforum.org]
(Score: 1) by loonycyborg on Thursday April 19 2018, @07:25AM
But the culture of the Abbasid Caliphate has died long time ago. Today's "muslims" would be considered munafiqun [wikipedia.org] then. They most definitely shirked their duty to promote progress and knowledge. Their current stance on freedom of religion would sound insane to their ancestors who lived in middle ages. Muhammad originally fought for freedom of religion against pagan arabs locked into their dogmas, thus locking down ultimate "truth" and executing people for looking for it beyond Islam would be considered extreme even by him because it basically returns things to how they were in preislamic times. It doesn't matter in which dogmas you're locked in: arabic paganism or tortured and misrepresented legacy of Muhammad.
(Score: 3, Interesting) by FatPhil on Thursday April 19 2018, @11:08AM (4 children)
Are they prepared to tear out the pages that support ISIS from their korans?
If they're not prepared to fix their religion, they're complicit.
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves
(Score: 2) by DeathMonkey on Thursday April 19 2018, @05:48PM (3 children)
Are they prepared to tear out the pages that support ISIS from their korans?
You mean the old testament? Hint: That's in the Bible too.
(Score: 2) by looorg on Thursday April 19 2018, @06:13PM
That God is awesome. We know a few things about "him", he really has a hard-on for smiting and he likes BBQ.
(Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 20 2018, @05:38AM
Isis is in the bible? Surly she predates the bible by 2 to 3 thousand years.
(Score: 2) by FatPhil on Saturday April 21 2018, @08:09AM
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people; the smallest discuss themselves