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posted by martyb on Wednesday May 02 2018, @04:54PM   Printer-friendly
from the GIGantic-decision dept.

In a ruling with potentially sweeping consequences for the so-called gig economy, the California Supreme Court on Monday made it much more difficult for companies to classify workers as independent contractors rather than employees.

The decision could eventually require companies like Uber, many of which are based in California, to follow minimum-wage and overtime laws and to pay workers' compensation and unemployment insurance and payroll taxes, potentially upending their business models.

Industry executives have estimated that classifying drivers and other gig workers as employees tends to cost 20 to 30 percent more than classifying them as contractors. It also brings benefits that can offset these costs, though, like the ability to control schedules and the manner of work.

"It's a massive thing — definitely a game-changer that will force everyone to take a fresh look at the whole issue," said Richard Meneghello, a co-chairman of the gig-economy practice group at the management-side law firm Fisher Phillips.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/30/business/economy/gig-economy-ruling.html


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  • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:14PM (30 children)

    by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:14PM (#674664)

    Translation: Pay your employees less than minimum wage, and demand they provide all their own tools for the privilege of working for you. For some reason, that drops your costs quite a bit.

    --
    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
    Starting Score:    1  point
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  • (Score: 5, Insightful) by bzipitidoo on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:39PM (6 children)

    by bzipitidoo (4388) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:39PM (#674672) Journal

    Quite. Employers have been getting away with this 1099 stuff and no health care for decades. They don't want a national health care system because they like to use employer provided health care as another hold over their employees. Then they try to weasel out of paying for the health care, with 1099 being one of the ways.

    A long time ago I heard that 1099 pay should be 1.5 times W2 pay to compensate for all the things 1099ers don't receive. I don't think 1.5x is enough.

    Employment needs reform. We've got a robot apocalypse coming, and if we had any brains, we'd try to get ahead of the curve on that. The current reactionary moves, like pushing more and more people into this "gig economy", are only making things worse. Bull is so ingrained in the system it's a wonder it hasn't broken yet. Employers have gotten a nasty and all too well-deserved reputation for heartlessness and harshness, thinking of workers as disposable and easily replaceable, like, as the expression goes, cogs in a machine.

    • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:00PM (2 children)

      by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:00PM (#674682)

      thinking of workers as disposable and easily replaceable

      The fact is, they are. Intentionally so, I might add: If unemployment gets too low in any profession, they go to the government and say "Waaa, you need to make the economy suck more and/or make immigration easier so that we can hire people more easily." And (possibly after some campaign donations) they get what they want.

      Karl Marx also wrote about this phenomenon: The concept of a "reserve army of labor" was that basically the underclass and underemployed people are there to replace any working class person at any moment, and as technology improves this underclass becomes larger and larger, making life harder and harder on the people lucky enough to have jobs.

      --
      The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 5, Informative) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:08PM

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:08PM (#674688)

        Oh, and a quick followup: Don't think you're safe from this because your job is white-collar and requires education. What do you think the ever-increasing H-1B phenomenon is all about? And they're going after doctors, scientists, academics, engineers, etc. They would be doing it with lawyers, too, but there's already about 1/3 of law school graduates being unable to work in law.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
      • (Score: 1, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:15PM

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:15PM (#674739)

        ...[the Capitalist Ownership Class will] go to the government and say "[...]make immigration easier"

        Our undamped pendulum of a Chief Executive, in his usual ignorant swinging-from-one-extreme-to-another mode recently pulled a move that will apparently put a chill on importing knowledgeable people.

        Immigrants on highly-skilled visas, as well as their [domestic] partners, are the targets of an under-the-radar effort to weed out foreign workers. [thinkprogress.org]

        A report [PDF] [netdna-ssl.com] released [April 24][1] by the Silicon Valley-backed immigration lobbying group FWD.us lays out the White House’s ongoing assault on immigration more broadly, as well as under-the-radar efforts targeting documented immigrants specifically. Founded by Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Microsoft founder Bill Gates, the organization’s report argues that President Trump’s administration has made “immigration harder and more burdensome with the goal of reducing overall legal immigration.”

        Central to the analysis is the issue of H-1B visas, which are traditionally awarded to highly-skilled foreign workers, as well as H-4 visas, which allow their spouses to live in the United States with them.
        [...]
        "Rescinding [Obama's H-4 EAD provision] and removing tens of thousands of people from the American workforce would be devastating to their families and would hurt our economy", the report emphasizes.

        [1] I do wish that that site hadn't hired a nitwit who stripped from their pages all indications of publication dates. [google.com]

        -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

    • (Score: 1, Flamebait) by Entropy on Wednesday May 02 2018, @07:13PM (2 children)

      by Entropy (4228) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @07:13PM (#674708)

      1.5x is more than enough. You can deduct a TON of things under 10-99 that you can't under W2. You can basically deduct almost everything. Unfortunately Obama screwed up health care costs for everyone(healthy people, sick people) so that made health care about 5x what it was, but eventually that should return to a more normal figure.

      I'm sure you can find a field this isn't true in, of course. But it's true for quite a few. If you're in the technology field you can deduct your Internet, all computer related expenses, phone, cell phone. If you ever have to go anywhere business related you can deduct your car, car insurance. Health care is deductable, etc.

      • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:08PM (1 child)

        by Thexalon (636) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:08PM (#674735)

        You can deduct a TON of things under 10-99 that you can't under W2. You can basically deduct almost everything.

        Which only means something if your deductions come in over the standard deduction. Which, for a typical Uber driver, they don't.

        --
        The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
        • (Score: 2) by Entropy on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:33PM

          by Entropy (4228) on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:33PM (#674748)

          It's not all about Uber. But for starts their vehicle, cell phone, car insurance start it off pretty well..

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:41PM (15 children)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @05:41PM (#674674)

    By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get to be boss and work twelve. -- Robert Frost

    What is wrong with America is that many bosses are effectively working 4, and the employees are effectively working 12., with no chances for advancement without jumping ship to another vessel passing in the night. If they miss their window to jump, they are either stuck there until they're lucky enough to catch another passing ship to jump to, or until they fumble their jump and fall into the ocean of unemployment, hoping that someone will cast them a live preserver and drag them aboard a new ship that is better than their old one.

    • (Score: 2, Touché) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:01PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:01PM (#674683)

      or until they fumble their jump and fall into the ocean of unemployment, hoping that someone will cast them a live preserver and drag them aboard a new ship that is better than their old one.

      The ship will probably be shittier than the old one, plus good luck getting picked up at all. After all, if you were valuable, what are you doing in the ocean?

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:07PM (4 children)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @06:07PM (#674687)

        Let the existential terror of simply existing in the US commence! err, CONTINUE!

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:28PM (3 children)

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:28PM (#674771) Journal

          Let the existential terror of simply existing in the US commence! err, CONTINUE!

          What country again doesn't have existential terror? It's not like there is a country in the world where one's life can't be snuffed out in a moment.

          • (Score: 1, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:31PM

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:31PM (#674799)

            Are you threatening us, again, khallow? Please don't free market us!

          • (Score: 2, Insightful) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:47PM (1 child)

            by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:47PM (#674808)

            Ah yes, khallow the shit-equivocator.

            Well lets see, first off any country with universal healthcare! No worries about getting buried under a mountain of deb due to some medical issue beyond your control.

            Any country with decent services to help the unemployed / disabled, along with free education.

            Any country in the 20% range for World Bank GINI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality [wikipedia.org]

            Every country will have some problems that make life hard for its citizens, but there are better and worse places.

            Why do you always chime in on these topics? Just to try and make yourself feel better about living in a shitty country? Yes there are worse places than the US, but you obviously are stuck in a bubble or not paying attention to the every day reality of your fellow citizens. I can not overstate how horrible you are for always defending the worst shit and trying to make it seem like there is nothing better than the US.

            • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:04AM

              by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:04AM (#674841) Journal

              Well lets see, first off any country with universal healthcare! No worries about getting buried under a mountain of deb due to some medical issue beyond your control.

              Or you could get insurance that covers that. And universal health care turns threats for the individual into threats for the society. Government bankruptcy isn't usually an existential threat, but it's not something that goes away quickly either.

              Ah yes, khallow the shit-equivocator.

              Which was a quite valid equivocation, let us note. Treatable health problems aren't the only source of existential threats for a person (the poster I replied to implied otherwise) and thus, it is foolish to assume that the existence of health care would remove all existential threats.

              Any country in the 20% range for World Bank GINI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality [wikipedia.org]

              Ok, so what? Income inequality is a scam for dodging that absolute income has improved greatly and poverty gone down greatly.

              Every country will have some problems that make life hard for its citizens, but there are better and worse places.

              Equivocation alert!

              Why do you always chime in on these topics?

              Because you are ignorant and need help.

              I can not overstate how horrible you are for always defending the worst shit and trying to make it seem like there is nothing better than the US.

              And I can't overstate just how weak as your "worst shit" is. Oh dear, I defended the processes that have done the most over history (particularly, over recent history!) to elevation humans out of poverty and improve the human condition. I'm a Genghis Hitler for that!

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:26PM (5 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @08:26PM (#674742)

      You left out an important part of the picture:
      Republican-majority Congresses[1] since Reagan have cut and cut again funding for enforcement agencies.
      People who clearly aren't in management have been put on salary by USAian corps and required to work what amounts to unpaid overtime.

      In the extreme, you get what Japan has. [google.com]

      [1] ...with a single 2-year window--which O'Bummer squandered.

      -- OriginalOwner_ [soylentnews.org]

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:30PM (4 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:30PM (#674773) Journal

        In the extreme, you get what Japan has.

        Except, of course, Japan works less hours on average per week than the US does. Sure, the overworked salaryman exists, but they're only a part not the whole. The rest has more comfortable working hours.

        • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:33PM (3 children)

          by Thexalon (636) on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:33PM (#675108)

          It's true, they do work less than Americans do. And here's why: Workers unionized in the late 1980's and demanded a shorter work week. Just like how US wage-earners won the 40-hour work week slowly from the 1880's to the 1930's.

          --
          The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:42PM (2 children)

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:42PM (#675112) Journal

            And here's why: Workers unionized in the late 1980's and demanded a shorter work week.

            Japan has been heavily unionized since the 1950s. The unions just work with the businesses instead of against them.

            • (Score: 2) by Thexalon on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:02PM (1 child)

              by Thexalon (636) on Thursday May 03 2018, @04:02PM (#675125)

              Unions necessarily work against the businesses. It's inherent to the relationship. Workers, and by extension their unions, want to maximize wages/salary/benefits and minimize the work required to earn them. Bosses, and by extension the business, want to minimize wages/salary/benefits and maximize the work required to earn them. Those are diametrically opposed positions, by their very nature.

              Bosses do a lot of things to try to hide that aspect of the relationship, but it's always there.

              Don't believe me? Ask for a raise, right now.

              --
              The only thing that stops a bad guy with a compiler is a good guy with a compiler.
              • (Score: 1) by khallow on Friday May 18 2018, @12:18AM

                by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Friday May 18 2018, @12:18AM (#680940) Journal

                Unions necessarily work against the businesses.

                No, that's not true. As I noted, Japanese labor unions are such a counterexample.

                Workers, and by extension their unions, want to maximize wages/salary/benefits and minimize the work required to earn them. Bosses, and by extension the business, want to minimize wages/salary/benefits and maximize the work required to earn them. Those are diametrically opposed positions, by their very nature.

                Everyone has this conflict of interest. A lot have figured out how to cooperate with others who have different interests.

                And the positions aren't diametrically opposed. After all, they have a common interest in the business succeeding.

    • (Score: 1) by khallow on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:21PM (2 children)

      by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:21PM (#674767) Journal

      What is wrong with America is that many bosses are effectively working 4, and the employees are effectively working 12., with no chances for advancement without jumping ship to another vessel passing in the night.

      There are many such ships in the night. People already figured this out.

      • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:52PM (1 child)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:52PM (#674812)

        dumbass is dumb, news at 11

        The problem here is the mindset of most business owners who remove all humanity from the workplace. I cry tears of joy every time I read about some asshat of a boss getting screwed when a near irreplaceable employee finally quits. That same mindset is what is driving demand for H1Bs, which I'm pretty sure you really don't like. Thanks for trying to dilute the discussion as usual you trollish little scab.

        • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:05AM

          by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:05AM (#674842) Journal

          The problem here is the mindset of most business owners who remove all humanity from the workplace.

          Not much of a problem. Just don't work there.

  • (Score: 2, Interesting) by khallow on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:08PM (6 children)

    by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Wednesday May 02 2018, @09:08PM (#674762) Journal

    Translation: Pay your employees less than minimum wage, and demand they provide all their own tools for the privilege of working for you. For some reason, that drops your costs quite a bit.

    Why do the "employee" contractors go along with that? Because it is an agreement of mutual benefit. They gain as well. After all, they were going to have the tools anyway (such as a car for Uber). US employment is pretty fucked up. The "gig economy" is one way to route around that damage.

    But of course, let's help people by destroying their ability to improve their lives.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:56PM (3 children)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday May 02 2018, @10:56PM (#674815)

      Were you beaten with the clueless bat from birth?

      • (Score: 2, Insightful) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:07AM (2 children)

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @12:07AM (#674844) Journal
        Funny how ACs have so much trouble with the concept of choice. Gig economy outlets like Uber are crazy popular. It's not because the participants have no choice in the matter. They choose to get involved. Maybe you should shut your trap and think about why that is?
        • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:18PM (1 child)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @02:18PM (#675064)

          I'll point you to the comment directly below, maybe if you spent more time reading history uoud have a clue what I'm talking about. You are the ignorant one arguing from simplistic base assumptions here.

          • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:36PM

            by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:36PM (#675109) Journal

            I'll point you to the comment directly below

            Umm, there is no comment directly below.

            maybe if you spent more time reading history uoud have a clue what I'm talking about.

            And what are you talking about?

            You are the ignorant one arguing from simplistic base assumptions here.

            I'm interested in the correctness of these arguments not their complexity.

    • (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @06:03AM (1 child)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 03 2018, @06:03AM (#674959)

      Labor has always had the problem that they can't rationally refuse a demonstrably bad deal when the alternative is outright starvation.

      • (Score: 1) by khallow on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:37PM

        by khallow (3766) Subscriber Badge on Thursday May 03 2018, @03:37PM (#675110) Journal

        Labor has always had the problem that they can't rationally refuse a demonstrably bad deal when the alternative is outright starvation.

        The alternative is not outright starvation, that's a false dilemma. And since the obvious alternative is "get a different job", I think we're back to me.